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Thread: 2018 Toronto Van Murders

  1. #346
    Senior Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    We were the barbarians the Arab merchants and missionaries warned everybody about, the savage pale ghosts and sunburnt demons of myth and legend, and one day, these monsters of myth and legend showed up in places such as India, the Orient, the Americas, and Africa. We looted everything we could get our hands on, and settled everywhere temperate that was suitable for us.

    The true Western countries (which doesn't include Serbia) remained constantly at war with another, and the purloined wealth from other continents, and the constant warfare, sped technological development in the West even faster.

    After World War II, the West, for the most part, took a few "Xanax" and decided not to war so much. This constant state of war ultimately led to Hitler (whose only good act was that he was the man who killed Hitler, got to give credit where credit is due), and nuclear weapons got invented, hence, the reason for taking a proverbial "Xanax".

    At our core, I believe Westerners are still savage and barbaric. Westerners typically have lots of money, nice places to live, but go to any European football match and see the hooligans, or to an American inner city, that's where the wars are being fought. In the West, the wars are also being fought in both the bedroom and the boardroom, in divorce courts and via lawsuit. We're still the Farangs, Goths, Lombards, Saxons, and Vikings of ages past, but now we're rich and have nice things.

    Because we got the most money and the nicest things, we decided to slap a label on that and call it "civilization".
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    I don't 100% agree with the view, but it did absolutely take my noggin for a spin. I too subscribe to the idea that Mutually Assured Destruction was our "Xanax".
    "Draft beer, not people."

  2. #347
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    To be honest, I see southeastern Europe, settled by Eurasian steppe peoples, as the rump/remnant of Eastern Orthodox "civilization" which once encompassed the entirety of North Africa and the Levant. The Eastern Orthodox "civilization" is of Greek, Persian, Aramaic, Berber, Assyrian, and Coptic (Egyptian) background.

    The Balkans, settled by Eurasian steppe peoples, were assimilated into the Eastern Orthodox "civilization" during the time of the Byzantine Empire, which itself was not "Western". The rest of that "civilization", North Africa and the Levant, were later gradually assimilated into the Arab/Islamic "civilization" starting in the 7th century.

    The modern-day rump of that Eastern Orthodox "civilization" happens to be located near the true "West", and mistakenly gets lumped in with the "West". In my opinion, it's just an accident of history that the rest of that "civilization" was conquered and assimilated into the Arab/Islamic "civilization".

    I believe the Balkans are more or less the "orphan" of the once much vaster Eastern Orthodox "civilization", and while they're not truly part of the "West", they have copied certain practices and ideas from it.

    I believe Catholicism and later on, Protestantism, were a tailor fit, bespoke adaptation/development from Orthodoxy, made suitable for consumption for the "barbarian" Franks, Goths, Lombards, Vikings, Saxons, Normans, Visigoths, Celts, and Alemmani of the true "West".

    These are my opinions, and mine alone. Take it or leave it.

    That being said, I believe all human beings are >99% alike, and it's the <1% difference, which is mostly stuff we made up and choose to believe in, or were born into, or cultural behaviors we decide to adopt as a result of environment and geography, is what we obsess and agonize over, and have conflicts and fight wars over.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 20 May 18, at 21:09.
    If I say its safe to surf this beach, Captain, then its safe to surf this beach! I mean, I'm not afraid to surf this place, I'll surf this whole f--- place! -LTC Kilgore

  3. #348
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post

    That being said, I believe all human beings are >99% alike, and it's the <1% difference, which is mostly stuff we made up and choose to believe in, or were born into, or cultural behaviors we decide to adopt as a result of environment and geography, is what we obsess and agonize over, and have conflicts and fight wars over.
    I can go along with that

  4. #349
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    To be honest, I see southeastern Europe, settled by Eurasian steppe peoples, as the rump/remnant of Eastern Orthodox "civilization" which once encompassed the entirety of North Africa and the Levant. The Eastern Orthodox "civilization" is of Greek, Persian, Aramaic, Berber, Assyrian, and Coptic (Egyptian) background.

    The Balkans, settled by Eurasian steppe peoples, were assimilated into the Eastern Orthodox "civilization" during the time of the Byzantine Empire, which itself was not "Western". The rest of that "civilization", North Africa and the Levant, were later gradually assimilated into the Arab/Islamic "civilization" starting in the 7th century.

    The modern-day rump of that Eastern Orthodox "civilization" happens to be located near the true "West", and mistakenly gets lumped in with the "West". In my opinion, it's just an accident of history that the rest of that "civilization" was conquered and assimilated into the Arab/Islamic "civilization".

    I believe the Balkans are more or less the "orphan" of the once much vaster Eastern Orthodox "civilization", and while they're not truly part of the "West", they have copied certain practices and ideas from it.

    I believe Catholicism and later on, Protestantism, were a tailor fit, bespoke adaptation/development from Orthodoxy, made suitable for consumption for the "barbarian" Franks, Goths, Lombards, Vikings, Saxons, Normans, Visigoths, Celts, and Alemmani of the true "West".

    These are my opinions, and mine alone. Take it or leave it.

    That being said, I believe all human beings are >99% alike, and it's the <1% difference, which is mostly stuff we made up and choose to believe in, or were born into, or cultural behaviors we decide to adopt as a result of environment and geography, is what we obsess and agonize over, and have conflicts and fight wars over.
    It wasn't an accident, West helped a lot in the preservation of Islamic civilization. Like today in Bosnia, with Erdogan holding a presidential rally. Are we talking Ottomans again? Of course, British influence will be nicely laid out at the morgue thread.

  5. #350
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    It wasn't an accident, West helped a lot in the preservation of Islamic civilization. Like today in Bosnia, with Erdogan holding a presidential rally. Are we talking Ottomans again? Of course, British influence will be nicely laid out at the morgue thread.
    Much like your conspirational take with regards to the incel/pareto you've been advocating, in my view, you're again crossing into conspiracy theory territory.

    What does the NATO intervention in the Yugoslav Wars have to do with the Ottomans and Islamic civilization?

    One only needs to look as far as the words of the first NATO Secretary-General for the overarching reason why NATO intervened:

    "Keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down. -Lord Ismay

    My take on the Yugoslav Wars:

    • Yugoslavia was firmly on the course toward breaking up with the death of Tito in 1980
    • Slovenia and Croatia were pro-Western
    • Serbia, due to historical ties and no allies elsewhere, was a pro-Russian state.
    • Bosnia was a battleground in-between
    • Serbia was seeking to expand its territory at the expense of Croatia and Bosnia
    • Serbia came into conflict with the two, with a three-way fight emerging in Bosnia
    • At the same time, NATO and the West saw an opportunity expand their geopolitical influence and recruit new allies (Croatia and Slovenia)
    • Turkey, alone among NATO powers, had its own special angle with regards to Bosnia and its (mostly nominal) Islamic population
    • Humanitarian tragedies and massacres in Bosnia captured the attention of Western politicians and public, thus eliciting sympathy
    • Overall, Serbia threw the dice, took a reckless gamble, sought territorial aggrandizement, and lost their stake, and some
    • Mostly Milosevic's fault. Though Tudjman and Izetbegović certainly weren't innocents either
    If I say its safe to surf this beach, Captain, then its safe to surf this beach! I mean, I'm not afraid to surf this place, I'll surf this whole f--- place! -LTC Kilgore

  6. #351
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Much like your conspirational take with regards to the incel/pareto you've been advocating, in my view, you're again crossing into conspiracy theory territory.

    What does the NATO intervention in the Yugoslav Wars have to do with the Ottomans and Islamic civilization?

    One only needs to look as far as the words of the first NATO Secretary-General for the overarching reason why NATO intervened:

    "Keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down. -Lord Ismay

    My take on the Yugoslav Wars:

    • Yugoslavia was firmly on the course toward breaking up with the death of Tito in 1980
    • Slovenia and Croatia were pro-Western
    • Serbia, due to historical ties and no allies elsewhere, was a pro-Russian state.
    • Bosnia was a battleground in-between
    • Serbia was seeking to expand its territory at the expense of Croatia and Bosnia
    • Serbia came into conflict with the two, with a three-way fight emerging in Bosnia
    • At the same time, NATO and the West saw an opportunity expand their geopolitical influence and recruit new allies (Croatia and Slovenia)
    • Turkey, alone among NATO powers, had its own special angle with regards to Bosnia and its (mostly nominal) Islamic population
    • Humanitarian tragedies and massacres in Bosnia captured the attention of Western politicians and public, thus eliciting sympathy
    • Overall, Serbia threw the dice, took a reckless gamble, sought territorial aggrandizement, and lost their stake, and some
    • Mostly Milosevic's fault. Though Tudjman and Izetbegović certainly weren't innocents either
    Its not the thread for this subject. What happened in the 20th century was a continuation of the policies from the 19th century.

    "The air battle over Niš occurred on 7 November 1944 over Niš, in Serbia, between the Air Forces of the United States and the Soviet Union in World War II due to both countries mistaking the other for Germans. This was only one of two direct military confrontations between the U.S. and the USSR in the history of these two countries, the other being the attack on the Sui-ho Dam taking place during the 1950-1953 Korean war.

    After the successful joint offensive in October 1944 and the expulsion of German forces to the north, the military units of the Red Army had been ordered to follow in their steps. On 7 November, a long column of vehicles belonging to 6th Guards Rifle Corps of the Red Army was moving from Niš towards Belgrade, with orders to reinforce the southern wing of the Hungarian front. Suddenly, at about 10 AM, from southeast over the Jastrebac mountain, three groups of American P-38 Lightning fighter planes arrived and the first group immediately started to strafe the leading vehicles, destroying several, with 31 killed and 37 wounded. The commander of the corps, Lieutenant General G. P. Kotov, was also killed in this attack.

    While the second group of US P-38 planes were starting their attack, the commander of the 17th Air Army, General Sudec, who was at the Niš airbase at the time, issued an order for immediate takeoff to the pilots on duty flying Yakovlev Yak-3 fighters from 659th Regiment of 288th Air Division based at Niš, believing they were being attacked by German Focke-Wulf Fw 189 fighters. The American planes shifted their fire to the Soviet fighters which were taking off in spite of clearly visible large red star markings on their wings. One of the Yak-3's was destroyed right away.

    The P-38s then climbed to about 500m and formed a defensive circle above the city of Niš itself, waiting to see how this uncertain situation would be resolved. According to aeronautical engineer Dragoslav Dimić, who as a child was among the gathered inhabitants of Niš, the remaining Soviet fighters flew over the old city fortress at an altitude of only 20m and attacked the Lightnings from below in a steep climb. One Lightning burst into flames and fell to the ground near the airstrip of the Niš airbase. The Yaks flew through the circling Lightnings and attacked them again, this time from above. One of the Yaks was hit by American fire and fell to the ground.

    Soon the battle was joined by a second group of Yaks led by a famous Soviet fighter ace Captain Koldunov, who took off from another airbase near Niš. The 'tangle of death' that formed in the air moved westward across the city with the sound of machine gun and cannon fire. 9 Soviet Yak-3 and an unidentified number of US P-38 fighters participated in the battle which lasted for about another 15 minutes. According to American author Glenn Bows, 4 Yaks and 2 Lightnings were lost, while Russian sources state that 3 Yaks and 4 P-38's had been destroyed. Joko Drecun, a partisan officer who was based at Niš airport at the time wrote in his diary that the Americans lost 7 planes and the Soviets lost 3 planes.

    The United States apologized to the Soviet Union, stating that the attack was the result of a grave error by American pilots sent to attack German forces on the road from Skopje to Pristina. On 14 December, American Ambassador to the Soviet Union W. Averell Harriman apologized on behalf of Franklin D. Roosevelt and George C. Marshall and offered to send liaison officers to the 3rd Ukrainian Front to prevent further incidents; Stalin rejected it, because a line of demarcation had been drawn indicating the boundaries of Allied air actions."

    And the same thing repeated in 1999 over Pristina airport. Coincidence...don't think so.

  7. #352
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    You can certainly go with your ideological preaching regarding "incels" and "paretos". You can call murder a form of "alloplastic defense". You can post all kinds of theories of what the reasons why things are the way they are with "incels" and "paretos", and ignore the simpler real-world reasons why things are the way they are. Everybody's got their own opinions, but nobody is convinced by anything you've said about "incels" and "paretos".

    I suggest finding an audience among the "incel" "community" on Reddit or something, and dropping this thread entirely, and find some other thread that interests you on the WAB. You're throwing good money after bad trying to convince people here of this ideology of yours.

    I'd personally rather be talking about Dyson Spheres, theoretical aliens who can see in the 2.4Ghz spectrum, alternate sci-fi WWII, and Bachelor Cuisine.
    If I say its safe to surf this beach, Captain, then its safe to surf this beach! I mean, I'm not afraid to surf this place, I'll surf this whole f--- place! -LTC Kilgore

  8. #353
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    You can certainly go with your ideological preaching regarding "incels" and "paretos". You can call murder a form of "alloplastic defense". You can post all kinds of theories of what the reasons why things are the way they are with "incels" and "paretos", and ignore the simpler real-world reasons why things are the way they are. Everybody's got their own opinions, but nobody is convinced by anything you've said about "incels" and "paretos".

    I suggest finding an audience among the "incel" "community" on Reddit or something, and dropping this thread entirely, and find some other thread that interests you on the WAB. You're throwing good money after bad trying to convince people here of this ideology of yours.

    I'd personally rather be talking about Dyson Spheres, theoretical aliens who can see in the 2.4Ghz spectrum, alternate sci-fi WWII, and Bachelor Cuisine.
    Duke, pareto principle is real and its not woman's fault because it exists. Its nature. They simply want the best genes to propagate the species. There is nothing more and nothing less in it. Problem is that the narrative that says that one day you will find your soulmate and get married is changed and that realization hits hard. People whom cannot take it, snap and commit crimes like this one. They take their rage on to the society because they feel tricked by the society. I am not trying to convince anyone, I am simply giving my view at the tragedy and the causes that triggered it.
    Last edited by Versus; 21 May 18, at 00:00.

  9. #354
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    This thread ran its course a long time ago and has been an embarrasement to the WAB from the beginning.

    Ironduke is correct: Try finding an audience among the "incel" "community" on Reddit or elsewhere. It certainly doesn't belong here.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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