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Thread: For Pakistan, terrorism is a state-sponsored business

  1. #151
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Apart from ULFA, NSCM, MNF etcetera, which were supported by China/Pak/Bangladesh (Khaleda Zia's time & before Bangladesh became independent), there are Jamaat-e-Islami & HuJI which are even now supported by the PA/ISI and sunni extremist elements within Bangladesh.
    I've heard of these two Bangla based groups in the context of terrorism not separatism. The latter responsible for some cafe shooting in Dhaka some time back. Also bombings in India from years ago.

    An interesting opinion by a Bengali Muslim, some 2 decades earlier, said to one of my maternal uncle was - Jinnah Saab made a mistake, else this whole NE would have been ours, no worries, in another 15-20 years. And since then, my uncle has gone extreme right-wing, and at times he talks crazy stuff. He is still my good uncle, but I have limited my interactions with him because of his line of thinking.
    Is this just wishful thinking. There were certain criteria for demarcating the borders of East Pakistan. The NE didn't fit into it.

    The Hindus here, have listened to this type of provocations since the 1970s, from many bengali muslims and so remain extremely doubtful and afraid. The idea is similar to what the Pakistan Army preaches and practices - make a whole lot of babies, then take political control, then drive away whatever remaining Hindus are there, then comes azaadi. Or in other words, the demographic time-bomb. My native hill-station where I was born had 5-6 Muslim families, all with surname 'Khan'. Very old families, genuine Indians. No Muslim women then used to wear burka, now with migration that population has zoomed to thousands and whenever one goes out of his home, he can see all those men and women. The thing is barring some plain areas in Assam, all other areas are hilly where tribals rule, and when shit hits the fan, those Muslims would be ethnically cleansed. Most Muslims migrate due to economic reasons, but a few rotten apples amongst them always make sure all muslims get the blame. Same thing is happening here.
    Yes, since the '70s and here we are fifty years later and its still going to take another 15-20 years : D

    This story gets reversed in other parts of the country and the same fear of the minority is there. Where they seek to be in numbers for the simple reason of security. It's harder in smaller towns and villages.

    The way the state deals with this is if less than hundred people are injured or killed its referred to as disturbance and even normal. Riots means more than hundred effected.


    Divorce rates in tribal societies is high, so one way of assimilation is to marry a divorced tribal woman (Christian), have babies, own properties. This way the illegal immigrant becomes protected by law. He can claim a visa since he is married to an Indian women. Then there are many cases of Muslims changing their names that sound like Hindu names, then eloping, converting & marrying a Hindu girl, or making a Hindu girl pregnant. Since the time I have been here, I have seen 2 cases of such things (that came in local news), in one case, a Hindu girl, aged probably 16-17 studying in Guwahati came back and jumped into the lake. She committed suicide. She was pregnant. This kind of shit make people very very angry. Even I was pissed off when I heard about this little kid getting pregnant and her Muslim boyfriend ditching her. Maybe it's was just an incident, but when the next such incident happens people will lynch the Muslim guy because of this earlier incident. Hormones can be bad. This is not Europe, this is the NE India.
    This has been going on for a while i expect. What'd different these days is there seems to be a more coordinated community response to it.

    These happenings don't go unnoticed. Pent-up anger burst sometimes, as you probably remember the Nagaland lynching. I am not trying to instill a fear psychosis, it is what it is. It also doesn't matter to me. I own apartments in Bangalore, and the first hint of a major riot, I will fly out with my parents. Let people fight it out.
    What sticks in my mind is the Dimapur incident where this muslim guy gets dragged into the town centre and is lynched.

    Anyway, I have written a lot which doesn't pertain to the thread topic, but the issue here is same - break India. Can't fight and win, use other methods, like what the PA is doing in GB or in the NE of India. You have to be here, to fully understand the importance of what I am trying to say.
    These so called methods are the stock of hardliners. One claims it the other uses it as a pretext to persecute innocents.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Sep 18, at 18:54.

  2. #152
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I've heard of these two Bangla based groups in the context of terrorism not separatism. The latter responsible for some cafe shooting in Dhaka some time back. Also bombings in India from years ago.
    What is your opinion on the difference between terrorism and separatism? Mind you, I am not looking for textbook or thinktank elucidated answers.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  3. #153
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    What is your opinion on the difference between terrorism and separatism? Mind you, I am not looking for textbook or thinktank elucidated answers.
    If you think of separatists as insurgents then. Terrorists don't have much support of the people. Insurgents do and act as parallel govts. Number of NE outfits, Taliban & naxals for example.

    Insurgents will generally attack agents of the state than people but this isn't a hard and fast rule. Just a general trend.

    Course you could have terrorists espousing separatist causes but that's just an aspiration. Insurgents tends to be much more potent.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Sep 18, at 21:26.

  4. #154
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    If you think of separatists as insurgents then. Terrorists don't have much support of the people. Insurgents do and act as parallel govts. Number of NE outfits, Taliban & naxals for example.

    Insurgents will generally attack agents of the state than people but this isn't a hard and fast rule. Just a general trend.

    Course you could have terrorists espousing separatist causes but that's just an aspiration. Insurgents tends to be much more potent.
    Yasin Malik was a terrorist, one among the 4 core members who founded the JKLF. Got shot, imprisoned, and now he is a separatist. ULFA, NSCM(K & IM), MNF etc - they were groups supported by external states, and their motive was to fight for an independent country. They have killed 10s of 100s of innocent people. How are they separatists and not terrorists? Any group who picks up the gun against the state for carving out an independent country is a terrorist group.

    Taliban was formed with the amalgamation of former warlords. They have killed in 100s of 1000s. They are an insurgent group?

    You say insurgents act as parallel governments. How do you see the situation in Kashmir now. Those terrorists that the PA push in Kashmir do the same, don't they? Resign from government jobs or we will kill you, when we find you. If not, we will kill your family members.

    Are the Naxals recognised by foreign governments as truly representative of a section of people? No. Why are they always changing their locations running around in the jungles? Naxals don't run parallel government, they coerce people with fear, punishment and death.

    Let's be clear here. Having a different definition for a militant, insurgent, separatist or a terrorist is nothing but blurred vision. Their end goal is the same. Some may want autonomy, but they kill many in the process.

    Anybody can choose to pick up the gun; the state reserves the right to end their life.
    Last edited by Oracle; 20 Sep 18, at 22:22.
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  5. #155
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Any group who picks up the gun against the state for carving out an independent country is a terrorist group.
    No, those are separatists. Not all terrorists want an independent country. Take Al-Q

    I think i should combine separatist with terrorist and leave insurgent as another category. Will that be more clear.

    Taliban was formed with the amalgamation of former warlords. They have killed in 100s of 1000s. They are an insurgent group?
    Yes, because they run parallel govt in areas they control. Must control some territory to be a parallel govt. They were the former govt until they were deposed

    I see terrorism as more of a tactic. Insurgents do employ terrorist tactics from time to time.

    You say insurgents act as parallel governments. How do you see the situation in Kashmir now. Those terrorists that the PA push in Kashmir do the same, don't they? Resign from government jobs or we will kill you, when we find you. If not, we will kill your family members.
    How much territory do they control ? where are the sharia courts

    I see the kashmiri outfits more as terrorists for this reason. They might aspire to more but aren't able to achieve those goals and that is since things kicked off in the late 80s

    Are the Naxals recognised by foreign governments as truly representative of a section of people? No. Why are they always changing their locations running around in the jungles? Naxals don't run parallel government, they coerce people with fear, punishment and death.
    They've had the support of people over the years. Its waxed and waned. Why call it the red corridor otherwise. Their objective was to march on Delhi, one day and depose our present system of govt.

    Let's be clear here. Having a different definition for a militant, insurgent, separatist or a terrorist is nothing but blurred vision. Their end goal is the same. Some may want autonomy, but they kill many in the process.

    Anybody can choose to pick up the gun; the state reserves the right to end their life.
    Everything is blurred here, certainly lines. But having an idea of which category they belong to matters as it dictates how you respond. It can appear very similar at times i agree but there is a difference, maybe its more sharper in some cases than others.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Sep 18, at 22:59.

  6. #156
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  7. #157
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Terrorists abduct, kill three policemen in Kashmir

    Deserves a ruthless crackdown in Kashmir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    No, those are separatists. Not all terrorists want an independent country. Take Al-Q

    I think i should combine separatist with terrorist and leave insurgent as another category. Will that be more clear.


    Yes, because they run parallel govt in areas they control. Must control some territory to be a parallel govt. They were the former govt until they were deposed

    I see terrorism as more of a tactic. Insurgents do employ terrorist tactics from time to time.


    How much territory do they control ? where are the sharia courts

    I see the kashmiri outfits more as terrorists for this reason. They might aspire to more but aren't able to achieve those goals and that is since things kicked off in the late 80s


    They've had the support of people over the years. Its waxed and waned. Why call it the red corridor otherwise. Their objective was to march on Delhi, one day and depose our present system of govt.



    Everything is blurred here, certainly lines. But having an idea of which category they belong to matters as it dictates how you respond. It can appear very similar at times i agree but there is a difference, maybe its more sharper in some cases than others.
    Anybody, any group which picks up weapons to fight the state, and kills innocents deserves to die. Having said that, our line of thinking doesn't match. So I don't think dwelling on the same and replying would amount to anything. Chances are, our arguments becoming cyclic. So I would leave it at that, respectfully ofcourse.
    Last edited by Oracle; 21 Sep 18, at 06:59.
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  8. #158
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Anybody, any group which picks up weapons to fight the state, and kills innocents deserves to die.
    Surrender is better but nobody is disputing the state cannot respond. If they don't then they aren't enforcing their writ.

    Having said that, our line of thinking doesn't match. So I don't think dwelling on the same and replying would amount to anything. Chances are, our arguments becoming cyclic. So I would leave it at that, respectfully ofcourse.
    Terms gets used interchangeably in India.

  9. #159
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Surrender is better but nobody is disputing the state cannot respond. If they don't then they aren't enforcing their writ.
    There have been numerous attempts made by the Central Government, as well as the Indian Army, and in many cases the parents of those misguided youth. Things have not changed, and will not, unless the PA is defanged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Terms gets used interchangeably in India.
    Which is why I don't care much how media names them. BBC comes to mind, infamous for their skullduggery. Though there are other print and electronic media houses too.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  10. #160
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  11. #161
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Mixed thoughts about this. Was watching a program about this 'just meeting and not talks' and was surprised to find how agitated the anchor was introducing the program. Clearly he saw no point in meeting in the first place.

    She could have met her counterpart and read him the riot act. Re-iterated our red lines and consequences of future such actions. That's all that has to be said.

    Soldiers, real pros do not mutilate bodies, there is always a respect for the dead which seems entirely lacking with the PA. This goes all the way back to what they did in East Pakistan.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Sep 18, at 15:43.

  12. #162
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Mixed thoughts about this. Was watching a program about this 'just meeting and not talks' and was surprised to find how agitated the anchor was introducing the program. Clearly he saw no point in meeting in the first place.
    Nobody does. The idea that probably reverberates through South Block is to accept the invitation (knowing nothing would come out of it), and if an incident happens, call it off. India gets the moral high ground, and Paks as usual gets the blame . Suits us, coz' I don't see Paks closing the tap that churns out Jihadis. They have the population for that (Islamic Jihadis), yes, and nothing of an economy to speak of, surviving on aid. It's like cancer, ordinary Paks know they have it, but they can't get rid of it, coz' then they have to get rid of their Army, and no one dares cross their path with the PA knowing well the reputation of the genocidal army that have metamorphosed into a monster now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    She could have met her counterpart and read him the riot act. Re-iterated our red lines and consequences of future such actions. That's all that has to be said.
    Why? How many more times do India ask them not to cross the red line? Instead of begging for peace, India should drop hints of a major war and prepare for such. Break Pak into 4 parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Soldiers, real pros do not mutilate bodies, there is always a respect for the dead which seems entirely lacking with the PA. This goes all the way back to what they did in East Pakistan.
    It starts all the way in PMA, Kakul, Abbottabad. Shit, this is where Usama was killed, ain't it? Paks nascent history is littered with failures, international terrorists and aid. Some achievement.
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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Postage stamps portraying Burhan Wani issued

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    ISLAMABAD - Pakistan Post has issued special postage stamps to portray martyred Kashmiri youth leader, Burhan Wani , describing him a ‘Freedom Icon’.

    Pakistan Post had issued 20 special postage stamps on July 24, this year, to locally and internationally highlight the brutalities of Indian troops on the people of Occupied Kashmir engaged in a peaceful struggle to achieve freedom from India’s illegal occupation of their homeland, KMS reported.

    The stamps carry photos of Burhan Wani and his two associates killed in a fake encounter by Indian troops in Islamabad district of South Kashmir in July 2016.

    The commemorative stamps also portray the victims of pellet guns and destruction caused by the chemical weapons used by the Indian forces personnel in the occupied territory.

    It is to mention here that the extrajudicial killing of Burhan Wani on July 8, 2016 triggered the ongoing mass uprising in the Occupied Kashmir.
    About time, Pakistan is added to the list of countries exporting terrorism.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  14. #164
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    PM Imran reacts angrily to ‘arrogant’ Indian response to his dialogue offer

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    No, Mr. Taliban Khan, it is only in Pakistan that terrorists and its sympathisers can hold high office, and hold the country and its subjects to ransom.

    New Delhi squandered opportunity for peace once again: FO

    Peace? You guys keep sending Islamic Jihadis who kill our security forces and civilians. And then you guys want India to talk peace? One day, when the US no longer see your country as of any benefit, that day.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  15. #165
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    It is time to give a befitting reply to Pakistan, terrorists: Army chief

    Snippet -
    We need to take stern action to avenge the barbarism that terrorists and the Pakistan Army have been carrying out. Yes, it's time to give it back to them in the same coin ...... not resorting to similar kind of barbarism. But I think the other side must also feel the same pain
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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