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Thread: China's mass surveillance state

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Not a shred of evidence, I see.

    Manufacturing didn’t rise 10% in 2008, construction 9.5%, M-2 17.8%, exports 17.2%, imports 18.5%, and the forex reserves by $417.8 billion.

    The IMF, ADB, FT and The Economist are nothing but fake news to you, because you know and everyone else just does the hard research.

    Got it. Sorry I wasted my time with you.
    yeah whatever DOR, not like you couldn't Google it yourself, it's that easy to find....you just keep your eye on that Chinese economic data, using strategies & techniques like... "A minus is a plus, because that's just us!" and "P2P.R.100%.A.OK"

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/econ...other-headache
    http://asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-e...ats-44791.html

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    I was referring to Oracle challenging you to name another Asian country that adopted similar economic policies to the current Chinese ones. You never did oblige him.



    You realise the current financial year is only 2 years out from the last in DOR's list right? What unprecedented event has occurred in these 2 years?
    You're just lazy, you can look all of this up by yourself... guess it's more fun watching me jump through hoops

    Peer 2 Peer lending has crashed'
    https://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/...0180723-h131co

    Local Governments are running out of money because lending is drying up
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Pic...mpanies-teeter
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Chi...n-shadow-banks
    https://en.nikkoam.com/articles/2015...on-the-shadows

    The Belt and Road Bubble is starting to burst and their zombie companies need it to survive
    http://www.atimes.com/article/chines...-layoff-fears/
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/06/27...ting-to-burst/

    Regional banks hit by economic slodown and bad loans soaring
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1KE0IF

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by the bolded part. How does that relate to lending to other countries.

    What you're saying is China seems to have a federalist streak and that the centre's grip over the country is weakening at least when it comes to economic affairs.


    Doesn't Rajapaksa share any blame here ? he wasn't strong armed into signing the agreement. He went into the deal knowing full well what the consequences would be. Yet he still went ahead.


    People use that term frequently. Colonisation implies loss of sovereiginty.

    You mean to tell me Sri Lanka has zero say over what the Chinese do with Hambantota ?

    You' re also assuming the Chinese will stay the full term of the lease.



    SOE's do have an advantage, comparing the top 5 constuction companies these days to fifteen years ago shows the Chinese are dominant in this space, like the Koreans and Japanese were decades earlier.
    Well I'm not the only one who thinks it's colonialism
    China is turning Sri Lanka into a modern day “semi-colony,” the same way Great Britain and Portugal turned south China into their own semi-colonies back in the mid of 19th century.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmo.../#4787cc477446

    Sri Lanka – the prey of Chinese neocolonialism
    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/sri-...eocolonialism/
    China in Africa: win-win development, or a new colonialism?
    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ew-colonialism
    Mahathir, China and neo-colonialism
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Maha...eo-colonialism
    Chinese colonialism?

    Hell that's not even all the links....just google China colonialism and enjoy
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-18901656

  4. #64
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    Well I'm not the only one who thinks it's colonialism

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmo.../#4787cc477446

    Sri Lanka – the prey of Chinese neocolonialism
    https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/sri-...eocolonialism/
    China in Africa: win-win development, or a new colonialism?
    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ew-colonialism
    Mahathir, China and neo-colonialism
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Maha...eo-colonialism
    Chinese colonialism?

    Hell that's not even all the links....just google China colonialism and enjoy
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-18901656
    Reply here

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    The fantasy about the rise of China is fake, they’re nowhere near the American economy, they just wish they were. You just keep buying all the crap they are selling you ok... now nod you head.

    In a way I think the Lady (welcome by the way) has a point about the whole "creating growth from debt" but then the US or UK economies are not innocent of the same tricks with the whole "quantitative easing" which actually amounted to creating billions of US$ and UK£ out of thin air. The ECB did the same. So while it is one thing to have a go at China for politically motivated credit easing I do not think others can held as all virtuous in such regard.

    I would also add this piece of advice to our newcomer; I have broken just about everyone of zravers "survival tips" - often butted heads with the Colonel and found that there are two types of people on this board; rude people who will take the first opportunity to attack you personally rather than discuss the point at issue and polite people who will stick to the issue. DOR is in the latter category - even though I disagree with him on politics and economics he will never put words in your mouth or insult you personally. You would do well to follow his example.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    In a way I think the Lady (welcome by the way) has a point about the whole "creating growth from debt" but then the US or UK economies are not innocent of the same tricks with the whole "quantitative easing" which actually amounted to creating billions of US$ and UK£ out of thin air. The ECB did the same. So while it is one thing to have a go at China for politically motivated credit easing I do not think others can held as all virtuous in such regard.

    I would also add this piece of advice to our newcomer; I have broken just about everyone of zravers "survival tips" - often butted heads with the Colonel and found that there are two types of people on this board; rude people who will take the first opportunity to attack you personally rather than discuss the point at issue and polite people who will stick to the issue. DOR is in the latter category - even though I disagree with him on politics and economics he will never put words in your mouth or insult you personally. You would do well to follow his example.
    Thank you for the welcome and the advice. I unfortunately disagree with what you said about DOR, he is lovely... until he is condescending, and that is fine but then he should not sulk if I reply in kind.

    Yes western countries do use the same techniques but the difference is this, a property boom should be fueled/supported by the economy, not "be" the economy.

    When a country print/create too much money like China has it is usually accompanied by inflation, the reason why China has not experienced high inflation is because they took property away from the villagers and enriched a small percentage of people at the top, who used this money and inflated investment products, the reason the sharemarkets and property markets are over valued.

    The waste of money has also been awful and I find it interesting this same pattern of extreme waste in Russia's wealthy. Perhaps post-communists can't handle capitalism, they have little sense of the value of money.

    for example

    Chinese invest millions in bottles of Bordeaux... then drink them: Experts predict a good year for fine wine investment

    Asian customers are buying up cases of wine and drinking it rather than selling it on like British and European collectors, according to the live trading platform BI Fine Wine.

    Almost half its sales came from customers in Asia last year, most of them in China, Hong Kong, Indonesia and Singapore.
    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/m...-drink-it.html

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Reply here
    I replied where you linked to but I received a "wait for approval" message, so hopefully it will show up

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    Yes western countries do use the same techniques but the difference is this, a property boom should be fueled/supported by the economy, not "be" the economy.
    Well it was the "sub prime mortgage lending" that set off the 2008 economic crisis which was arguably in part caused by low interest rates. In other words people were selling properties to buyers who could not afford it - then selling on these mortgages as negotiable instruments in their own right. I am not sure it is so different. Nor can I see how a 'property boom' (or collapse) can not be part of an economy. It is bound up in how much people borrow and invest elsewhere.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Well it was the "sub prime mortgage lending" that set off the 2008 economic crisis which was arguably in part caused by low interest rates. In other words people were selling properties to buyers who could not afford it - then selling on these mortgages as negotiable instruments in their own right. I am not sure it is so different. Nor can I see how a 'property boom' (or collapse) can not be part of an economy. It is bound up in how much people borrow and invest elsewhere.
    Here is a piece I clipped from Dinny McMahon's book "China's Great Wall of Debt"

    "Real estate —which includes shopping malls and office towers as well as apartments, both of which are suffering their own gluts —is the bedrock of the Chinese economy, accounting for about 20% of GDP in 2013, a level similar to that of both Spain and Ireland when they were hit by the Eurozone crisis, and triple the level of the United States prior to the subprime-mortgage crisis.
    But real estate’s contribution to the economy is actually far greater than these levels suggest. Housing construction is essential to buoying dozens of industries that are already mired in overcapacity, like steel, cement, and glass. Moreover, construction provides employment for 16% of the urban population. And with banks making about 30% of their loans to the property sector, the health of the financial system requires buoyant property prices. Given that two-thirds of all housing sales are in China’s smaller cities (loosely, those occupying the third tier and lower), a glut means that developers build less housing and buy less land. Local governments are worse off, because they no longer have the resources to stimulate the local economy with public works, or to repay their debts.

  10. #70
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    There's a really great book on the topic,

    China's Great Wall of Debt: Shadow Banks, Ghost Cities, Massive Loans, and the End of the Chinese Miracle
    Written by Australian Financial Journalist Dinny McMahon who lived in China for many years, now I understand there are those who dislike Australians but we are very in tune with what goes on in China, this is our backyard and what happens in China impacts us greatly.
    http://www.chinafile.com/library/boo...t-wall-of-debt

    Author starts off by saying he won't be making predictions for the reasons DOR mentioned in #25

    Can't find anything wrong in what he says either. I'm sure i've read similar here over the years

    Author doesn't think the growth story can continue due to the way it is being fueled which is different to saying its all going to come crashing down



    Longer interview

    Building things with no demand for the sake of growth sounds a lot like paying some one to dig a hole and fill it up. Keynesian. This to ward off a global depression. This would be important closer to 2008 than now i'd have thought.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Sep 18, at 02:00.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    http://www.chinafile.com/library/boo...t-wall-of-debt

    Author starts off by saying he won't be making predictions for the reasons DOR mentioned in #25

    Can't find anything wrong in what he says either. I'm sure i've read similar here over the years

    Author doesn't think the growth story can continue due to the way it is being fueled which is different to saying its all going to come crashing down
    Did you miss the part where I posted the zombie pic... zombie economy is not 'all come crashing down" I don't even recall using those words anyway. I also mentioned China shoving the loans in a black box and waiting for inflation to chew it up...enter the zombie economy status. I think you have a perception of what you think I'm saying and responding to that.

  12. #72
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    Did you miss the part where I posted the zombie pic... zombie economy is not 'all come crashing down" I don't even recall using those words anyway. I also mentioned China shoving the loans in a black box and waiting for inflation to chew it up...enter the zombie economy status. I think you have a perception of what you think I'm saying and responding to that.
    I'm trying to figure out what the big argument was even about because i've not heard Dinny say anything controversial here.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Sep 18, at 09:06.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I'm trying to figure out what the big argument was even about because i've not hard Dinny say anything controversial here.
    The piece I quoted was in response to Snapper's post he questions my statement that China's property boom "is" the economy
    I am not sure it is so different. Nor can I see how a 'property boom' (or collapse) can not be part of an economy. It is bound up in how much people borrow and invest elsewhere.
    I can probaby add this piece I clipped to evernote too (from the book)

    "According to Unirule, a Beijing-based economics think tank set up by one of China’s most famous liberal economists, between 2001 and 2009, China’s state-owned firms collectively generated profits of 5.8 trillion yuan. But if those companies had paid market rates for items like land, credit, water, and electricity, and hadn’t received any cash subsidies or tax rebates and holidays, there would have been no profit at all.
    Beijing sets targets for its local governments, these local governments then invest their government subsidies and loans in projects that provide them with the fastest growth, which is property and infrastructure. Their export industry is heavily subsidised and without these subsidies they are not profitable at all.... this is how they ended up with a property economy, the singular shortsighted focus and drive to meet those growth targets, not create profitable industry that can sustain the country through a downturn.

    Also, DE I did look at those You Tube vids you linked to, (my posts are not apearing) honestly those four people has to be the most boring people on the planet, highly qualified at giving a non answer. One is plugging his book, she is selling China and the other guy has vague even more down than the other two. The hostess asks point blank if China will bail out emerging markets involved in Belt and Road and they can't give a straight answer (32minutes in)... all they do is fluff around the topic. Of course China won't they'll simply seize assets if the loans are not repaid, we have exhibit A... Sri Lanka's port.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    The piece I quoted was in response to Snapper's post he questions my statement that China's property boom "is" the economy
    She.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    She.
    noted

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