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Thread: For Pakistan, terrorism is a state-sponsored business

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Not called milli muslim league any more i thought, after the state department put out its statement back in April. They changed the name to Allah Akbar tehreek or something : D

  3. #33
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Not called milli muslim league any more i thought, after the state department put out its statement back in April. They changed the name to Allah Akbar tehreek or something : D
    Yes, they changed the name to Allahu Akbar Tehreek.
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  4. #34
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    This is the oppositon's view to Modi's policy in Kashmir. That it plays into the ISI's hands. I don't entirely agree with that line.

    Not quite true is it, why then the need for shelling and infilitrating. Clearly operation all out is taking out their guys that have to be replaced some how
    An ISI ex-head is still a Pakistani, and noted journalists would do better if they at the very least try to learn from their established careers. It's sickening that Indians lap it up. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The part however that confuses me is the following
    What that means is - The ISI senses that the opposition is in a better position to wrest power from the BJP in 2019. So, increase the killings in Kashmir, so that the opposition can beat Modi with a hockey stick and Indians vote for the Congress. Not happening. And PSJha is very wrong when he says that - this may have been the final straw that made it take the decision to crush any possible revival of dialogue in Kashmir, by killing its current principal icon of peace - how long will it take Indians to understand that the PA/ISI feeds on death and killings? That, that is their successful business machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Ignore for a moment that Modi might lose the next election. How does this prospect influence the ISI wanting to crush any possible revivial of dialog in Kashmir ?
    The ISI, which is filled with regular and ex PA generals does not want peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    He even manages to blame Modi's Kashmir policy for creeping military rule in Pakistan
    This is why I say, people such as them are not fit to comment on Indo-Pak affairs.
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  6. #36
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    From the Wire link -
    Journalists have figured prominently on the ISI’s hit list, two of the most celebrated being Hamid Mir, the host of Geo TV’s ‘Capital Talk’, and Shahzad Saleem, the former bureau chief of Asia Times (online). Mir miraculously survived six bullets in his stomach because, knowing that an ISI car was following him, he drove straight to a hospital to seek shelter there, and was shot at its doorstep. Saleem was tortured and killed ten days after the publication of his book detailing links between the ISI, various rogue officers of the Pakistan army and terrorist organisations like the Tehrik-e-Taliban-i-Pakistan (TTP). In the same year, 12 other Pakistani journalists met a similar fate, though perhaps not all at the hands of the ISI.
    And what does the PA say about the TTP? That India funds it and Afghanistan shelters it. IIRC, I guessed on the possibility of the Peshawar school attack being a hatchet job of the PA/ISI. Seems that is the case. These people will never change.

    The story that killed Saleem Shahzad

    Pakistan’s Spies Tied to Slaying of a Journalist

    Pakistani journalist Saleem Shahzad found dead

    The Journalist And the Spies (Dexter is the guy whom Shahzad contacted to get him out of Pak before he was killed)
    Last edited by Oracle; 22 Jul 18, at 19:40.
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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    An ISI ex-head is still a Pakistani, and noted journalists would do better if they at the very least try to learn from their established careers. It's sickening that Indians lap it up. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.
    So Durrani is spreading disinformation then ? that would be disingenuous given he's on Track 2. Let's for a moment assume he is right.

    It gels with PA generals don't want peace.So Modi is a gift for them which then leads to the title that Modi is playing into the ISI's hands. Which then explains the oppositions view, which is you don't give the ISI what they want. If they want war, do not get baited. Talk peace instead. We did this for eight years and then gave up after 26/11. It frustrated them to a point where they started attacking us from all angles. This then leads to Modi's view of no talks and then retaliation.

    The opposition would then contend that Modi's Kashmir policy is no better than their own and that the difference being kashmiri youths weren't dying in the same numbers when they were in charge


    What that means is - The ISI senses that the opposition is in a better position to wrest power from the BJP in 2019. So, increase the killings in Kashmir, so that the opposition can beat Modi with a hockey stick and Indians vote for the Congress. Not happening. And PSJha is very wrong when he says that - this may have been the final straw that made it take the decision to crush any possible revival of dialogue in Kashmir, by killing its current principal icon of peace - how long will it take Indians to understand that the PA/ISI feeds on death and killings? That, that is their successful business machine.
    It's possible people won't vote for Modi because of his Kashmir policy. But Jha is suggesting ISI wants whatever administration to understand that peace is not an option. In other words they want the Modi policy to continue whether he's in power or not. As it helps their narrative that India is a threat to Pakistan and helps their Kashmir narrative

    Make any sense ?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Jul 18, at 20:08.

  8. #38
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So Durrani is spreading disinformation then ? that would be disingenuous given he's on Track 2. Let's for a moment assume he is right.

    It gels with PA generals don't want peace.So Modi is a gift for them which then leads to the title that Modi is playing into the ISI's hands. Which then explains the oppositions view, which is you don't give the ISI what they want. If they want war, do not get baited. Talk peace instead. We did this for eight years and then gave up after 26/11. It frustrated them to a point where they started attacking us from all angles. This then leads to Modi's view of no talks and then retaliation.

    The opposition would then contend that Modi's Kashmir policy is no better than their own and that the difference being kashmiri youths weren't dying in the same numbers when they were in charge
    Since PA doesn't want peace, what's the use of talks? Talks and terrorism cannot go hand in hand. We should kill more. Kill every tango that comes from across the border as well as local terrorists. How long can the PA sustain Pakistan? We've got bullets, let's make full use of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    It's possible people won't vote for Modi because of his Kashmir policy. But Jha is suggesting ISI wants whatever administration to understand that peace is not an option. In other words they want the Modi policy to continue whether he's in power or not. As it helps their narrative that India is a threat to Pakistan and helps their Kashmir narrative

    Make any sense ?
    Yes. Good for us. They come, we kill. And sometimes we cross the borders and kill their handlers too.

    People will not vote for Modi, for not generating enough jobs, the economy, the lynchings, and not because of his hawkish Pak policy.
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  9. #39
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Since PA doesn't want peace, what's the use of talks? Talks and terrorism cannot go hand in hand. We should kill more. Kill every tango that comes from across the border as well as local terrorists. How long can the PA sustain Pakistan? We've got bullets, let's make full use of them.
    Whether it gets worse is the question

    This "new militancy" in Kashmir has started showing trends similar to that of the old militancy of the 1990s. It started with one militant group —the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front — and eventually spiralled out of control with the involvement of more than a dozen others. Similarly, what started off with one social media post by Wani turned monstrous both in terms of its scale and impact.

    Even though the number of active militants is still low in comparison to the numbers seen in the 1990s, these 250-odd combatants have the whole of South Kashmir on edge to the extent that the parliamentary constituency of Anantnag has been vacant since chief minister Mehbooba Mufti left the seat. Bypolls for the seat were called off in the wake of the security situation, and the government has failed to call an election since.

    With the brutal killing of mainstream figures like Bukhari, the clearly diminishing space for conventional politics in Kashmir and growing militancy, the question that must be haunting the establishments of both the state and New Delhi is now this: "Is it possible to even hold the 2019 elections in the state of Jammu and Kashmir?"
    Well, lets see how many we got in 2017. Around 200.

    Now compare with the 1990's figures

    Name:  militants.JPG
Views: 308
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    Fact Sheet on Jammu & Kashmir | MEA | May 20, 2002

    It was much higher then. I doubt we'll see such high figures this time around because the militants can't recruit people in their 20s & 30s any more thanks to that last insurgency. Now its teens and below only

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Whether it gets worse is the question



    Well, lets see how many we got in 2017. Around 200.

    Now compare with the 1990's figures

    Name:  militants.JPG
Views: 308
Size:  59.4 KB

    Fact Sheet on Jammu & Kashmir | MEA | May 20, 2002

    It was much higher then. I doubt we'll see such high figures this time around because the militants can't recruit people in their 20s & 30s any more thanks to that last insurgency. Now its teens and below only
    How worse can it get?

    #1. Could it get more worse than the Kunduz airlift, when Taliban and Al-Qaida operatives were air-lifted in the 1000s by the PA/ISI, from right under the nose of the CIA/NATO?

    #2. Worse than Bin Laden got killed in Abottabad, Pakistan, and the first thing Kiyani (COAS) thought was that the Americans came for their nukes?

    #3. Worse than the duplicity that PA/ISI has earned for Pakistan?

    India doesn't need to care much about foreign press or even local ones. This is national security imperative that any number of terrorists who land up in Indian soil gets whacked. If India cannot change the discourse in 4-5 districts of Kashmir, India is free to fire. What will hold India back? Bitching by the terrorist state of Pakistan?
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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Army seeks SC probe into IHC judge's allegations

    In other countries the Government (in this case care-taker GoP) initiates probe, in Pak the Army does that.

    22 Balochistan candidates pull out of electoral race

    Bomb and kill them to submission.
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  12. #42
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    How worse can it get?

    #1. Could it get more worse than the Kunduz airlift, when Taliban and Al-Qaida operatives were air-lifted in the 1000s by the PA/ISI, from right under the nose of the CIA/NATO?

    #2. Worse than Bin Laden got killed in Abottabad, Pakistan, and the first thing Kiyani (COAS) thought was that the Americans came for their nukes?

    #3. Worse than the duplicity that PA/ISI has earned for Pakistan?

    India doesn't need to care much about foreign press or even local ones. This is national security imperative that any number of terrorists who land up in Indian soil gets whacked. If India cannot change the discourse in 4-5 districts of Kashmir, India is free to fire. What will hold India back? Bitching by the terrorist state of Pakistan?
    The guys coming across the border are in the minority. What the opposition is pointing out is more local boys are being killed. The reasons by the state are clear to me and i don't argue against them. There are costs if you want to take up arms so this will serve to discourage others from joining. This is the objective. But in the short term the opposite is happening meaning the actions of the state are leading to more being recruited. So getting worse means casualty numbers rise for the perps and becomes self reinforcing.

    In short we're killing our own citizens and possibly more each year.

    Thing is the numbers this far don't support that theory. They have not increased but appear to be holding from the last year.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jul 18, at 09:15.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The guys coming across the border are in the minority. What the opposition is pointing out is more local boys are being killed. The reasons by the state are clear to me and i don't argue against them. There are costs if you want to take up arms so this will serve to discourage others from joining. This is the objective. But in the short term the opposite is happening meaning the actions of the state are leading to more being recruited. So getting worse means casualty numbers rise for the perps and becomes self reinforcing.

    In short we're killing our own citizens and possibly more each year.

    Thing is the numbers this far don't support that theory. They have not increased but appear to be holding from the last year.
    There are no easy answers when it comes to national security. Those locals of J&K can study and have a damn good career in India, or pelt stones/join ranks with Pak based terrorist organisations and become a name in the list of casualties. Might is right and India have it in strides, the terrorists don't have any, nor does its' sponsor Pakistan. There is nothing wrong with what India is doing in Kashmir. In the face of wanton provocation by the PA/ISI, it is India which has shown tremendous maturity and acted with restraint. Pakistan has been very very lucky. Luck doesn't outlast karma.
    Last edited by Oracle; 24 Jul 18, at 03:31.
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