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Thread: China's mass surveillance state

  1. #16
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
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    Given the story that Chinese public security officers were able to find a suspect who had fled into a crowded stadium with their facial recognition software, I wonder if their tech is more advanced than Apple's cellphone unlock program.

    There was some talk that Chinese software had trouble IDing African residents.
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  2. #17
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Methods to co-opt ethnic Chinese include threatening to imprison family members of Uygur people living in the US unless they agree to spy for the party, the report said.
    Yes, China has been doing this for a while now in Australia, families of Chinese students will be "visited" by communist party members, students are also encouraged to push the party line and complain about not enough Chinese related material in curriculum.

    Of course the wheels are coming off the Chinese economy and the only way they can keep it from falling apart is to rule with an ever-increasing iron fist and an ever increasing line of credit, to continue feeding the infrastructure debt monster that drives China's growth. Aparently (interesting fact from a book I read) China created 63% of the worlds new money in the last decade through debt, that's more than the worlds other three largest economies combined. Unfortunately this "printing money through debt" policy has done much damage to Australia and other countries assest prices, so inflated and unafordable it has moved our societies towards higher inequality. Personally I look forward to the whold damn thing coming down, it's ridiculous.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    Yes, China has been doing this for a while now in Australia, families of Chinese students will be "visited" by communist party members, students are also encouraged to push the party line and complain about not enough Chinese related material in curriculum.

    Of course the wheels are coming off the Chinese economy and the only way they can keep it from falling apart is to rule with an ever-increasing iron fist and an ever increasing line of credit, to continue feeding the infrastructure debt monster that drives China's growth. Aparently (interesting fact from a book I read) China created 63% of the worlds new money in the last decade through debt, that's more than the worlds other three largest economies combined. Unfortunately this "printing money through debt" policy has done much damage to Australia and other countries assest prices, so inflated and unafordable it has moved our societies towards higher inequality. Personally I look forward to the whold damn thing coming down, it's ridiculous.
    You speak of it as if you have intimate knowledge. I'm very skeptical of any such claims. This has never happened to any Chinese students I know. What can the Chinese government gain from these students who are not in key government or commercial positions?

    I suspect students who claim they are being pressured by the Chinese government are using it as a ruse to support their asylum claims.

  5. #20
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    You speak of it as if you have intimate knowledge. I'm very skeptical of any such claims. This has never happened to any Chinese students I know. What can the Chinese government gain from these students who are not in key government or commercial positions?

    I suspect students who claim they are being pressured by the Chinese government are using it as a ruse to support their asylum claims.
    Chinese Informants In The Classroom: Pedagogical Strategies

    If you need more sources, please let me know. Always ready to oblige and educate.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Chinese Informants In The Classroom: Pedagogical Strategies

    If you need more sources, please let me know. Always ready to oblige and educate.
    I'm less skeptical now, but still am to some degree because such tacts accomplish little. Not sure why they try.

  7. #22
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    I'm less skeptical now, but still am to some degree because such tacts accomplish little.
    Such is the nature of authoritarian regimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    Not sure why they try.
    Control. Submission. Power.
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  8. #23
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    I'm less skeptical now, but still am to some degree because such tacts accomplish little. Not sure why they try.
    Counter anti-China perceptions from dissidents abroad. Using students as a bargaining chip to get Aussies to toe the line. More important that students educated there do no return and become trouble makers back home. Why all of a sudden this is an issue when it wasn't before bears further study.

    University education is a major business in Australia. If there was a boycott from China, costs of education for locals would rise and it would impact universities as well

    This puts a subtle pressure to conform to the CCP's views

    A study in controversy: Chinese students in Australia | Lowy | Jun 08 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    This has never happened to any Chinese students I know. What can the Chinese government gain from these students who are not in key government or commercial positions
    How about looking at it from the opposite direction

    some international students seem to understand that patriotic displays and cooperation with the government may enhance their future prospects in China. These local instances of opportunism mirror a broader feature of the Chinese Communist Party: the coexistence of individualism and, or within, a solidaristic collective.

    In a 2013 paper, Bruce Dickson, a professor at George Washington University, found that the youngest party members were much more likely than older cohorts to report “self-interest (such as helping their careers, advancing politically, and raising social status)” as a motive for joining the party.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 18, at 01:54.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    I'm less skeptical now, but still am to some degree because such tacts accomplish little. Not sure why they try.
    The Chinese call it unrestricted warfare, and America has known about it for almost two decades. It is only recently with Trump's election that the US has taken the steps to counter "unrestricted warfare" by China, Russia and Iran.

    https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-.../dp/1626543054

  10. #25
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post

    Of course the wheels are coming off the Chinese economy and the only way they can keep it from falling apart is to rule with an ever-increasing iron fist and an ever increasing line of credit, to continue feeding the infrastructure debt monster that drives .
    Of course, people have been predicting that the Chinese economy is on the verge of collapse for, oh, about 35 years.

    Still waiting...
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Of course, people have been predicting that the Chinese economy is on the verge of collapse for, oh, about 35 years.

    Still waiting...
    China's economy should have slowed when the rest of the world's did in 2007/8, instead they decided to feed their growth with vast amounts of debt, their shadow banking sector alone estimated somewhere in the vicinity of $10-12 trillion Dollars, no one really knows exactly how much. In July we saw the Peer2Peer sector collapse, there were demonstrations perhaps you missed them?
    https://www.ft.com/content/75e75628-...e-8771d5404543
    This month around 50 students disappeared when they tried to stage a protest on behalf of workers who lost their jobs wanting to start a Union
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...er-police-raid

    Then there are the local governments and their LGFV companies, highly indebted with signs they are unable to service their debt
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Pic...mpanies-teeter

    The egg is cracking and the only question is how long the Chinese can keep bailing out highly indebted companies and local governments, because that is what is keeping the Chinese economy going.. more debt and a black box to stick it all in. Chinese exports have stopped being profitable a decade ago (their profit mainly due to subsidies from the state designed to ensure US and other companies go out of business), their GDP and other economic data is fake... tweaked to please. As far as I'm concerned you may wait another year, maybe two... I'll be impressed if they can make it to three, give them a medal for anything past that.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    China's economy should have slowed when the rest of the world's did in 2007/8, instead they decided to feed their growth with vast amounts of debt, their shadow banking sector alone estimated somewhere in the vicinity of $10-12 trillion Dollars, no one really knows exactly how much. In July we saw the Peer2Peer sector collapse, there were demonstrations perhaps you missed them?
    https://www.ft.com/content/75e75628-...e-8771d5404543
    This month around 50 students disappeared when they tried to stage a protest on behalf of workers who lost their jobs wanting to start a Union
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...er-police-raid

    Then there are the local governments and their LGFV companies, highly indebted with signs they are unable to service their debt
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Pic...mpanies-teeter

    The egg is cracking and the only question is how long the Chinese can keep bailing out highly indebted companies and local governments, because that is what is keeping the Chinese economy going.. more debt and a black box to stick it all in. Chinese exports have stopped being profitable a decade ago (their profit mainly due to subsidies from the state designed to ensure US and other companies go out of business), their GDP and other economic data is fake... tweaked to please. As far as I'm concerned you may wait another year, maybe two... I'll be impressed if they can make it to three, give them a medal for anything past that.
    You have lost all credibility right there.

  13. #28
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    You have lost all credibility right there.
    hboGYT, the way to go about it is backing up with arguments and sources, instead of one liners that hold zero value.
    Last edited by Oracle; 27 Aug 18, at 13:02.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    You have lost all credibility right there.
    :lol:



    There's a really great book on the topic,

    China's Great Wall of Debt: Shadow Banks, Ghost Cities, Massive Loans, and the End of the Chinese Miracle
    Written by Australian Financial Journalist Dinny McMahon who lived in China for many years, now I understand there are those who dislike Australians but we are very in tune with what goes on in China, this is our backyard and what happens in China impacts us greatly.

  15. #30
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
    The Chinese call it unrestricted warfare, and America has known about it for almost two decades. It is only recently with Trump's election that the US has taken the steps to counter "unrestricted warfare" by China, Russia and Iran.

    https://www.amazon.com/Unrestricted-.../dp/1626543054
    I've heard about hybrid warfare used more by the Russians on democracies and others. You saw this in Europe last year with the numerous elections there where they blatantly support far right candidates with the aim of weakening the EU should these wards come to power. Weaken the EU and dismantle NATO are Russian aims. Where do you see the Chinese doing any of this ?

    The Chinese way of state capture, helped when you have dictators in charge is to hold a country's debt. If China or Russia for that matter hold 20% or more of a country's debt then the govt of that country is more beholden to the creditors than its people. Add to this all Chinese loans are insured by Chinese insurance companies and the premiums are paid upfront before the loan is granted. So who ever in China that makes the loan is covered.

    CPEC is one way to counter the Americans. But whatever ports, bases they have are owned by the countries concerned. Hambantota isn't sovereign Chinese territory. A lease is a lease. A lease does not confer ownership, just possession. Bombing any of that infrastructure isn't an attack on China though killing their personnel might be
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 18, at 13:28.

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