One thing we do know. There are no pictures of mass Chinese populations with swollen bellies dying of starvation.
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Mao's motivations
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Technically there are. Probably about as many as of the Holodomor, or any of the various famines in India aided by the British colonial administration.
There's barely any famines that were ever as exhaustively photo-documented and exploited in public media as the one people always think of when they hear the word "famine".
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Whatever be the motivations, Mao was a genocidal maniac. Much like Stalin, Winston Churchill etcetera. Discussing about people like these waste precious bandwidth.
CPC right now is the biggest genocidal monster (Tibetans, Uighurs), alongwith the NK regime, Pakistani terrorist regime, the Venezuelans and the Iranian regime. Wonder why the CPC has the best of relations with regimes that can be called terrorist regimes. Why?
Oh, and I've been restricted from posting or liking posts on Quora for 3 times now. The Chinese and the Pakistanis get a free pass on Quora with their propaganda posts. Counter those and get banned. Fcuk Quora.
Originally posted by kato View PostTechnically there are. Probably about as many as of the Holodomor, or any of the various famines in India aided by the British colonial administration.
There's barely any famines that were ever as exhaustively photo-documented and exploited in public media as the one people always think of when they hear the word "famine".Last edited by Oracle; 09 Jun 19,, 18:31.Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
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Originally posted by Oracle View PostThe Nazis were pure evil, everybody describes them as such, which is correct. Why doesn't anybody say the same about Winston Churchill and the British Colonialists? Had it not been for Roosevelt, we'd still be colonial subjects now. Two sides of the same coin from the victors, one against Colonialism, one for.
Same thing here.
You have, reportedly, up to 600,000 Uighurs being locked up for pre-crimes in relation to Muslim extremism. It then gets spun into, millions of moderate Muslim Uighurs getting exterminated in concentration camps. Sure, the lesser of two evil is still evil, but that spin, repeated on other events, fosters anti-Chinese sentiment, as seen in Youtube's comment sections.
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Originally posted by hboGYT View PostSo how did WAB reach the conclusion of a few million before?
What we do know that people who died directly at the hands of the CCP (bullet in the head, jail time deaths) only numbered in the few millions at most.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostWhatever be the motivations, Mao was a genocidal maniac. Much like Stalin, Winston Churchill etcetera. Discussing about people like these waste precious bandwidth.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostCPC right now is the biggest genocidal monster (Tibetans, Uighurs), alongwith the NK regime, Pakistani terrorist regime, the Venezuelans and the Iranian regime. Wonder why the CPC has the best of relations with regimes that can be called terrorist regimes. Why?
Originally posted by Oracle View PostThe Nazis were pure evil, everybody describes them as such, which is correct. Why doesn't anybody say the same about Winston Churchill and the British Colonialists? Had it not been for Roosevelt, we'd still be colonial subjects now. Two sides of the same coin from the victors, one against Colonialism, one for.
I'm assuming that you're talking about the Bengal Famine when referencing Churchill. There is no doubt the Brits were heavily responsible but it was a 1-2-3 punch that caused the famine. British incompetence at shipping food to the region, crop failure, and losing access to Burma rice when they lost Burma to the Japanese. You cannot blame crop failure and Burma on the Brits but you can blame them for not priotizing famine relief over the war effort.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 10 Jun 19,, 15:43.Chimo
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By the same token, it was the CCP who lifted 1 billion+ people from the Stone Age to the Space Age. That kind of progess could not be done without anything but an iron hand.
IE, without access to global capital markets-- access that came because Deng decided to make common cause with the Americans-- China's rate of growth would have been significantly slower, probably somewhere in the 5-8% growth range vs 10-12%.
the iron hand was great for initial state centralization, which is absolutely necessary for a national market...but afterwards it's more of a dead weight.There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov
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Tianamen Square. The resulting sanctions collapsed the Chinese economy. Without Deng forcing slave labour wages onto the Chinese population, he could have never enticed the 1st the Japanese, then the Europeans with bargin basement prices. Officially, those sanctions were never lifted, they were just left to expire.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostTianamen Square. The resulting sanctions collapsed the Chinese economy. Without Deng forcing slave labour wages onto the Chinese population, he could have never enticed the 1st the Japanese, then the Europeans with bargin basement prices. Officially, those sanctions were never lifted, they were just left to expire.
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The notion that international sanctions after Tiananmen crashed the Chinese economy is pure myth.
Percent Change
_ _ _ _ _Exports _ _ _ _ to USA _ _ _ % share
1987 _ _ +25.8% _ _ _ _+15.1% _ _ _ 7.7%
1988 _ _+20.8% _ _ _ _+12.2% _ _ _ _ 7.7%
1989 _ _+11.0% _ _ _ _+29.9% _ _ _ _8.3%
1990 _ _+18.6% _ _ _ _ +20.4% _ _ _ _8.5%
1991 _ _+14.7% _ _ _ _ +16.6% _ _ _ _8.6%
Very straight forward, on the available evidence.
The actual cause was the use of very poor monetary and fiscal tools to beat down rampant inflation (27.9% YoY in December 1988). Foreign trade was not compromised, and exports the USA not only increased, but rose as a share of total imports … during a US recession.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ Inflation
Q-1 1988 _ _ 10.3%
Q-2 1988 _ _ 14.2%
Q-3 1988 _ _ 23.1%
Q-4 1988 _ _ 27.3%
Q-1 1989 _ _ 27.6%
Q-2 1989 _ _ 24.8%
Q-3 1989 _ _ 15.4%
Q-4 1989 _ _ 7.5%
Q-1 1990 _ _ 4.0%
Q-2 1990 _ _ 2.3%
Q-3 1990 _ _ 2.2%
Q-4 1990 _ _ 3.7
Q-1 1991 _ _ 1.9%Trust me?
I'm an economist!
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostWAB did not reach that conclusion. What we did say that 10s of millions of deaths relied on "creative" statistics. Basically anyone not borned or died during this period was counted as famine death. You died by jumping off a bridge during a famine period. It's a famine death. Deciding not to have children. Famine death.
What we do know that people who died directly at the hands of the CCP (bullet in the head, jail time deaths) only numbered in the few millions at most.
You cannot confront evil if you're unwilling to look it straight in the face. Mao was an egotistic god wannabe. Stalin and Churchill were cold hearted but efficent bastards, I could run circles around Mao but I better start outthinking Stalin and Churchill.
By the same token, it was the CCP who lifted 1 billion+ people from the Stone Age to the Space Age. That kind of progess could not be done without anything but an iron hand.
I hihgly doubt that. Without the BIA, the Brits had no hope of holding onto India and they bargined Indian Independence with the BIA in exchange for their co-operation during WWII.
I'm assuming that you're talking about the Bengal Famine when referencing Churchill. There is no doubt the Brits were heavily responsible but it was a 1-2-3 punch that caused the famine. British incompetence at shipping food to the region, crop failure, and losing access to Burma rice when they lost Burma to the Japanese. You cannot blame crop failure and Burma on the Brits but you can blame them for not priotizing famine relief over the war effort.
My views are plain and simple. If person X is the PM/President/Leader of a country/province, then the well-being of that country is on his shoulders. You have to remember that Churchill gave racists statements during the Bengal famine. I hold Churchill responsible for millions of unnecessary deaths. As far as the British Colonialists go, they destroyed textile industry of India, Jallianwala Bagh massacre and so many other things. We're still breeding like rabbits today, but millions aren't dying from want of food. Britain ate our bread, while Indians starved. Before 1800s, India consisted of artisans, traders, warriors and merchants having a share of 27% in manufacturing exports of the world, which the British reduced to 2%. Communalism existed, but the British fired it up by dividing Indians over religious lines, drawing a line between sunnis and shias.
Warm water port (Pakistan), Fulda gap - the Soviets never came. All crooks and money launderers from India find safe haven in UK. Pakistan gets special mention here, even though UK supported Indian position in the UN vis-a-vis Masood Azhar, the Brits seem to handhold their poodle so that those jihadis don't destruct themselves. WTF is their problem. They are 1000s of mile away. We suffer, they don't. The list of the many things the UK did wrong, and still is doing wrong, is long.
Credit to the colonialists is the infrastructure they built, it still holds well to this day in some parts of India like mine, but those were built from Indian taxpayers money, Indian blood and sweat and over Indian dead bodies. Britain united the princely states that formed the 'Union of India' - well 'Hind' or 'Hindustan' (ancient terms that described India) were ruled by the Guptas, Mauryans and many others who owned parts of India that today would consist of 60% of the entire land mass of India. So that debate is absurd. Britain's legacy in India is exploitative, racist and savagery. Every place the British Colonialists set their foot on is on fire today. Look at the middle-east. Af-Pak border. They drew borders with a pen on a paper without giving a damn about ethnicity or religion. As I think it over and over, I think the Brits never really wanted peace in their former colonies. They wanted those to burn.
The good thing was that even during those terrible times, there were Brits who didn't support their Government and wanted them to exit India. Good people have always existed along with the bad ones, but they were/are always outnumbered.
Since we're talking about it, why is Churchill being hold in high regard by the British people? He didn't win the war. US and the Soviets won it for them.Last edited by Oracle; 14 Jun 19,, 04:15.Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
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Originally posted by Oracle View PostAgree. Your numbers are slightly off, it's 750 million, and even then this is a miracle which I don't think any other country can emulate. Never doubted Chinese propensity to earn money. How they do it, is being questioned now.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostYou said it yourself. So, where is the doubt? I mean what did I say to that effect. Britain transported food from Australia to the Mediterranean during WWII, when there was surplus food there. Those ships could have very well fed those dying Indians. The thing is, they didn't care for dying Indians. Indians were of a lower breed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
It seems a whole sleuth of factors were involved within India itself, including social engineering (which never works out right in all of history). It only got better when the BIA took control.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostI hold Churchill responsible for millions of unnecessary deaths.
His cold heartiness was not restricted to Indians. The RAF could have stopped a lot of bombing of British cities since the Brits had cracked the German codes. The RAF could have whole squadrons waiting for German bombers before they could cross the Channel. However, doing so would only alert the Germans that their codes had been cracked and would change them, losing this vital Allied advantage.
I don't think he lost any sleep over this if for nothing else that he was an alcholic and drank himself to sleep everynight.
Detest him if you wish but never under-estimate his cold-hearted brutality.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostSince we're talking about it, why is Churchill being hold in high regard by the British people? He didn't win the war. US and the Soviets won it for them.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 14 Jun 19,, 05:54.Chimo
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Originally posted by DOR View PostThe notion that international sanctions after Tiananmen crashed the Chinese economy is pure myth.
We see today how well that worked out ; )Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Jun 19,, 05:55.
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Originally posted by Oracle View PostSince we're talking about it, why is Churchill being hold in high regard by the British people? He didn't win the war. US and the Soviets won it for them.Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Jun 19,, 06:01.
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