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Thread: China's mass surveillance state

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I've heard about hybrid warfare used more by the Russians on democracies and others. You saw this in Europe last year with the numerous elections there where they blatantly support far right candidates with the aim of weakening the EU should these wards come to power. Weaken the EU and dismantle NATO are Russian aims. Where do you see the Chinese doing any of this ?

    The Chinese way of state capture, helped when you have dictators in charge is to hold a country's debt. If China or Russia for that matter hold 20% or more of a country's debt then the govt of that country is more beholden to the creditors than its people. Add to this all Chinese loans are insured by Chinese insurance companies and the premiums are paid upfront before the loan is granted. So who ever in China that makes the loan is covered.

    CPEC is one way to counter the Americans. But whatever ports, bases they have are owned by the countries concerned. Hambantota isn't sovereign Chinese territory. A lease is a lease. A lease does not confer ownership, just possession. Bombing any of that infrastructure isn't an attack on China though killing their personnel might be
    You are refering to the Sri Lankan port that was handed over on a 99 year lease to China. China's Belt and Road project is tilted to benefit China, they insist on the use of Chinese labour and materials, then when a country can't repay the loan, a loan that were unethical in the first place imo, they seize strategic assets. Belt and Road is geared to help China achieve it's GDP targets, some refer to it as a new form of colonization.

    BTW the Chinese wrote the book on "hybrid" or rather they named it "unrestricted warfare"... and I found that information here on your forum, in your library of books. The book itself is titled Unrestricted warfare published in 1999.

    The White House has released a very important document that describes all the methods China is using to undermine, weaken and basically wage war against America. If you doubt China's commitment to unrestricted warfare you should probably take a look at it. It also explains the Trump Admnistrations Trade war, not a kneejerk tantrum by an orange baby after all.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten....18.18-PDF.pdf

    How China’s Economic Aggression Threatens the Technologies and Intellectual Property of the United States and the World

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    :lol:



    There's a really great book on the topic,

    China's Great Wall of Debt: Shadow Banks, Ghost Cities, Massive Loans, and the End of the Chinese Miracle
    Written by Australian Financial Journalist Dinny McMahon who lived in China for many years, now I understand there are those who dislike Australians but we are very in tune with what goes on in China, this is our backyard and what happens in China impacts us greatly.
    What a coincidence! DOR is also a China expert. They cancel each other out. My position reverts to neutral! Just kidding. Not even close.

    Those are valid assessments of the Chinese economy, but nothing we don't already know. So don't give the "lol, I bet you don't know about this." I like to get back to the fundamentals. The reason for the Chinese slow down is that it's reached a limit of the easier ways to boost productivity - urbanisation, adoption of Western technology and managerial expertise, but the wheels are not falling off.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    hboGYT, the way to go about it is backing up with arguments and sources, instead of one liners that hold zero value.
    He has made sweeping generalisations based a few articles that aim to highlight specific problems.

    Somehow, I doubt that Chinese economy has exhausted all profitable investment opportunities or that Chinese exports in general are no longer profitable, despite advantages in supply chain, poor regulation and a relatively educated labour force.

    Show me data of Chinese exports of a product to a country falling off a cliff after that country has successfully challenged the alleged subsidies at WTO, and I'll consider his position plausible.

    Citing books and articles mean nothing on their own, as I have read just as many books and articles that say the opposite.
    Last edited by hboGYT; 27 Aug 18, at 15:04.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    What a coincidence! DOR is also a China expert. They cancel each other out. My position reverts to neutral.
    No one is a China expert in here. NO ONE. China watchers, I'm sure are many. The only one who's a China expert is not present now.

    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    He has made sweeping generalisations based a few articles that aim to highlight specific problems.

    Somehow, I doubt that Chinese economy has exhausted all profitable investment opportunities or that Chinese exports in general are no longer profitable, despite advantages in supply chain, poor regulation and a relatively educated labour force.

    Show me data of Chinese exports of a product to a country falling off a cliff after that country has successfully challenged the alleged subsidies at WTO, and I'll consider his position plausible.

    Citing books and articles mean nothing on their own, as I have read just as many books and articles that say the opposite.
    No generalisations have been made. Aquila backed up his argument with sources. You however failed to do so with arguments or sources. Now go back and tackle the original post of Aquila before demanding anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    Citing books and articles mean nothing on their own, as I have read just as many books and articles that say the opposite.
    Then post what you've read and counter the arguments.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I've heard about hybrid warfare used more by the Russians on democracies and others. You saw this in Europe last year with the numerous elections there where they blatantly support far right candidates with the aim of weakening the EU should these wards come to power. Weaken the EU and dismantle NATO are Russian aims. Where do you see the Chinese doing any of this ?
    The Chinese are fairly new, give them some time.

    I have posted it, maybe a week before. When you have the time, please go through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The Chinese way of state capture, helped when you have dictators in charge is to hold a country's debt. If China or Russia for that matter hold 20% or more of a country's debt then the govt of that country is more beholden to the creditors than its people. Add to this all Chinese loans are insured by Chinese insurance companies and the premiums are paid upfront before the loan is granted. So who ever in China that makes the loan is covered.

    CPEC is one way to counter the Americans. But whatever ports, bases they have are owned by the countries concerned. Hambantota isn't sovereign Chinese territory. A lease is a lease. A lease does not confer ownership, just possession. Bombing any of that infrastructure isn't an attack on China though killing their personnel might be
    These kind of cyclic arguments that I keep hearing is why I support President Trump. And before you come up with another cyclic argument, do refer to the CPEC thread, and what we have NOT discussed. This is the generation of the rise of the right, and in some cases the far right. For the time-being, I can't say I am unhappy.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    No one is a China expert in here. NO ONE. China watchers, I'm sure are many. The only one who's a China expert is not present now.



    No generalisations have been made. Aquila backed up his argument with sources. You however failed to do so with arguments or sources. Now go back and tackle the original post of Aquila before demanding anything else.



    Then post what you've read and counter the arguments.
    No generalisations? What is this then? "because that is what is keeping the Chinese economy going.. more debt and a black box to stick it all in. Chinese exports have stopped being profitable a decade ago (their profit mainly due to subsidies from the state designed to ensure US and other companies go out of business), their GDP and other economic data is fake... tweaked to please"

    Edit: I have calmed down now. It was just infuriating to read something like "Chinese exports are not profitable without subsidies". That sounded derisive of an entire people's ingenuity, hard work and entrepreneurship. Maybe I was just too sensitive.

    I can demand whatever I want. It's up to Aquila whether to accept my challenge or not. If not, we both go on believing whatever we want to believe. He has also made a testable hypothesis, that the wheels will fall off the Chinese economy in 2 years. We shall see whether he's correct or not without any of us having to do anything.

    He can also not treat my demand as a challenge, but rather as a cause to re-evaluate his understanding.

    I don't book mark my articles when I read the FT or AFR. Understand that finding a multi-year-old articles in publications I'm subscribed to is laborious enough, not to mention publications of which I have discontinued my subscription or hard-copy books. But I will still do so when I get some time just to prove a point - I remember your argument with DOR. You're a knowledgeable person, but with all due respect and no offence intended, I consider it a gish gallop. Here's my challenge, if I am able to post the articles I have read, you consider ending your silent treatment for DOR? XD
    Last edited by hboGYT; 27 Aug 18, at 15:57.

  6. #36
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    The Chinese are fairly new, give them some time.
    yes but the opposition is growing too. How often i hear this Brahma Chellaney coined term 'debt trap diplomacy'

    Chinese appear to have Nepal & Maldives in the bag. Lost in Malaysia though


    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I have posted it, maybe a week before. When you have the time, please go through it.
    ok, so that is one attempt by China to throw the elections in Sri Lanka. Interfering in the political process like Russia.

    Then why did our RAW chief get thrown out of Sri Lanka for attempting to do the same.


    These kind of cyclic arguments that I keep hearing is why I support President Trump. And before you come up with another cyclic argument, do refer to the CPEC thread, and what we have NOT discussed. This is the generation of the rise of the right, and in some cases the far right. For the time-being, I can't say I am unhappy.
    What is cyclic about it ? or you just mean i'm repeating the same thing well thats as a reaction to what you're saying.

    All i hear is China taking over the world and testing it. Trying to pierce through the hype. We do that in this place.

    Russia is supporting the far right within a euro context, some would say even in the states.

    Russia's attempts drew a blank in all euro countries that had elections. France, Germany, Netherlands, Austria.

    I've been hearing about rise of the right for a few years now. It was supposed to happen after the financial crisis in 2008. As i pointed out to snapper who said it at the time, the reality was every affected euro country swung left. Greece is a case in point where they went far left.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 18, at 18:03.

  7. #37
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    You are refering to the Sri Lankan port that was handed over on a 99 year lease to China. China's Belt and Road project is tilted to benefit China, they insist on the use of Chinese labour and materials, then when a country can't repay the loan, a loan that were unethical in the first place imo, they seize strategic assets. Belt and Road is geared to help China achieve it's GDP targets, some refer to it as a new form of colonization.
    I think the countries that accept these loans are equally responsible don't you think ? the reason i'm saying this is because the opposition is pointing the finger at various foreign policy setbacks India has faced and laying the blame on the incumbent but hey the govts in those countries get off scot free. Totally innocent.

    Mahatir was questioning the high prices for projects and it turns out that all bribes required to complete the project are included in the price. THIS IS WHY the terms are secret. Who is the party insisting on secret terms then. Chinese won't refuse, they want the project they will get it one way or another. They don't face any investigations at home about such practices.

    Countries whose people haven't got much of a say are the most vulnerable. Sri Lanka was an exception. On the financial task forces black list. Nobody would lend to Sri Lanka after the war with the Tamils. In jump the Chinese with terms that Rajapaksa agreed to. India was offered the same project earlier but refused it because there was no way to make it viable. Why then do the laws of supply and demand change for Rajapaksa when the Chinese offer it.

    All this is to say the Chinese can only take over if they have cooperative partners who for their own political reasons, Rajapkasa needed funds for the next election (which he lost) have no problems plunging their own countries in debt

    The CPEC thread isn't only about China in Pakistan, i tried to find all instances where China is involved in numerous countries to figure out patterns. Where they're winning and losing. What makes it harder to see through things is the Chinese don't mind this big bad image that is being created. It works to their advantage.

    BTW the Chinese wrote the book on "hybrid" or rather they named it "unrestricted warfare"... and I found that information here on your forum, in your library of books. The book itself is titled Unrestricted warfare published in 1999.
    They are late to the party, Russians have at least two centuries head start keeping the west up at night. There have been accusations of Aussie politicians being on China's payroll. So its spreading. Campaign financing is new achilles heel of all democracies. Or is it just same old, newer bigger lobbies entering the fray. You got a new PM again i heard.

    The White House has released a very important document that describes all the methods China is using to undermine, weaken and basically wage war against America. If you doubt China's commitment to unrestricted warfare you should probably take a look at it. It also explains the Trump Admnistrations Trade war, not a kneejerk tantrum by an orange baby after all.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten....18.18-PDF.pdf

    How China’s Economic Aggression Threatens the Technologies and Intellectual Property of the United States and the World
    This is the result of Xi's 2025 plan. It's about competition. Australia is on board if you see they disallowed Huawei from doing 5G contracts in Australia. Ten years back India pushed back on Huawei's routers when the Americans were raising the same concerns. Prevent the Chinese military from getting an in into the nervous system

    China was accepted into the global system on the idea that at some point they'd be absorbed and become like everybody else. That assumption is being questioned right now. I don't have a problem with what Trump's trying. The trade deficit with China is unsustainable. He could end up opening up China for everybody. Chinese have said they want to import $10 trillion worth from the world. Maybe the Trump effect is already working.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 18, at 23:32.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    No generalisations? What is this then? "because that is what is keeping the Chinese economy going.. more debt and a black box to stick it all in. Chinese exports have stopped being profitable a decade ago (their profit mainly due to subsidies from the state designed to ensure US and other companies go out of business), their GDP and other economic data is fake... tweaked to please"
    Then argue for the merit of it. Argue, provide sources and back it up. It's not very hard to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    Edit: I have calmed down now. It was just infuriating to read something like "Chinese exports are not profitable without subsidies". That sounded derisive of an entire people's ingenuity, hard work and entrepreneurship. Maybe I was just too sensitive.

    I can demand whatever I want. It's up to Aquila whether to accept my challenge or not. If not, we both go on believing whatever we want to believe. He has also made a testable hypothesis, that the wheels will fall off the Chinese economy in 2 years. We shall see whether he's correct or not without any of us having to do anything.

    He can also not treat my demand as a challenge, but rather as a cause to re-evaluate his understanding.

    I don't book mark my articles when I read the FT or AFR. Understand that finding a multi-year-old articles in publications I'm subscribed to is laborious enough, not to mention publications of which I have discontinued my subscription or hard-copy books. But I will still do so when I get some time just to prove a point - I remember your argument with DOR. You're a knowledgeable person, but with all due respect and no offence intended, I consider it a gish gallop. Here's my challenge, if I am able to post the articles I have read, you consider ending your silent treatment for DOR? XD
    I don't have any clue what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Oracle; 27 Aug 18, at 19:18.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    ok, so that is one attempt by China to throw the elections in Sri Lanka. Interfering in the political process like Russia.
    I showed you one example, doesn't mean there aren't others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Then why did our RAW chief get thrown out of Sri Lanka for attempting to do the same.
    We very well know the answer. I'm not repeating it in an open forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    What is cyclic about it ? or you just mean i'm repeating the same thing well thats as a reaction to what you're saying.

    All i hear is China taking over the world and testing it. Trying to pierce through the hype. We do that in this place.

    Russia is supporting the far right within a euro context, some would say even in the states.

    Russia's attempts drew a blank in all euro countries that had elections. France, Germany, Netherlands, Austria.

    I've been hearing about rise of the right for a few years now. It was supposed to happen after the financial crisis in 2008. As i pointed out to snapper who said it at the time, the reality was every affected euro country swung left. Greece is a case in point where they went far left.
    Do we see a pattern here? Threads that are critical of China getting hijacked. I will leave it at this.
    Last edited by Oracle; 27 Aug 18, at 18:43.
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  10. #40
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Back to the topic at hand.

    China's Surveillance State Should Scare Everyone

    Imagine a society in which you are rated by the government on your trustworthiness. Your “citizen score” follows you wherever you go. A high score allows you access to faster internet service or a fast-tracked visa to Europe. If you make political posts online without a permit, or question or contradict the government’s official narrative on current events, however, your score decreases. To calculate the score, private companies working with your government constantly trawl through vast amounts of your social media and online shopping data.

    When you step outside your door, your actions in the physical world are also swept into the dragnet: The government gathers an enormous collection of information through the video cameras placed on your street and all over your city. If you commit a crime—or simply jaywalk—facial recognition algorithms will match video footage of your face to your photo in a national ID database. It won’t be long before the police show up at your door.

    This society may seem dystopian, but it isn’t farfetched: It may be China in a few years. The country is racing to become the first to implement a pervasive system of algorithmic surveillance. Harnessing advances in artificial intelligence and data mining and storage to construct detailed profiles on all citizens, China’s communist party-state is developing a “citizen score” to incentivize “good” behavior. A vast accompanying network of surveillance cameras will constantly monitor citizens’ movements, purportedly to reduce crime and terrorism. While the expanding Orwellian eye may improve “public safety,” it poses a chilling new threat to civil liberties in a country that already has one of the most oppressive and controlling governments in the world.

    China’s evolving algorithmic surveillance system will rely on the security organs of the communist party-state to filter, collect, and analyze staggering volumes of data flowing across the internet. Justifying controls in the name of national security and social stability, China originally planned to develop what it called a “Golden Shield” surveillance system allowing easy access to local, national, and regional records on each citizen. This ambitious project has so far been mostly confined to a content-filtering Great Firewall, which prohibits foreign internet sites including Google, Facebook, and The New York Times. According to Freedom House, China’s level of internet freedom is already the worst on the planet. Now, the Communist Party of China is finally building the extensive, multilevel data-gathering system it has dreamed of for decades.

    While the Chinese government has long scrutinized individual citizens for evidence of disloyalty to the regime, only now is it beginning to develop comprehensive, constantly updated, and granular records on each citizen’s political persuasions, comments, associations, and even consumer habits. The new social credit system under development will consolidate reams of records from private companies and government bureaucracies into a single “citizen score” for each Chinese citizen. In its comprehensive 2014 planning outline, the CCP explains a goal of “keep[ing] trust and constraints against breaking trust.” While the system is voluntary for now, it will be mandatory by 2020. Already, 100,000 Chinese citizens have posted on social media about high scores on a “Sesame Credit” app operated by Alibaba, in a private-sector precursor to the proposed government system. The massive e-commerce conglomerate claims its app is only tracking users’ financial and credit behavior, but promises to offer a “holistic rating of character.” It is not hard to imagine many Chinese boasting soon about their official scores.

    While it isn’t yet clear what data will be considered, commentators are already speculating that the scope of the system will be alarmingly wide. The planned “citizen credit” score will likely weigh far more data than the Western fico score, which helps lenders make fast and reliable decisions on whether to extend financial credit. While the latter simply tracks whether you’ve paid back your debts and managed your money well, experts on China and internet privacy have speculated—based on the vast amounts of online shopping data mined by the government without regard for consumer privacy—that your Chinese credit score could be higher if you buy items the regime likes—like diapers—and lower if you buy ones it doesn’t, like video games or alcohol. Well beyond the realm of online consumer purchasing, your political involvement could also heavily affect your score: Posting political opinions without prior permission or even posting true news that the Chinese government dislikes could decrease your rank.

    Even more worrying is that the government will be technically capable of considering the behavior of a Chinese citizen’s friends and family in determining his or her score. For example, it is possible that your friend’s anti-government political post could lower your own score. Thus, the scoring system would isolate dissidents from their friends and the rest of society, rendering them complete pariahs. Your score might even determine your access to certain privileges taken for granted in the U.S., such as a visa to travel abroad or or even the right to travel by train or plane within the country. One internet privacy expert warns: “What China is doing here is selectively breeding its population to select against the trait of critical, independent thinking.”

    While Westerners and especially civil liberties groups like the ACLU are horrified by such a prospect—one commentator called the possibility “authoritarianism, gamified”—others argue that because lack of trust is a serious problem in China, many Chinese welcome this potential system. However, a state-run, party-inspired, data-driven monitoring system poses profound questions for the West about the role of private companies in government surveillance. Is it ethical for private companies to assist in massive surveillance and turn over their data to the government? Alibaba (China’s Amazon) and Tencent (owner of the popular messaging platform WeChat) possess sweeping data on each Chinese citizen that the government would have to mine to calculate scores. Although Chinese companies now are required to assist in government spying while U.S. companies are not, it is possible to imagine Amazon in Alibaba’s position, or Facebook in place of Tencent. While private companies like credit scoring bureaus have always used data to measure consumers’ creditworthiness, in any decent society there must be a clear distinction between private-sector and public-sector scoring mechanisms that could determine access to citizen rights and privileges, without recourse.

    This planned data-focused social credit system is only one facet of China’s rapidly expanding system of algorithmic surveillance. Another is a sprawling network of technologies, especially surveillance cameras, to monitor people’s physical movements. In 2015, China’s national police force—the Ministry of Public Safety—called for the creation of an “omnipresent, completely connected, always on and fully controllable” national video surveillance network. MPS and other agencies stated that law enforcement should use facial recognition technology in combination with the video cameras to catch lawbreakers. One IHS Markit estimate puts the number of cameras in China at 176 million today, with a plan to have 450 million installed by 2020. One hundred percent of Beijing is now blanketed by surveillance cameras, according to the Beijing Public Safety Bureau.

    The stated goal of this system is to capture and deter criminals. However, it also poses obvious and massive risks to privacy and the modicum of freedom Chinese citizens have managed to gain since the Maoist era. The penalties for small crimes seem unreasonable: Authorities in Fuzhou are publishing the names of jaywalkers in local media and even sending them to their employers. More ominous, though, are the likely punishments that will be inflicted on people who associate with dissidents or critics, who circulate a petition or hold up a protest sign, or who simply wind up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thus, the installation of an all-seeing-eye for the government alarms civil liberties and privacy advocates worldwide. The government already constantly monitors the cell phones and social media of human-rights activists in the name of “stability maintenance.” A video surveillance system would enable further pervasive and repressive surveillance. Making streams publicly available, too, would threaten every citizen’s privacy: A busybody neighbor could easily spy on the activities of the family next door as they run errands or go on vacation.

    China’s experiments with digital surveillance pose a grave new threat to freedom of expression on the internet and other human rights in China. Increasingly, citizens will refrain from any kind of independent or critical expression for fear that their data will be read or their movements recorded—and penalized—by the government. And that is exactly the point of the program. Moreover, what emerges in China will not stay in China. Its repressive technologies have a pattern of diffusing to other authoritarian regimes around the world. For this reason—not to mention concern for the hundreds of millions of people in China whose meager freedom will be further diminished—democracies around the world must monitor and denounce this sinister creep toward an Orwellian world.
    Last edited by Oracle; 27 Aug 18, at 18:44.
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  11. #41
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I showed you one example, doesn't mean there aren't others.
    On a political level i can't think of any others. Taking advantage of a pre-existing condition, many. And that is the key point that comes across when you look at different countries that BRI is operational. The problem here is these countries are sovereign and make decision on their own. How to counter it, engage with them and offer alternatives. Japan is active, the US needs to pitch in. At one level BRI is so overly ambitious that the Chinese can't do it all by themselves, at another they insist on doing things their way which prevents others from participating.

    Turkmenistan has white elephant projects. Thing with the Turkmen is they don't get along with Russians too well right now so China has open play there. Rest of Central Asia is another. I posted a map showing which states are more at risk than others. Maldives. Pakistan more at risk than Sri Lanka but Sri Lanka is still CPEC's poster boy of how bad things can get.

    Some states are more vulnerable than others. No dispute. But China can force itself on others that are not ? China take all isn't as straightforward as its made out to be.

    We very well know the answer. I'm not repeating it in an open forum.
    Send me a message then

    Do we see a pattern here? Threads that are critical of China getting hijacked. I will leave it at this.
    We have a number of them which are long running at this point. Where's the opposition : )

    Critique all you want but can you spot the hype

    Chinese have a tendency to exaggerate. Was listening to a talk on two front conflict and one of the commentators mentioned China learnt to fly their fighter jets at night in 2012. It became headline news the next day. And people were surprised at something as little as that
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 18, at 21:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Then argue for the merit of it. Argue, provide sources and back it up. It's not very hard to understand.


    I don't have any clue what you're talking about.

    You know the generalisations to be untrue. For a start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_of_Valor, here's an export.

    You put DOR on your ignore list after demanding that he counter your flavour-of-the month articles with actual research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    You know the generalisations to be untrue. For a start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_of_Valor, here's an export.

    You put DOR on your ignore list after demanding that he counter your flavour-of-the month articles with actual research.
    You're here on WAB to talk about me and DOR? Post rebuttals of any argument you think is not quite correct, and we can go on from here as long as your argument relies on the thread topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I think the countries that accept these loans are equally responsible don't you think ? the reason i'm saying this is because the opposition is pointing the finger at various foreign policy setbacks India has faced and laying the blame on the incumbent but hey the govts in those countries get off scot free. Totally innocent.

    Mahatir was questioning the high prices for projects and it turns out that all bribes required to complete the project are included in the price. THIS IS WHY the terms are secret. Who is the party insisting on secret terms then. Chinese won't refuse, they want the project they will get it one way or another. They don't face any investigations at home about such practices.

    Countries whose people haven't got much of a say are the most vulnerable. Sri Lanka was an exception. On the financial task forces black list. Nobody would lend to Sri Lanka after the war with the Tamils. In jump the Chinese with terms that Rajapaksa agreed to. India was offered the same project earlier but refused it because there was no way to make it viable. Why then do the laws of supply and demand change for Rajapaksa when the Chinese offer it.

    All this is to say the Chinese can only take over if they have cooperative partners who for their own political reasons, Rajapkasa needed funds for the next election (which he lost) have no problems plunging their own countries in debt

    The CPEC thread isn't only about China in Pakistan, i tried to find all instances where China is involved in numerous countries to figure out patterns. Where they're winning and losing. What makes it harder to see through things is the Chinese don't mind this big bad image that is being created. It works to their advantage.


    They are late to the party, Russians have at least two centuries head start keeping the west up at night. There have been accusations of Aussie politicians being on China's payroll. So its spreading. Campaign financing is new achilles heel of all democracies. Or is it just same old, newer bigger lobbies entering the fray. You got a new PM again i heard.



    This is the result of Xi's 2025 plan. It's about competition. Australia is on board if you see they disallowed Huawei from doing 5G contracts in Australia. Ten years back India pushed back on Huawei's routers when the Americans were raising the same concerns. Prevent the Chinese military from getting an in into the nervous system

    China was accepted into the global system on the idea that at some point they'd be absorbed and become like everybody else. That assumption is being questioned right now. I don't have a problem with what Trump's trying. The trade deficit with China is unsustainable. He could end up opening up China for everybody. Chinese have said they want to import $10 trillion worth from the world. Maybe the Trump effect is already working.
    I missed this... don't receive notifications yet...not sure how this works...

    I think the countries that accept these loans are equally responsible don't you think ?
    No, I wouldn't call the loans unethical if I did. Lending money to someone when you know they can't repay it is unethical because you are doing it so you can take something they wouldn't otherwise give you... like a piece of their country. It would be naive to assume all countries are equally astute at handling their finances, they are not. If America or other Western countries did this the media would be screaming from the rooftops, we give them aid, for votes in the UN only for this very reason.

    Mahatir was questioning the high prices for projects and it turns out that all bribes required to complete the project are included in the price. THIS IS WHY the terms are secret. Who is the party insisting on secret terms then. Chinese won't refuse, they want the project they will get it one way or another. They don't face any investigations at home about such practices.
    The Malaysian issue is related to corruption by their former PM and exactly another reason why these loans are unethical, don't tell me the Chinese had no clue what they're arranging with Razak was illegal.
    https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/fo...03-p4zpaa.html

    As far as the Trade war goes, Trump Administration is looking for more than just an even trade balance, intelectual property is stolen, techonology is stolen, and unfair business practices cause Americans to lose their jobs. I'm not even sure the Chinese can give Trump what he wants because business practices in China is so corrupt Western companies would have to pay off hundreds if not thousands of officials just to operate in China.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    China's economy should have slowed when the rest of the world's did in 2007/8, instead they decided to feed their growth with vast amounts of debt, their shadow banking sector alone estimated somewhere in the vicinity of $10-12 trillion Dollars, no one really knows exactly how much. In July we saw the Peer2Peer sector collapse, there were demonstrations perhaps you missed them?
    https://www.ft.com/content/75e75628-...e-8771d5404543
    This month around 50 students disappeared when they tried to stage a protest on behalf of workers who lost their jobs wanting to start a Union
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...er-police-raid

    Then there are the local governments and their LGFV companies, highly indebted with signs they are unable to service their debt
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Pic...mpanies-teeter

    The egg is cracking and the only question is how long the Chinese can keep bailing out highly indebted companies and local governments, because that is what is keeping the Chinese economy going.. more debt and a black box to stick it all in. Chinese exports have stopped being profitable a decade ago (their profit mainly due to subsidies from the state designed to ensure US and other companies go out of business), their GDP and other economic data is fake... tweaked to please. As far as I'm concerned you may wait another year, maybe two... I'll be impressed if they can make it to three, give them a medal for anything past that.
    There is a reason that the claims that China was about to collapse, in 1981-82, or 1986-88, or 1997-98, or 2007-08, or 2016-17 were dead wrong. Let me know when you've begun to understand the country's history, and we can carry on the discussion.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

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