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Russian ex-spy critically ill after exposure to a "substance"

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    To me its a case of state sponsored terrorism. I'm not convinced of the rogue actor theory. Just hard to accept with Russia or China

    But what would the UK lose by following the procedure laid out ? would they risk the Russians weakening their charge or somehow wriggling out. We're not talking off the shelf stuff here but stuff that is so unique its like a fingerprint

    By the looks of it the evidence is strong, in the UK's favour. I have no doubts it would be established that a military grade chemical weapon was used.

    This prcocess isn't guaranteed to implicate the Russians though
    Momentum.

    Even with the current momentum a closer look at actions in Europe shows a number of countries didn't go along.

    Further more I doubt they can 100% prove it was the Russian state.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by snapper View Post
      And with great timing the Krauts sell everyone out for their own benefit by okaying North Stream 2; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKBN1H31IF
      Let's be careful though not to lose perspective, and keep in mind that Germany does have its own interests, which may not always coincide with those of other states. I also wish that Germany would not make itself too overly reliant on Russian gas and do more to take steps to hedge against potential Russian leverage in the energy arena, but it's their house, their rules.
      "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by citanon View Post
        Momentum.

        Even with the current momentum a closer look at actions in Europe shows a number of countries didn't go along.

        Further more I doubt they can 100% prove it was the Russian state.
        Which will weaken the stand to do anything about it

        Austria didn't go along, they want to be the bridge between the EU & Russia

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
          Let's be careful though not to lose perspective, and keep in mind that Germany does have its own interests, which may not always coincide with those of other states. I also wish that Germany would not make itself too overly reliant on Russian gas and do more to take steps to hedge against potential Russian leverage in the energy arena, but it's their house, their rules.
          Well that would be fine if they played by the same rules on all things...but they do not. On issues that betray their neighbours it is "their business" but on issues like accepting migrants from the middle east and sub Saharan Africa it is a "European issue". Rightly or wrongly many Slavic countries do not want tons of foreign migrants. If Germany wants to accept them fine. Poland has not problem with Germany accepting them but it does when Germany and France and others try to force their choice on countries that do not want large numbers of Muslims within their society. As a Pole who has property and investments in Poland I can understand why many Poles would not welcome such a thing even if it is not entirely my view. I can also thoroughly understand why it is perceived as an attempt at Germany forcing it's own choice on others and the perceived hypocrisy therefore when they urge regarding the migration issue - or the Polish legal reform issues (which I strongly object to personally) - that Poland must obey 'European rules' because we are all one now etc so you have to do your bit etc... Fine if I was running Poland I would accept some Muslims, take the sons, christianise them, shove them in the army and make Christian Janissary's of them. Charge them a tax for practicing their faith as they did with Christians. I think the new laws are beserk anyway. But Germany cannot argue that Poland should be doing x and y (however unwise the Government's plan may be) because of "European unity" and then act in a way that privileges a very few Germans at the financial and energy security cost of it's 'partners' and would be partners to the east.

          Yulia Skripal is apparently recovering and out of 'critical' unit.

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          • #80
            Lavrov living in film land now: "There are other explanations, experts tell us, and they say that it may well be beneficial to the British special services, who are known for their ability to act with license to kill. [The attack on the Skripals] could be beneficial to the British government, which has found itself in a difficult situation, unable to fulfil promises they made about Brexit."

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by snapper View Post
              Lavrov living in film land now: "There are other explanations, experts tell us, and they say that it may well be beneficial to the British special services, who are known for their ability to act with license to kill. [The attack on the Skripals] could be beneficial to the British government, which has found itself in a difficult situation, unable to fulfil promises they made about Brexit."
              No doubt May's got as much political and diplomatic mileage out of this that was to be had
              Last edited by Double Edge; 04 Apr 18,, 22:12.

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              • #82
                At an Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) meeting today a Muscovite motion for their participation in a joint inquiry was rejected: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43648343

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                • #83
                  ok, so this is the part i'm interested in. There is going to be an independent test after all.

                  The global watchdog is analysing samples from Salisbury in order to identify the nerve agent used. It was asked to do so by the UK, and Russia was not invited to participate.

                  The OPCW expects to receive the results of its independent laboratory tests within a week. Russia has signalled it will reject the results of the investigation if its experts are prohibited from taking part.

                  The watchdog does not have the power to attribute blame, but it could ask the Kremlin to grant its inspectors access to former Soviet Union production facilities to check all of their chemical weapons stockpiles have been destroyed.
                  Good article

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    How to Deal With Russian Information Warfare? Ask Sweden’s Subhunters

                    Other nations can learn from the Swedes’ long experience with mysterious incidents followed by disinformation campaigns.

                    A mysterious incident occurs. It can’t be conclusively attributed, but the targeted country pins the attack with near-certainty on another country — which unleashes a disinformation campaign, ridiculing the target and proposing a range of other explanations. The UK in 2018? Yes – and Sweden, for far longer. Over the past several decades of hunting submarines in its waters, Stockholm has dealt with similar combinations of mysterious-incident-plus-disinformation-campaign. Other Western nations would do well to learn from the Swedes’ experience.

                    On Oct. 16, 2014, news broke that Sweden’s signals intelligence agency, the National Defence Radio Establishment, had intercepted traffic on a Russian emergency channel. The following day, a resident of the Stockholm archipelago contacted the Swedish Armed Forces, saying he had seen what looked like a submarine. The armed forces immediately dispatched its sub-hunting flotilla and several other vessels. Later that evening, the signals intelligence agency intercepted encrypted Russian radio traffic, tracing its source to an area within the archipelago.

                    Three days later, the Swedes still hadn’t found the suspected submarine. The Russian defence ministry denied that any of its subs were in Swedish waters, suggesting instead via Russian news outlets that it must be a Dutch vessel. Other Russian news outlets submitted that the Swedish Navy had mistaken an animal for an underwater vessel. Then Russian media began referring to the suspected U-boat as Sweden’s “phantom submarine.” When the hunt was disbanded without a submarine having been found, the Russians seemed right.

                    “The Russian tactic is to put on a blank face and sow uncertainty among everyone who doesn’t have 100-percent-certain evidence,” explained retired Gen. Sverker Göranson. “And the Russians always try to make the other side look like idiots. As soon as the suggestion appeared that the detected sound might come from an animal, the Russians picked it up in order to ridicule us.”

                    As Sweden’s chief of defense until 2015, Göranson had ultimate responsibility for the 2014 submarine hunt, and as a result became a particular target of Russian mockery. “Russian media found a video snippet of me in yellow rain boots dancing to an ABBA song that they showed over and over,” he recalled. “Their message to the Swedish public was, ‘the person in charge in your country is a clown whom you can’t trust.’ They were ridiculing those in charge at all levels.”

                    This pattern of denial and ridicule is familiar to the Swedish armed forces, which have for decades hunted suspected submarines near the 2,700-kilometer coastline surrounding the mainland and the island of Gotland. Hunting submarines is like documenting nerve gas attacks, but much harder. Submarines, especially the mini-submarines often used by the Russian Navy, can easily hide and escape in shallow archipelagic waters.

                    On Oct. 27, 1981, there was no denying that a Soviet sub was in Swedish territory; it had run aground in a military zone in the archipelago off the southern city of Karlskrona. As a standoff ensued between Stockholm and Moscow about what to do about the sub and its crew, the event grew into international news. But even with such an embarrassment on their hands, the Soviets conducted a brilliant disinformation campaign. The sub’s captain said the crew had lost their bearings after all their navigational instruments failed– but when tested by the Swedes, the instruments worked fine. “Anyone a bit critical to the official Swedish story could find a story that fitted their convictions,” said Joakim von Braun, an independent Swedish defense analyst who specializes in Russian intelligence and naval operations. “The Soviets offered had a real smorgasbord of rumors and disinformation.” Soon Swedish public opinion was divided about whether the submarine had intentionally or unintentionally ventured into a Swedish military zone.

                    The following year, the Swedish Navy failed to catch a suspected Soviet submarine off the coast of Stockholm. “We found traces of tracks on the seabed, but the Soviets said they didn’t have any submarines that left such marks,” noted retired Commodore Nils-Ove Jansson, who commanded several submarine hunts in the 1980s and subsequently served as deputy director of the country’s military intelligence agency. “Then they said it must be a NATO submarine. Their alternative explanations created doubt among the Swedish public and led to a situation where many Swedes thought we were making up the submarine hunts in order to get more money.”

                    Such messages work on multiple levels. “At one level the Russians send the message saying, ‘Look at what we can do,’ but then they deny it,” said the Royal Navy’s Vice Adm. Sir Anthony Dymock, a former UK Permanent Military Representative to NATO.

                    To this day, the Swedish public remains divided as to whether the submarine intrusions actually took place. One active group of doubters, the Medborgargruppen, advances the idea that the intrusions exist only in Swedish officers’ imagination.

                    This all echoes what the UK has experienced since Sergey and Yulia Skripal were poisoned last month. Russian government representatives have suggested that the nerve gas came from Sweden, the Czech Republic, or even Britain’s own military lab. Though social media is new, information warfare most certainly is not. “What we’re seeing today, with trolling of decision-makers, is just a repetition of what we [the Swedish armed forces] were subjected to,” Jansson said.

                    Indeed, the Swedes’ long experience with Salisbury-like combinations of attacks and disinformation campaigns has given them expertise that other countries can learn from. “Don’t respond to disinformation,” Göranson advises. “There’s no point in entering a communications war with the Russians. However, use every opportunity to prove the opposite of what they’re alleging.” Over a long career as an anti-submarine warfare officer, Jansson has come to the same conclusion. “Lie low, don’t respond to provocations. And ask yourself who benefits from the disinformation they’re spreading.”

                    During the 2014 hunt, Göranson tested his response concept by showing pieces of evidence, including images, at press conferences. “It’s more effective than just talking, and it creates credibility,” he said. There is, however, the risk that an initial piece of evidence turns out to be incorrect – as happened during that hunt. Nevertheless, Göranson argues that countering disinformation not with counter-propaganda but with regular factual updates is crucial.

                    He also suggests that journalists may need training in how to read military information, and that targeted countries should nip information about plainly false events in the bud. Several years ago, Russian-leaning Twitter accounts began circulating news about a Russian naval exercise near Swedish waters. General-assignment reporters picked up the news; naval experts commented. In short order the exercise became big news. But the Swedish armed forces didn’t react to the provocative exercise. That’s because there was no exercise—but the Swedish military’s silence created space for non-experts to define the story. “We ended up yielding the space to self-appointed experts who were clearly mistaken,” Göranson said.

                    The UK won’t be the last Western country to join Sweden in the targeted-by-Russian-hybrid-warfare club, which underscores a final lesson learned by Göranson: always show a united front. During the 2014 hunt, he always gave joint statements with Prime Minister Stefan Löfven and Defense Minister Peter Hultqvist. One leader can be dismissed as a clown, but there’s force in unity. Link
                    ________________
                    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I think it is just another case of them causing the problem - while denying it is anything to do with them - then claiming to be help in the 'solution'. Any talks about Syria, Iran, Donbass, Nagorno Karabakh etc have to include Moscow to "help find a solution" when in fact in most cases they caused the problem in the first place. Even the OSCE deployed in Donbass has to have Muscovite 'observers' which is ludicrous as they are a belligerent in the conflict and started it.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Now the ludicrous:

                        Question: It is reported that Sergey Skripal, allegedly poisoned in Salisbury on 4 March, had pet animals at his home. Do you know anything of what has happened to them?

                        Answer: Indeed, we have learnt from Mr Skripal’s niece, Viktoria, that there were two cats and two guinea pigs living at Mr Skripal’s place. We don’t have any information on their whereabouts or condition, and the otherwise well informed British media are silent in that regard. Meanwhile, to learn the fate of the animals is important not only from the point of view of Mr Skripal’s property rights, but also as a matter of animal welfare and, most importantly, in the context of the ongoing investigation. To better understand what happened to Sergey and Yulia Skripal, it is essential to know if the animals also suffered from chemical poisoning. We have therefore officially requested the Foreign Office to provide us with the respective information, including on whether the animals are receiving any treatment.
                        https://www.rusemb.org.uk/fnapr/6455

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          'You'll be sorry,' Russia tells Britain at U.N. nerve agent attack meeting
                          By Michelle Nichols Reuters

                          UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Russia told Britain at the United Nations Security Council on Thursday that "you're playing with fire and you'll be sorry" over its accusations that Moscow was to blame for poisoning a former Russian spy and his daughter.

                          It was the second showdown between Russia and Britain at the world body since the March 4 nerve agent attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in an English town. Russia, which requested Thursday's council meeting, denies any involvement.

                          The attack has had major diplomatic ramifications, with mass expulsions of Russian and Western diplomats. The 15-member Security Council first met over the issue on March 14 at Britain's request.

                          "We have told our British colleagues that 'you're playing with fire and you'll be sorry'," Russian U.N. Ambassador Vassily Nebenzia said during a more than 30-minute speech that attempted to poke holes in Britain's allegations against Moscow.

                          He suggested that anyone who watched television crime shows like Britain's 'Midsomer Murders' would know "hundreds of clever ways to kill someone" to illustrate the "risky and dangerous" nature of the method Britain says was used to target Skripal.

                          British police believe a nerve agent was left on the front door of the Salisbury home where Skripal lived after he was freed in a spy swap. He was a military intelligence colonel who betrayed dozens of Russian agents to Britain's MI6 spy service.

                          "We believe that the UK's actions stand up to any scrutiny," British U.N. Ambassador Karen Pierce told the Security Council. "We have nothing to hide ... but I do fear that Russia might have something to fear."

                          At the global chemical weapons watchdog Wednesday, Russia called for a joint inquiry into the poisoning of the Skripals, but lost a vote on the measure.

                          "Allowing Russian scientists into an investigation where they are the most likely perpetrators of the crime in Salisbury would be like Scotland Yard inviting in Professor Moriarty," Pierce told reporters earlier on Thursday, citing a character from "Sherlock Holmes."

                          At the end of the council meeting, Nebenzia read a passage from the novel "Alice in Wonderland" about a trial where the Queen demands the sentence first and the verdict afterward. "Does that remind you of anything?" he added.

                          Pierce responded: "There is another very good quote from Alice in Wonderland which is: 'sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast' so I think that's the quote the suits my Russian colleague best." Link
                          __________

                          Moscow continues to make friends
                          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                            Moscow continues to make friends
                            Honestly, if things continue down this path Russia could find itself becoming the diplomatic equivalent of a fart at a cocktail party. All the guests know it's there, they just choose to politely ignore it.
                            Last edited by Monash; 08 Apr 18,, 00:02.
                            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I've said it before, Russia prefers vassals or enemies. Those are two relationships it seems to understand. It sucks at making & keeping friends.
                              sigpic

                              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                                I've said it before, Russia prefers vassals or enemies. Those are two relationships it seems to understand. It sucks at making & keeping friends.
                                Syria, India, Vietnam...

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