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Thread: Putin Moves to Capitalize on Europe’s Fury With Trump

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I would not negotiate with a trespasser or someone whole stole my computer files. They are in the wrong; not I. They may excuse themselves and give guarantees that such conduct will stop if they wish but there is no sign of that. It is not upto us as democracies/alliances to offer negotiations to a criminal regime that has invaded us and interfered in our democratic processes. It is for them to apologise and "gerroff mah lawn!" as a friend of mine would say.
    I get what you're saying, but in international affairs, the people who are "trespassing" or might "trespass" are exactly the people you need to talk to. If you can come to a working political framework you can avoid violence in the first place, or end violence already occurring.

    That's not to say you should just roll over and surrender but the best way out of sticky situations is often to talk. That's why they hand out Nobel Peace Prizes, after all.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  2. #17
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    They've received one. 300 Russian mercs, an entire battalion, died under American bombs. Their Syrian allies lost a chemical staging point.

    At the end of the day, Russia is still an 800lb bear that has to be dealt with. Trigger points, both theirs and ours, has to be defined, communicated, respected, enforced, and executed. If we are to start WWIII, then I want all the i's dotted and all the t's crossed and not over a misunderstanding.
    not enough. not near enough.

    Russia attacked the electoral systems of several democracies. that's an attack on the very root of our governments, strategic in nature.

    yeah, turning 300 Russian mercs into bloody paste was a pretty darn good day, but that was done as a reaction to those same mercs testing out US resolve in Syria...and not as a reaction to the earlier aforementioned attack.

    the US response to Russia should have been something akin to the maximum pressure campaign put on NK. threaten to bankrupt the elites supporting the Putin regime. warn Putin in no uncertain terms that if this ever occurs again, we would openly consider Russia to be a hostile power with all that entails. this would certainly be tit for tat considering the scale of their malfeasance.

    i agree ultimately we'll need a communication mechanism with the Russians. but for the moment the basis of the communication should be that Russia has crossed a red line with the US, and if there is to be further communication this red line must not be crossed again.
    Last edited by astralis; 08 Jun 18, at 19:45.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #18
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    My country has been at war with Muscovy for four years, we have 162 political prisoners held in captivity in Muscovy and have had a region annexed and it's native Tatar people oppressed, their TV stations closed and language banned, leaders imprisoned or exiled, 11,000 and counting dead and over 45,000 injured thanks to a hypocritical, lying cleptocratic chekist mafia in Moscow and you think I should try to reason with them and negotiate?

    On what basis do have any proof of their good faith if they signed some piece of paper? Budapest Memorandum? Helsinki Accords? UN Founding Charter? Minsk1 and 2 all broken... but we should negotiate with the armed trespasser? No I do not negotiate with people who trespass on my land and kill my friends until they leave and put down their weapons. Until then for Ukraine all talks are a waste of time - though I believe new 'Normandy format' are going to be held in Berlin next week to waste more time.
    Last edited by snapper; 08 Jun 18, at 19:51.

  4. #19
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Where exactly is the red line that Russia is not supposed to cross? Like if Russia hacked Trump's email address and leaked information NOW is that bad, or it is only bad during an election year? How about if the release information, doctored or not, intended to influence the Mueller investigation, how do we handle that? Is it bad they operate RT? The Senators and Twitter seem pretty pissed that Russia apparently operate fake Facebook accounts, so is THAT now the red-line? is Russia loaning money to the National Front the red-line?

    What about US actions in Russia, or do red-lines only apply to Russia?

    None of these questions seem clear to me, and in any case there was no clear escalation, so it doesn't make sense to make Russia into an international pariah state like NKorea (which we've been dealing with, with the exact same issue, for decades).

    Crimea is a much clearer case, because you can't just annex another nation's territory. That's been precedent forever.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 08 Jun 18, at 20:11.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    the US response to Russia should have been something akin to the maximum pressure campaign put on NK. threaten to bankrupt the elites supporting the Putin regime. warn Putin in no uncertain terms that if this ever occurs again, we would openly consider Russia to be a hostile power with all that entails. this would certainly be tit for tat considering the scale of their malfeasance.

    i agree ultimately we'll need a communication mechanism with the Russians. but for the moment the basis of the communication should be that Russia has crossed a red line with the US, and if there is to be further communication this red line must not be crossed again.
    We've got two machine guns nests staring at each other. Who does what shopping where, when, and how ain't got nothing to do with how we talk about not shooting each other.

  6. #21
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    Russia attacked the electoral systems of several democracies. that's an attack on the very root of our governments, strategic in nature.
    How well did that work out across Europe last year ?

    Austria, France, Germany, Netherlands. Netherlands was a real joke they backed a right winger that was gay.

    None of their proteges won

    It's an open question whether their meddling amounted to anything meaningful in your election

    Now i don't expect them to stop, they will keep trying in the future. They have this covert hybrid warfare policy

    But the thing with this kind of attack is its good only the first time before everybody gets smart to it.

    In other words they only get one shot
    Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Jun 18, at 20:36.

  7. #22
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    We've got two machine guns nests staring at each other. Who does what shopping where, when, and how ain't got nothing to do with how we talk about not shooting each other.
    we already have basic communication mechanisms with Russia. we're de-conflicted in Syria, for instance, those 300 mercs notwithstanding.

    don't need more, not now and not at the G7 forum. if Russia is going to act like a pariah state then they can be treated like a pariah state.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    don't need more, not now and not at the G7 forum. if Russia is going to act like a pariah state then they can be treated like a pariah state.
    G7 means squat all without China and China is not going to treat Russia as a pariah state.

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    so would a G8 with Russia be any better vis-a-vis China? there's no advantage to it.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    so would a G8 with Russia be any better vis-a-vis China? there's no advantage to it.
    My point being is that like it or not, you cannot isolate Russia as you do NKorea. They have far too many channels not under Western control to access. Hell, they even are doing business with the UKR.

    Edit: My apologies. When I said trigger points, I mean as in weapons hot, not social justice warrior tantrums.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 08 Jun 18, at 23:40.

  11. #26
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    My point being is that like it or not, you cannot isolate Russia as you do NKorea. They have far too many channels not under Western control to access. Hell, they even are doing business with the UKR.
    i agree, Russia will never be NK just for the fact of the oil alone.

    but that doesn't mean we can't hurt Russia, and hurt Russia badly, via economic sanctions. if Putin screws with western elections, then the least we can do is attack the basis of his popularity-- a growing economy. either Putin plays nicer with us or he can have fun being in the Chinese economic sphere.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    but that doesn't mean we can't hurt Russia, and hurt Russia badly, via economic sanctions. if Putin screws with western elections, then the least we can do is attack the basis of his popularity-- a growing economy. either Putin plays nicer with us or he can have fun being in the Chinese economic sphere.
    I have news for you. It wasn't Trump who lead the charge to buy more Russian hydrocarbons.

    But what do you mean screwing with Western elections? All Putin did was released non-classified data from a non-government server. We did far worst with coups and banana republics.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 09 Jun 18, at 03:09.

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    But what do you mean screwing with Western elections? All Putin did was released non-classified data from a non-government server. We did far worst with coups and banana republics.
    not just the US, but across Europe. social media, intrusions into voting systems, hacking into political party e-mails, etc.

    we certainly didn't do anything similar to Putin, as much as he thinks the color revolutions were all caused by the CIA. this type of attack demands an equivalent response.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    not just the US, but across Europe. social media, intrusions into voting systems, hacking into political party e-mails, etc.
    I'm not seeing it. So, they made fake profiles and plug fake social media newstories and stole non-government non-encrypted emails. How is that intruding on an election when the responsibility to vote belonged to the voter. There was no buying of votes, denial of vote, nor putting a gun to voter's head. There is certainly influence, fake or otherwise, but again the responsibility to vote belonged to the voter and by extension, it is the voter's responsibility to make an informed choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    we certainly didn't do anything similar to Putin, as much as he thinks the color revolutions were all caused by the CIA. this type of attack demands an equivalent response.
    So we pump money into the opposition and steal their data (and we do steal their data). We're just not stupid enough to publically release it.

    I'm not seeing what you're seeing that would require an upfront economic sanction response instead of beating the Russians at their own game.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 09 Jun 18, at 05:38.

  15. #30
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    At the end of the day all Moscow did was convince some Americans to vote for one candidate. They mostly failed in Europe (pending Aron Banks investigation).

    Surely the west is capable of doing the same to Russia? Troll farms, fake news and fake accounts are hardly beyond the ability of the west.

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