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Thread: Trump's Economy

  1. #106
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    well, if a recession does happen, i sure will look forward to all the temporary Republican converts to Keynesianism...:-)
    Well, you see, that's not artificially low rates, that's just good ol' capitalism!
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  2. #107
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    The stable genius seems to love shooting Americans in the foot...and the wallet.

    How Iran could threaten Trump’s reelection

    I wonder how many of Trump's Kool-aid drinkers will support him with a gallon of gas goes well north of $3.50? I wonder if Iran could possibly be aware of that little detail?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
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  3. #108
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    That would require starting a regional war that Iran is clearly going to lose. Even if you think the US record in Iraq is shit, Saddam Hussein is dead and his entire regime is ashes.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  4. #109
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    That would require starting a regional war that Iran is clearly going to lose. Even if you think the US record in Iraq is shit, Saddam Hussein is dead and his entire regime is ashes.
    How’s that whole “Iraq will pay for itself” thing coming along? Is the trillion (plus) dollar check in the mail yet?

    I am so tired of GOPers launching unnecessary wars of aggression.
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    I am so tired of GOPers launching unnecessary wars of aggression.
    Defending 50% of an ally's vital world oil output is an unnecessary war of aggression? On what planet?

    I also remind you that Ops DELIBERATE FORCE (Bosnia), GOTHIC SERPENT (Somalia), and ALLIED FORCE (Kosovo) were all Bill Clinton's doing. At the very least, we had strategic reasoning, as much as you want to disagree with them, going into Iraq. There were no strategic reasons to intervene between butchers trying to butcher each other.

    Then under Obama, we've got Lybia and ISIS. Of all the POTUS since WWII, ONLY ONE did not initiate military actions, Gerald Ford, a GOPer. I think it's long past you get off that GOP warmonger soapbox. The facts are against you.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 24 Sep 19, at 01:14.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Defending 50% of an ally's vital world oil output is an unnecessary war of aggression? On what planet?

    I also remind you that Ops DELIBERATE FORCE (Bosnia), GOTHIC SERPENT (Somalia), and ALLIED FORCE (Kosovo) were all Bill Clinton's doing. At the very least, we had strategic reasoning, as much as you want to disagree with them, going into Iraq. There were no strategic reasons to intervene between butchers trying to butcher each other.

    Then under Obama, we've got Lybia and ISIS. Of all the POTUS since WWII, ONLY ONE did not initiate military actions, Gerald Ford, a GOPer. I think it's long past you get off that GOP warmonger soapbox. The facts are against you.
    Sorry, I could have sworn I mentioned “unnecessary wars of aggression,” and not anything about stopping genocide.
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  7. #112
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    What genocide?

    I challenge you. POINT ME OUT THE GENOCIDE!

    Unnecessary Wars of Agreesion! Operation DELIBERATE FORCE allowed the Croats to evict over 140,000 Serbs from their homes. GOTHIC SERPENT just allowed another warlord into Aidid's place who did the exact same thing. Op ALLIED FORCE evicted 164,000 Serbs from Kosovo. Go on! Point out to me who did what!

    You will find on this board testimonies of both UNPROFOR General Lewis MacKenzie and myself detailing that there were no good guys in there. We were against the Kosovo War, stating outright that the KLA was nothing more than a bunch of murdering thugs. The fact that Kosovo was turned into a drug smuggling whorehouse is testimony to that fact. UNLIKE YOU, however, we do support the war once it was declared. Soldiers know only one way to peace - victory. But it was MOST CERTAINLY AN UNNECESSARY VICTORY! We turned Kosovo into a whorehouse.

    The FACTS ARE STILL AGAINST YOU! YOU'RE DAMNED RIGHT IT'S YOUR MISTAKE!

    And Do I need to go on about Syria and ISIS? Or are you just too awe inspired by a Democrat POTUS NOT to see the sewage we got ourselves into?

    And for damned sure! Was Vietnam necessary?

    And finally ON WHAT PLANET is defending World Oil Output is AN UNNECESSARY WAR OF AGGRESSION? ESPECIALLY When Iran is the one STARTING this!

    If this was Obama, you would be praising this action!
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 24 Sep 19, at 07:23.

  8. #113
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    well, neither Syria nor Libya constituted the morass that Iraq was. same thing with Bosnia and Kosovo. yeah, sure, a lot of dead bodies -- but mostly not US/Allied/Coalition.

    to be fair to Trump, every time he has been pressed to hit the "invade" button, he has shied away. Korea, Venezuela, Iran. Bolton's out and he was Mr I want to Invade Everywhere.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  9. #114
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    What genocide?
    Does it not count if the ethnic clensing is by so-called Christians in the former Yugoslavia vs. mere Muslims?
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  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    What genocide?
    Does it not count if the ethnic clensing is by so-called Christians in the former Yugoslavia vs. mere Muslims?
    I have news for you. The Muslims were the victors ... with our help! The end result was the Muslims and the Roman Catholic Croats ethnic cleansing the Orthadox Christian Serbs ... and we help the Muslims and the Croats to do so. So again, who did what to whom? All we did was to helped one set of butchers against another set of butchers.

    And btw, ethnic cleansing is only a recent term came about in the 1990s. Before that, we described it as population displacement, not genocide.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 24 Sep 19, at 18:21.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    well, neither Syria nor Libya constituted the morass that Iraq was. same thing with Bosnia and Kosovo. yeah, sure, a lot of dead bodies -- but mostly not US/Allied/Coalition.
    Korea and Vietnam were far worst than Iraq. Wars started by Democrats.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 24 Sep 19, at 18:28.

  12. #117
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    Korea and Vietnam were far worst than Iraq. Wars started by Democrats.
    eh...I wouldn't go so far to say that those wars were "started" by Democrats...Kim Il Sung and Ho Chi Minh had something to do with it, too. given the Cold War context, either a Democratic or Republican President would need to respond-- if not out of fear from looking weak in front of the USSR, then looking weak to the US voter.

    Iraq, on the other hand, was much more of a war of choice. Bush didn't -have- to go into Iraq. same thing with libya/kosovo/bosnia-- but again, Iraq was much worse.

    in any case, we're talking about now. ironically there is much more of a foreign policy consensus than there used to be. Bolton was the old school holdover in favor of interventionism but he's gone now.

    both liberal internationalism "responsibility to protect" and neoconservatism "democracy promotion" are dead as foreign policies go.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    eh...I wouldn't go so far to say that those wars were "started" by Democrats...Kim Il Sung and Ho Chi Minh had something to do with it, too. given the Cold War context, either a Democratic or Republican President would need to respond-- if not out of fear from looking weak in front of the USSR, then looking weak to the US voter.
    Rhee had just as much to do with the Korean War as did Kim. If we didn't intervene, it would have been just a fight between two tin pot dictators. Vietnam was already lost before US intervention. It should have been left as another lost French colony.

    And no one even knew where Korea or Vietnam was until the US made it a fuss to her voters.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 24 Sep 19, at 20:02.

  14. #119
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    like i said, Cold War context -- all of this mattered domestically. this was middle of Second Red Scare, it was death for domestic politicians to look weak on communism. there was no difference between the Dems and GOP here; the GOP under Goldwater was talking about using nukes in Vietnam (and on China before that).

    Bush purposefully chose Iraq for the all-out regime change because he figured it was going to be easy -- easier than beating up on Kim -- and he could remake the Middle East, and look like Mr Strong War Leader. he didn't -need- to do it even for domestic purposes, he was at 70-80% support post 9-11. he was willing to burn off some of the support/political capital because he felt there was going to be a payoff both for the US and his party later.

    bottom-line: i agree with you, Dems (ie Clinton, Obama) certainly picked some "wars of aggression" in the recent past. the targets they pick tend to be small, the method they use tend to be via missiles and bombs.

    Bush did...rather more than that.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    like i said, Cold War context -- all of this mattered domestically. this was middle of Second Red Scare, it was death for domestic politicians to look weak on communism. there was no difference between the Dems and GOP here; the GOP under Goldwater was talking about using nukes in Vietnam (and on China before that).
    Which again, no one noticed until the POTUS acted. Korea would have never happened if the Soviet ambassador had not left ithe UNSC n protest. The JCS read Korea right. Stalin wanted to bleed us of men and machines using Korean and Chinese blood. I remind you that more men and machines went to Europe than to Korea. Left to the JCS, Korea would not have been fought.

    No one cared one iota about the 1962 Sino-Indo War. Who took notice about the umpteen wars in Africa? Vietnam was already lost after Diem Bien Phu. The US immediately propped up South Vietnam who was bound to lose an election to Ho Chi Minh to unify the country. Didn't help that HCM was betrayed by China in allowing South Vietnam to come into being.

    Again, the point being, no one would have noticed if the US had just backed off. The Vietminh had already won and it was the French who lost it, just like they lost Algiers. No one would have noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    Bush purposefully chose Iraq for the all-out regime change because he figured it was going to be easy -- easier than beating up on Kim
    Have news for you. It was easy. All OPOBJs were achieved and achieved fast. It's dealing with unintended consequences that was hard and always will be hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    -- and he could remake the Middle East, and look like Mr Strong War Leader. he didn't -need- to do it even for domestic purposes, he was at 70-80% support post 9-11. he was willing to burn off some of the support/political capital because he felt there was going to be a payoff both for the US and his party later.
    Would the US be better off with a Saddam with buried nuclear weapons research and a copy of the CICH-4 warhead? I remind you that this is the same Saddam who was stupid enough to try to assassinate Bush Sr while fighting both an insurgency and an air war that lasted 10 years. As bad as ISIS is, they are nowhere close to being as dangerous as a stupid Saddam with his finger on a NBC stockpile.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    bottom-line: i agree with you, Dems (ie Clinton, Obama) certainly picked some "wars of aggression" in the recent past. the targets they pick tend to be small, the method they use tend to be via missiles and bombs.
    Small? We did Afghanistan with a smaller force than SFOR and KFOR. Let's keep some perspective here. They're "smaller" but by no means, "small" and most certainly not their impact on the European scene as the Russians learned that they could not protect their own interests in an European region not controlled by NATO. Crimea is a direct result of Kosovo. You know, the thing about unintended consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    Bush did...rather more than that.
    Yes, he did but the point remains. Democrats POTUS ain't no angels and could be and have been just as stupid.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 24 Sep 19, at 23:32.

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