Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: So, what about them marine infantry squads?

  1. #1
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,389

    So, what about them marine infantry squads?

    According to sporadic coverage on TFB and Task and Purpose, the Marine Gazette (which I can no longer access due to it being a members-only archived story), the USMC is apparently giving a serious look into 15-marine squads.

    A squad will consist of three four-men fireteams, including two assault teams and one fire support team, plus a three-men command team. Some or all team leaders tot M4A1s, while the remainder are armed with HK416-variants, including the M27 infantry automatic rifles, a few marksman's rifles and one M249 LMG, sprinkled with under-slung grenade launchers, with Suppressors all around. I recall the fire support team humps a Karl Gustav and maybe LAW or AT4s. Plus a UAV and a counter-UAV system, and a radio.

    This really looks a bit like a WWI rifle section and quite a bit lighter on automatic suppressive firepower vs traditional infantry layouts. My uneducated guess is that they anticipate a lot of close quarters battle where marines would fight as assaulters, that deficits in volume of fire would be made up for by vehicle-mounted .50 cal HMGs, and that they deem 16-inch barrel is a decent enough solution for both close in work and fights out to 400m and beyond.

    Would that actually work?
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  2. #2
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    07 Apr 05
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    380
    They've been talking about changing the basic 13-Marine rifle squad for the last 20-30 years, but all talk has been reducing the number of Marines in the squad. Can't see them going bigger due to manpower constraints. The Assault Squad has always been part of weapons platoon and they'd be farmed out as required - was nice as they could be concentrated easily to focus power at the critical spot.

    Never rely on vehicles for fire support, there's always some terrain that keeps them from showing. Or there late. Or broken down on the side of the road.

  3. #3
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Apr 06
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    2,389
    Anyone know is there going to be a phase out of M249 on the squad level?
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  4. #4
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    07 Apr 05
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    380
    Quote Originally Posted by Triple C View Post
    Anyone know is there going to be a phase out of M249 on the squad level?
    I believe the plan is to replace all the M249s with M27s. The SAWs are just worn out. See this Mil.com article for more on the M27 and it's fielding within the USMC:
    https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/...ne-grunts.html

  5. #5
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    13 Nov 07
    Posts
    3,848
    Quote Originally Posted by JCT View Post
    I believe the plan is to replace all the M249s with M27s. The SAWs are just worn out. See this Mil.com article for more on the M27 and it's fielding within the USMC:
    https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/...ne-grunts.html
    The M27 seems so different from the 249. How can one replace the other?

  6. #6
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,638
    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    The M27 seems so different from the 249. How can one replace the other?
    Automatic Rifleman is a position.

    It started with 1 member of each fire team equipped with the BAR, then the M14A1 (a selective fire variant). When the M-16/M-16A1 came out one member of each fire team was issued a bipod and 4 extra magazines and served as the autoriflemen....other members of the team shot on semiauto.

    With the advent of the M249 SAW the M16A2 went to the 3 round burst option.

    The M27 is much more accurate than the M249. The Marines believe well aimed, accurate fire is a better suppressor than an inaccurate high volume of fire.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  7. #7
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    07 Apr 05
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    380
    Yes, much more accurate, plus the lower ammo consumption simplifies logistics to a point.

    But the amount of fire the SAWs could lay down was impressive. Employed as a base of fire, it could put a lot of lead down range in support of your attack. Unfortunately, the other two squads were slowed by the SAW in their fireteams. So good with the bad, but probably too much with our already overloaded infantry burden.

  8. #8
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Jan 06
    Location
    DPRK, Demokratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
    Posts
    23,795
    A 15-man squad with a fire support team and a command team feels like a half platoon. Let's enlarge each fire team to 5 members (leader, automatic rifleman, grenadier, 2 rifleman), 4 teams led by a command team of 3 people, and attach a heavy weapons team with mortar and machinegun. Hey....we have a platoon.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  9. #9
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,638
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    A 15-man squad with a fire support team and a command team feels like a half platoon. Let's enlarge each fire team to 5 members (leader, automatic rifleman, grenadier, 2 rifleman), 4 teams led by a command team of 3 people, and attach a heavy weapons team with mortar and machinegun. Hey....we have a platoon.
    No, you need 3 full squads.

    Often times you need to calf off a squad to beef up another unit or mission.

    Also the 3 squads a platoon leader/commander to gain contact with one squad, provide supporting fires with another squad and maneuver to a flank or a weakness with the third. Also allows for an efficient retrograde.

    Also, at that junior of a grade, 5 separate elements are often beyond the span of control of a young lieutenant.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  10. #10
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Mar 05
    Location
    Panama City Fl
    Posts
    8,793
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post

    Also, at that junior of a grade, 5 separate elements are often beyond the span of control of a young lieutenant.
    Let me fix that for you

    at that junior of a grade, 1 element is often beyond the span of control of a young lieutenant
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  11. #11
    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Mar 05
    Location
    Panama City Fl
    Posts
    8,793
    Know what a Marine rifle squad needs?

    Vasquez

    Name:  Vasquez.png
Views: 144
Size:  216.0 KB

    Name:  Vasquez_and_Drake_with_Smart_Guns.png
Views: 146
Size:  717.7 KB
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

  12. #12
    Senior Contributor Red Team's Avatar
    Join Date
    04 Oct 11
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    768
    For the smart gun or the morale boost?
    "Draft beer, not people."

  13. #13

    Military Professional
    Military Professional S2's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Sep 06
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    10,828
    "For the smart gun or the morale boost?"

    Yes.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  14. #14
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,638
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Let me fix that for you
    Just so long as you salute and call me Sir, Hotshot.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  15. #15
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    07 Apr 05
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    380
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    No, you need 3 full squads.

    Often times you need to calf off a squad to beef up another unit or mission.

    Also the 3 squads a platoon leader/commander to gain contact with one squad, provide supporting fires with another squad and maneuver to a flank or a weakness with the third. Also allows for an efficient retrograde.

    Also, at that junior of a grade, 5 separate elements are often beyond the span of control of a young lieutenant.
    Three squads are a proven tactical advantage. As mentioned, more squads become too difficult to track and control. Less is not flexible enough. Adding an integral heavy weapons squad, either a machine gun and/or mortar, would slow down the platoon too much. They can be farmed out as needed. Keep these assets at the Company level where they can be used to reinforce the main effort and not dispersed ineffectively.

    USMC is constantly trying to tinker with the size of the squad and I think they are leaning on technology in an effort to reduce the size (to keep budgets down, a significant portion of USMC budget goes to personnel paychecks.) Over the years they've had some huge exercises to try and test the concept. One was to turn every fire team into a FO/FAC team and let supporting arms take down the enemy. There was a big exercise in 29 Palms to test this and the test unit was seeded throughout the AO. The OPFOR didn't play nice. Knowing that they would be facing something different, they did somethign different. Instead of a big armor formation trying to force its way down the desert valleys where'd it be easily spotted and picked off by TACAIR, the OPFOR also dispersed and moved in sections or even individually. Made themselves hard targets and negated the increased comms capability and supporting arms advantage of the Blue team.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Army vs Marine Infantry
    By gangle in forum Ground Warfare
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 16 Nov 09,, 17:50
  2. Hamas Arrests First Rocket Squads Since Truce
    By JAD_333 in forum The Middle East and North Africa
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 19 Jul 08,, 19:35
  3. Best IFV for naval infantry
    By Stoner in forum Ground Warfare
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 15 May 07,, 20:28
  4. Saddam’s pilots hunted down by death squads
    By troung in forum The Middle East and North Africa
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 16 Apr 06,, 09:42
  5. Suicide squads being formed to kill Shias
    By Ray in forum International Politics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06 Dec 05,, 14:32

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •