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Thread: US Steel & Aluminum Tariffs

  1. #376
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    hboGYT,

    The Trumpet may think he’s focused on damaging China’s economy, and benefiting America’s, but that’s just a result of his deep ignorance.

    = = = = =

    tbm3fan,

    Sorry if I gave the impression of putting words in your mouth; I was addressing the general protectionist arguments. “The underlying argument is …” wasn’t at all about what you said.

    Interesting point on e-bay; I hadn’t thought of that.

    = = = = =

    Oracle,

    Economic games the CCP plays: First, there isn’t a whole lot of politburo time spent on making sure the business environment for a bunch of foreign companies is as good as it can be. Seeing as how some 60% of exports are by foreign companies, any effort to ‘play economic games’ by sprucing up the business environment would have minimal benefits for China’s strategic interests.

    It always amuses me to hear people complain about China taking unfair advantage in the trade sphere, and then in the same breath complain about how badly foreign companies are treated in China. Simple truth: you can't have it both ways when the majority of your exporters are foreign companies, and always have been. If one were trying to take an unfair advantage, mandating an average 13% p.a. rise in minimum wages over the past 15 years would be highly counterproductive (and, wages went up faster – amid minimal or negative inflation – in the PRD exporting hub).

    China joined the world economy in 1978/79, and the WTO in 2001. That’s when they put down their marker and said, “We care about the rules.” In fact (and in great contrast to The Trumpet’s deep ignorance), China has used WTO dispute settlement procedures as much as anyone.

    Personal experience: China's trade negotiators cared so much about WTO implementation that they signed the Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) with Hong Kong in 2003. That document was mainly about training provincial and lower level officials on the importance of complying with an international treaty agreement. Part of the group I worked for carried out that training. These Chinese officials had never had to do that before, and by having a chance to ‘practice’ with Hong Kong, they could avoid accidentally embarrassing China in the WTO.

    “China as a P5 country” . . . do you mean the ROC, which was one of the victors of WWII? Different China. The one we have today wasn’t allowed into discussions establishing the Bretton Woods economic system. Or the UN. Or the ILO. Or the IMF. Or the World Bank. Or GATT and the WTO.

    Finally, don’t mistake my comments about China to mean that it is the holy cow or something. Totally misreading me.
    And, if you think I don’t address ‘queries that are critical of China,’ just be sure you don’t really mean ‘fail to agree with you.’
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  2. #377
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Interesting point on e-bay; I hadn’t thought of that.’
    Another problem with eBay goods, there's a lot of counterfeits on there. Huge problem when it comes to electronics. From USB cables that brick cell phones/computers, to counterfeit lithium-ion batteries that blow up e-cigarettes in peoples faces.

    Myself, I'm an e-cigarette user, and my "mod" takes 18650 lithium ion batteries. I have authentic Panasonic and LG batteries. If I were to buy them through eBay, there would be a very high likelihood they would be Chinese counterfeits, and counterfeit batteries pose an extreme risk as far as personal injury or starting a fire are concerned.

    I've also noticed counterfeit nVidia video cards on eBay being sold as brand new. They've even found ways to have the video card report false specifications to the computer it's installed in.

    For reasons such as this, I'm very wary of purchasing any electronics from eBay.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 14 Jul 18, at 13:32.
    What I don't want to see is the Bills winning a Super Bowl. As long as I'm alive that doesn't happen.

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Oracle,

    Economic games the CCP plays: First, there isn’t a whole lot of politburo time spent on making sure the business environment for a bunch of foreign companies is as good as it can be. Seeing as how some 60% of exports are by foreign companies, any effort to ‘play economic games’ by sprucing up the business environment would have minimal benefits for China’s strategic interests.

    It always amuses me to hear people complain about China taking unfair advantage in the trade sphere, and then in the same breath complain about how badly foreign companies are treated in China. Simple truth: you can't have it both ways when the majority of your exporters are foreign companies, and always have been. If one were trying to take an unfair advantage, mandating an average 13% p.a. rise in minimum wages over the past 15 years would be highly counterproductive (and, wages went up faster – amid minimal or negative inflation – in the PRD exporting hub).

    China joined the world economy in 1978/79, and the WTO in 2001. That’s when they put down their marker and said, “We care about the rules.” In fact (and in great contrast to The Trumpet’s deep ignorance), China has used WTO dispute settlement procedures as much as anyone.


    Personal experience: China's trade negotiators cared so much about WTO implementation that they signed the Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) with Hong Kong in 2003. That document was mainly about training provincial and lower level officials on the importance of complying with an international treaty agreement. Part of the group I worked for carried out that training. These Chinese officials had never had to do that before, and by having a chance to ‘practice’ with Hong Kong, they could avoid accidentally embarrassing China in the WTO.
    DOR,

    Is China making life difficult for foreign companies?

    How China gets what it wants from American companies

    A harder road ahead


    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    “China as a P5 country” . . . do you mean the ROC, which was one of the victors of WWII? Different China. The one we have today wasn’t allowed into discussions establishing the Bretton Woods economic system. Or the UN. Or the ILO. Or the IMF. Or the World Bank. Or GATT and the WTO.
    Unnecessarily going off on a tangent again. Answer the points raised instead of deflecting the arguments. Read my post again, comprehend it, and try to reply again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Finally, don’t mistake my comments about China to mean that it is the holy cow or something. Totally misreading me.
    There is no misreading you. Your posts are open in this board for people to read and make inferences.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    And, if you think I don’t address ‘queries that are critical of China,’ just be sure you don’t really mean ‘fail to agree with you.’
    Really? Fail to agree? This is what an economist came up with?
    China acts as a highway robber.....fail to agree?
    China steals copyright and IP laws.....fail to agree?
    China acts as a bully.....fail to agree?

    Dude, leave it. You are probably better with economic data, so keep playing with those. Even if you actually give a try addressing the points I raised, you cannot make me see reason of China's unfair trade practices because there is none..zero..zilch, and this is just a couple of drops in the ocean of their other crimes.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - AR

    Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it!

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Another problem with eBay goods, there's a lot of counterfeits on there. Huge problem when it comes to electronics. From USB cables that brick cell phones/computers, to counterfeit lithium-ion batteries that blow up e-cigarettes in peoples faces.

    Myself, I'm an e-cigarette user, and my "mod" takes 18650 lithium ion batteries. I have authentic Panasonic and LG batteries. If I were to buy them through eBay, there would be a very high likelihood they would be Chinese counterfeits, and counterfeit batteries pose an extreme risk as far as personal injury or starting a fire are concerned.

    I've also noticed counterfeit nVidia video cards on eBay being sold as brand new. They've even found ways to have the video card report false specifications to the computer it's installed in.

    For reasons such as this, I'm very wary of purchasing any electronics from eBay.
    Any idea who sells these fake goods? Or the country of origin?
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - AR

    Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it!

  5. #380
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Any idea who sells these fake goods? Or the country of origin?
    For electronics goods, China, primarily. I'm sure there's thousands or tens of thousands of individuals all doing it. There's also Americans who either wittingly or unwittingly import counterfeit electronic goods and re-sell them. Even brick and mortar stores are getting duped, as well as the Department of Defense.

    Counterfeit electronics are also a plague on Amazon as well.
    What I don't want to see is the Bills winning a Super Bowl. As long as I'm alive that doesn't happen.

  6. #381
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    DOR,

    Is China making life difficult for foreign companies?

    How China gets what it wants from American companies

    A harder road ahead




    Unnecessarily going off on a tangent again. Answer the points raised instead of deflecting the arguments. Read my post again, comprehend it, and try to reply again.



    There is no misreading you. Your posts are open in this board for people to read and make inferences.



    Really? Fail to agree? This is what an economist came up with?
    China acts as a highway robber.....fail to agree?
    China steals copyright and IP laws.....fail to agree?
    China acts as a bully.....fail to agree?

    Dude, leave it. You are probably better with economic data, so keep playing with those. Even if you actually give a try addressing the points I raised, you cannot make me see reason of China's unfair trade practices because there is none..zero..zilch, and this is just a couple of drops in the ocean of their other crimes.
    OK, yet another point-by-point rebuttal.


    Is China making life difficult for foreign companies?

    China is ‘challenging,’ ‘hesitant,’ and ‘doubtful.’
    [Oh, dear.]

    “Concerns over the business climate are mounting, and range from rising protectionism and slow progress in market access to forced technology transfers and tightening internet censorship.”

    “He said German companies would stay in China because of the importance of the Chinese market, but the embassy had received an increasing number of complaints about exporting agricultural products to China and licensing of pharmaceutical products. He said it was taking much longer to get a licence for new pharmaceuticals. Doing so used to take two years, he said, but now could take longer and pharmaceutical companies suspected protectionism was behind the delays.”
    [Or, it could be that Xi Jinping cracked down on corruption, and the pharma business is among the dirtiest in the world.]

    “The latest white paper issued by the US business lobby group expressed disappointment about the slow pace of reforms, saying the reforms focused more on cutting red tape rather than on opening the market in an “identifiable and immediately utilisable” way.”
    [So sad. All that red tape gets slaughtered.]

    “Clauss said new hurdles, such as the security and cyber laws, had emerged.”
    [I guess this guy never did business in Europe . . .]

    “A lawyer with a Chinese financial conglomerate said Beijing was cleaning up various measures that favoured foreign investment and working on unified procedures for domestic and foreign business.”
    [That’s what’s called running a bulldozer over the pro-FDI playing field, and evening it out. Ever look at the differences in tax rates for local vs. foreign investments? Ever wonder why anyone would 'round trip' capital through Hong Kong and back into China? To take advantage of the benefits available to FDI, but not to the locals.]

    - - - - -

    How China gets what it wants from American companies.

    Opening sentence: “Some major US companies including GM and Qualcomm sell more of their products in China than anywhere else in the world.”

    [That sort of proves my entire point.]

    “International companies have long complained that China has strong-armed them into handing over trade secrets in exchange for market access. In some sectors, Beijing will only let foreign firms operate through joint ventures in which Chinese partners have the majority stake.”
    [This is nothing new. I wrote a book about JVs in Korea back in the 1980s. I guess these guys didn’t read it. Japan did it, too.]

    - - - - -

    A harder road ahead

    Opening sentences: “For two decades China was a land of seemingly limitless opportunity for multinationals. Japan and South Korea had shut out foreign firms during the early phase of their economic development. By contrast, China’s leaders, after Deng Xiaoping’s reforms in the early 1990s, made them welcome.”

    Point: [Wal-Mart will add 100 stores to the 400 it has, even though sales are falling. If they were importing and selling TVs on that basis, it would be called dumping. Here, it’s just normal business practice: drive out the competitors. Who could object to that ?
    Beijing.]

    Point: [Yum Brands / KFC / Pizza Hut … many long years of huge success. Knocked McDonald’s off the top spot in the world’s most important new market. But, sales are slowing. Must be protectionism.]

    “For all that they have some legitimate gripes, not all of the multinationals’ problems can be blamed on an obstructive government. In Yum’s case, food-safety scares in 2012 and 2014 left consumers with the impression that it was not keeping a close enough eye on its suppliers. In the 2014 case, for example, investigative reporters found that one supplier had sent out-of-date meat to KFC outlets in China. Yum, like foreign restaurant groups, had hitherto benefited from Chinese consumers’ assumption that its quality controls were higher than those of local rivals, an advantage it seems to have squandered.”
    [Oops. Took your eye off the ball and got caught. Must be protectionism.]


    And, the main reason why I have made the points I have made, over and over:

    “Frustrating though this is for foreign consumer-goods firms, they cannot claim that it is because the game is rigged. For one thing, there is little state involvement in their industry: the competition comes from private-sector Chinese firms.”

    Not.
    State.
    Policy.

    - - - - -

    P5 country: Not my point; go back and look at the source.
    I didn’t bring it up.
    But, it is exactly on target: THIS China wasn’t party to making the international rules.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So Harley Davidson creating jobs in Europe (which I believe they do not intend to do but switch production to Asia which is not subject to EU counter tariffs) is good for where the production goes - more tax income.
    Gets a bit more political...

    Berlin agency encourages Harley Davidson motorbikes to bring operations to Germany

    "Berlin is the city of freedom," a business agency in the German capital has contacted Harley-Davidson's CEO. The iconic US company is looking to move some production abroad to avoid the fallout of an EU-US trade spat.


    A German business agency has called on Harley-Davidson to start up operations in Berlin after the iconic US motorbike maker said it would move some of its production abroad in response to a trade dispute between the United States and the European Union.

    The head of the Berlin Partner agency, Stefan Franzke, told German daily Tagesspiegel that he made the suggestion in a letter to Harley-Davison's Chief Executive Matthew Levatich.

    Frankze advertised Berlin's "dynamism" in the "heart of Europe" and told Levatich that the city already hosted a BMW motorbike factory.

    'You are looking for freedom?'

    "But most of all, Berlin is the city of freedom," Franzke wrote in the letter he wrote on US Independence Day headed: "You are looking for freedom? Freedom Machine Berlin is our answer."

    Harley-Davison announced in late June that it was planning to move some of its motorbike production abroad to circumvent EU tariffs on US motorbikes. The bloc enacted the duties in retaliation to US President Donald Trump's decision to slap tariffs on EU steel and aluminum.

    Trump: 'Beginning of the end'

    Trump slammed the company in response, writing on Twitter that it risked "the beginning of the end" if it went ahead with the plans.

    A Berlin Partner spokesman told DPA news agency that Harley-Davison had not yet replied to Franzke's letter.

    Franzke said he had not advertised Berlin to other US companies targeted by EU retaliatory tariffs, but would do so if they voiced interest in moving their production abroad.

    amp/jm (AFP, dpa)
    https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-agency-...any/a-44670135

  8. #383
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    From the Economic Times of India:

    US to hand over 'problem-list' in the hope to avoid trade war with India

    NEW DELHI: The Trump administration will share a list of its trade issues with India next week, as the two sides seek to iron out their differences over bilateral trade that have arisen from tit-for-tat tariff actions in the last few months. This was agreed at a new round of talks between the two countries in Washington, an official said. ďAll issues were discussed.

    They were talking of general things, we wanted specific. They will send us a text of what they want, in the next week or ten days,Ē the official told ET.

    While preferential benefits to Indian exports under US Generalised System of Preferences (GSP) and Americaís higher tariffs on steel and aluminium were discussed at the talks, the US officials were also curious about the concessions that China has offered India under the Asia Pacific Trade Agreement.

    Last month, China had said it would reduce or cancel tariffs on imports of 8,549 types of goods from India, South Korea, Bangladesh, Laos and Sri Lanka. The goods include chemicals, agricultural and medical products, soybean, clothing, and steel and aluminium products.

    India and US will now take the discussions forward through emails and video conferencing with low likelihood of officials traveling to each otherís countries, the official said.

    This was the first round of talks after senior officials from the US Trade Representative met Indian officials in Delhi for three days late last month.

    The two countries are keen to resolve the issues before Indian retaliatory tariffs worth $235 million on 29 American products, in response to the USí decision to raise import duties on Indian steel and aluminium, come into effect on August 4.

    India has also demanded market access in agriculture, automobiles, auto components and engineering goods, and pressed for resumption of duty cuts for $5.6-billion worth of goods under the US GSP.

    India's exports to the US in 2017-18 were $47.9 billion, while imports stood at $26.7 billion. The two countries havenít fixed a target to reduce the trade deficit under the two track approach to decide their trade issues. The first is to resolve immediate concerns in the shortto-medium term and the other pertains to expanding bilateral trade in the long run.

    Washington has challenged Indiaís export subsidies and tariffs and is opposed to a Reserve Bank ruling on data localisation to ensure firms operating in India to move their servers to India. The two sides also discussed the issue of oil, but not in the context of Iran, the official said.

    Earlier this week, a delegation from the US met external affairs ministry officials here to discuss US demands for India to zero out its oil imports from Iran.
    Full article: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/65060682.cms
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