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Thread: US Steel & Aluminum Tariffs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    DOR,

    What is wrong with increasing tax on imports from a certain country (China), which has been found to coerce foreign MNCs to share their IP rights, and doesn't let other companies to operate in their country (Alphabet, Google etc) to the extent their companies operate in other countries?
    Because they tend to draw retaliatory actions on your goods when exported to the countries on whose products you have levied a tax.

    See Smoot-Hawley

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%...ley_Tariff_Act
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Because they tend to draw retaliatory actions on your goods when exported to the countries on whose products you have levied a tax.

    See Smoot-Hawley

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%...ley_Tariff_Act
    US economy is doing well, it's the Chinese who have to keep the fires in their factories burning. I don't agree with President Trumps methods, but if war is not the solution how does America make China pay, or any other country including India, Canada and others pay? That is, open up their economy more for a better 2 way trade.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - AR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    US economy is doing well, it's the Chinese who have to keep the fires in their factories burning. I don't agree with President Trumps methods, but if war is not the solution how does America make China pay, or any other country including India, Canada and others pay? That is, open up their economy more for a better 2 way trade.
    With Canada-US it is Canada which is running at an overall trade deficit.

    From the President's own US Trade Rep...look at Services, not just manufactured goods and transport.

    And if you look we also had a trade agreement with Canada....and Mexico. It was called NAFTA.

    https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/canada

    As for India and others...that is why you try to work out trade agreements. To do that you also have to have a strong State Department. Hard to do when you have so many open ambassadorships and underfunded staffs.

    https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/282139.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    tbm3fan,

    Can you give me some idea why any US administration would want to launch a war on American consumers? Carpet bombing less well-off families’ standards of living isn’t going to return a single manufacturing job to the USA.
    As I said I agree with the premise regarding trade vis a vis China. There should be a completely level playing field. That means US companies should have the same access to the Chinese economy that Chinese companies do in the US. No if, ands, or buts. China is no longer a developing economy needing protection from US businesses. Never said tariffs were the right way to go about it. Did say the right way was in conjunction with all other major countries that trade with China and must endure the same issues.

    As for war on consumers I will say this. I make it a strong point to buy very little that says Made in China. When I need clothes I source them from businesses under Made in America. Auto parts (I am a big buyer) made in US, then Mexico, Canada and last Japan. Chinese parts are returned. Other items I buy off of Ebay from US sellers. I find older Made in America appliances last longer than a brand new Made in China seemingly identical appliance. I make very few major purchases ever since I don't need the latest and greatest. Computers are off Ebay. Majors like T.V., washer, dryer and refrigerator are 8-15 years old and working fine. When I ask myself "do I really need it" the answer is almost always No. It really isn't that hard to make some simple sacrifices at all since I am looking long term into 2030-2035.

    Of course, all this is moot in the end. Trump isn't interested in what he is talking about when you get down to it. His only game, and it is his end game, and that is simple destruction of the world order, world institutions, and even national institutions. What happens after that he could care less. It is what the Tea Party has always wanted. We don't trust government, we don't trust institutions so let's bring them all down. Make it every man for himself and every country for themselves much like the early part of the 20th Century just before we ended up in World Wars because of that mentality.
    Last edited by tbm3fan; 12 Jul 18, at 22:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    As I said I agree with the premise regarding trade vis a vis China. There should be a completely level playing field. That means US companies should have the same access to the Chinese economy that Chinese companies do in the US. No if, ands, or buts. China is no longer a developing economy needing protection from US businesses. Never said tariffs were the right way to go about it. Did say the right way was in conjunction with all other major countries that trade with China and must endure the same issues.

    As for war on consumers I will say this. I make it a strong point to buy very little that says Made in China. When I need clothes I source them from businesses under Made in America. Auto parts (I am a big buyer) made in US, then Mexico, Canada and last Japan. Chinese parts are returned. Other items I buy off of Ebay from US sellers. I find older Made in America appliances last longer than a brand new Made in China seemingly identical appliance. I make very few major purchases ever since I don't need the latest and greatest. Computers are off Ebay. Majors like T.V., washer, dryer and refrigerator are 8-15 years old and working fine. When I ask myself "do I really need it" the answer is almost always No. It really isn't that hard to make some simple sacrifices at all since I am looking long term into 2030-2035.

    Of course, all this is moot in the end. Trump isn't interested in what he is talking about when you get down to it. His only game, and it is his end game, and that is simple destruction of the world order, world institutions, and even national institutions. What happens after that he could care less. It is what the Tea Party has always wanted. We don't trust government, we don't trust institutions so let's bring them all down. Make it every man for himself and every country for themselves much like the early part of the 20th Century just before we ended up in World Wars because of that mentality.
    Haha no. China is still decidedly a middle income economy. The earlier China opens up, the more likely it is to get stuck there.

  6. #366
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    US economy is doing well, it's the Chinese who have to keep the fires in their factories burning. I don't agree with President Trumps methods, but if war is not the solution how does America make China pay, or any other country including India, Canada and others pay? That is, open up their economy more for a better 2 way trade.
    Oracle,
    You're a couple of decades out of date on the Chinese economy.
    In the 2000s, consumption and services took over.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  7. #367
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    As I said I agree with the premise regarding trade vis a vis China. There should be a completely level playing field. That means US companies should have the same access to the Chinese economy that Chinese companies do in the US. No if, ands, or buts. China is no longer a developing economy needing protection from US businesses. Never said tariffs were the right way to go about it. Did say the right way was in conjunction with all other major countries that trade with China and must endure the same issues.

    As for war on consumers I will say this. I make it a strong point to buy very little that says Made in China. When I need clothes I source them from businesses under Made in America. Auto parts (I am a big buyer) made in US, then Mexico, Canada and last Japan. Chinese parts are returned. Other items I buy off of Ebay from US sellers. I find older Made in America appliances last longer than a brand new Made in China seemingly identical appliance. I make very few major purchases ever since I don't need the latest and greatest. Computers are off Ebay. Majors like T.V., washer, dryer and refrigerator are 8-15 years old and working fine. When I ask myself "do I really need it" the answer is almost always No. It really isn't that hard to make some simple sacrifices at all since I am looking long term into 2030-2035.

    Of course, all this is moot in the end. Trump isn't interested in what he is talking about when you get down to it. His only game, and it is his end game, and that is simple destruction of the world order, world institutions, and even national institutions. What happens after that he could care less. It is what the Tea Party has always wanted. We don't trust government, we don't trust institutions so let's bring them all down. Make it every man for himself and every country for themselves much like the early part of the 20th Century just before we ended up in World Wars because of that mentality.


    tbm3fan,


    So, what you’re saying is that China isn’t an attractive enough place for US capital, and that’s a bad thing.

    And, because US companies aren’t investing as much as they might want to in China, US consumers should be made to suffer.

    But, if China were a more attractive place to invest, what would happen to US companies’ investment in the US?

    This is why trade wars are so incredibly stupid.
    The underlying argument is, “You’re not as good a place to do business as I am, so I’m going to shoot myself in the foot. That’ll bring me down to your level. Nyah nyah nyah!”


    PS Glad to see you're so well-off that you can afford to reject value-for-money. Most people aren't so lucky, and so they will be the victims of this war.
    But, I don't see any link between Made in America and E-Bay.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  8. #368
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    the real issue with china is not the trade deficit, but the wholesale technology theft.

    regarding the people that china is currently targeting in her tit-for-tat: i for one have little sympathy-- they're getting what they voted for.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Oracle,
    You're a couple of decades out of date on the Chinese economy.
    In the 2000s, consumption and services took over.
    So Chinese have stopped exporting manufactured items since 2000s? Why are the commies crying about it than? All those factory workers have become dollar millionaires? And those who could not become $ millionaires have become coders and are drawing a $100K salary over there?

    The issue here is not Trump or the USA, but Chinas' highway robber like attitude for decades, infringing on everything from copyright to IP laws, currency manipulation, buying patents to get access to technology and where they don't get to buy - steal that technology enlisting hackers, creating hurdles for foreign companies to operate in China. China is the worlds nastiest bully when it comes to trade, and I hope this time it learns some hard lessons. Trump the evil is a bonus.

    *Seems I'm not so out of date with Chinese policies afterall.*

    In this tit-for-tat policy w.r.t trade, all countries would get hurt, but I'd be happy if China can be forced to change its stance on most issues. It doesn't matter under whose Presidency this trade war is happening, it was long overdue. Obama would have had my remote support too. For far too long, developing countries have taken the developed world for a ride, this needs to stop. Open up respective economies or be left behind.
    Last edited by Oracle; 13 Jul 18, at 13:29.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - AR

    Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    So Chinese have stopped exporting manufactured items since 2000s? Why are the commies crying about it than? All those factory workers have become dollar millionaires? And those who could not become $ millionaires have become coders and are drawing a $100K salary over there?

    The issue here is not Trump or the USA, but Chinas' highway robber like attitude for decades, infringing on everything from copyright to IP laws, currency manipulation, buying patents to get access to technology and where they don't get to buy - steal that technology enlisting hackers, creating hurdles for foreign companies to operate in China. China is the worlds nastiest bully when it comes to trade, and I hope this time it learns some hard lessons. Trump the evil is a bonus.

    *Seems I'm not so out of date with Chinese policies afterall.*

    In this tit-for-tat policy w.r.t trade, all countries would get hurt, but I'd be happy if China can be forced to change its stance on most issues. It doesn't matter under whose Presidency this trade war is happening, it was long overdue. Obama would have had my remote support too. For far too long, developing countries have taken the developed world for a ride, this needs to stop. Open up respective economies or be left behind.

    Did you see some place where I -- or anyone -- said "China stopped exporting manufactured items since 2000s"?
    Come on, at least meet me half way. At a minimum, recognize that there are parts of an economy and there are drivers of an economy.
    Parts of an economy include forestry and postal delivery.
    Drivers are the bits that contribute more to overall economic growth than other parts. Drivers, because they have to be very large, are mostly limited to exports (in small economies), investment, consumption and on the supply side, services.

    And, one doesn't have to lose an arm and a leg to complain about losing a finger. They're complaining about it because the rules based global trading system that the US created and China signed up for is being ignored.


    The issue here is very much Trump's ignorance about government, international relations and the global economy. Take those away, and there is nothing there.

    Did we dismantle the global trade institutions and threaten to walk away from NATO when the US was running large current-account deficits?
    Hell no!
    Why not?
    Very simple: the adults were in charge. Reagan managed a better-than-3% of GDP deficit, and George W Bush nearly doubled it (GOPers are really good at that).
    We’re now at less than 2.5% so what’s the justification for this train wreck?

    Did we dismantle the global trade institutions and threaten to walk away from defense commitments when Japan, Korea and Taiwan were ripping off US technology?
    Hell no!
    Why not?
    Very simple: the adults were in charge.

    The Trumpet’s ego and ignorance is why we're having this discussion, nothing more and nothing less.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Did you see some place where I -- or anyone -- said "China stopped exporting manufactured items since 2000s"?
    Come on, at least meet me half way. At a minimum, recognize that there are parts of an economy and there are drivers of an economy.
    Parts of an economy include forestry and postal delivery.
    Drivers are the bits that contribute more to overall economic growth than other parts. Drivers, because they have to be very large, are mostly limited to exports (in small economies), investment, consumption and on the supply side, services.

    And, one doesn't have to lose an arm and a leg to complain about losing a finger. They're complaining about it because the rules based global trading system that the US created and China signed up for is being ignored.


    The issue here is very much Trump's ignorance about government, international relations and the global economy. Take those away, and there is nothing there.

    Did we dismantle the global trade institutions and threaten to walk away from NATO when the US was running large current-account deficits?
    Hell no!
    Why not?
    Very simple: the adults were in charge. Reagan managed a better-than-3% of GDP deficit, and George W Bush nearly doubled it (GOPers are really good at that).
    We’re now at less than 2.5% so what’s the justification for this train wreck?

    Did we dismantle the global trade institutions and threaten to walk away from defense commitments when Japan, Korea and Taiwan were ripping off US technology?
    Hell no!
    Why not?
    Very simple: the adults were in charge.

    The Trumpet’s ego and ignorance is why we're having this discussion, nothing more and nothing less.
    I'm not sure if you say it in the context of what I'm about to say. I think Trump is more focused on doing damage to China than he is on benefiting America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post


    tbm3fan,


    So, what you’re saying is that China isn’t an attractive enough place for US capital, and that’s a bad thing.

    And, because US companies aren’t investing as much as they might want to in China, US consumers should be made to suffer.

    But, if China were a more attractive place to invest, what would happen to US companies’ investment in the US?
    I said no such thing

    This is why trade wars are so incredibly stupid.
    The underlying argument is, “You’re not as good a place to do business as I am, so I’m going to shoot myself in the foot. That’ll bring me down to your level. Nyah nyah nyah!”
    I never said all for a trade war


    PS Glad to see you're so well-off that you can afford to reject value-for-money. Most people aren't so lucky, and so they will be the victims of this war.
    But, I don't see any link between Made in America and E-Bay.
    Not that well off at all. I just practice sacrifice in buying only what I truly need. Americans buy too much crap to begin with and I was once guilty but no more.

    You don't see a link between Made in America and Ebay. Say I want a Sunbeam toaster. I can go new and have it built in China or I can go Made in America used and buy it from someone in say Indiana. I have now avoided buying a Made in China item and actually bought something that put money directly into the pocket of another trying to get by American rather than overseas. As for the company selling the new product I am not to interested in putting money into the CEO's pocket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Did you see some place where I -- or anyone -- said "China stopped exporting manufactured items since 2000s"?
    Come on, at least meet me half way. At a minimum, recognize that there are parts of an economy and there are drivers of an economy.
    Parts of an economy include forestry and postal delivery.
    Drivers are the bits that contribute more to overall economic growth than other parts. Drivers, because they have to be very large, are mostly limited to exports (in small economies), investment, consumption and on the supply side, services.
    You defected from the points I raised and instead of addressing them, you went on a tangent commenting that I am out of date on the Chinese economy and that from the 2000s, consumption and services took over.

    Fine, I am out of date pertaining to the Chinese economy and I also admit you know a lot more than me (you being an economist), but, I am not out of date about the economic games the CCP plays, the strategic politics that the Chinese are playing, or their intentions in the near future. I am not blind. You can go on and on about President Trump and his policies and I don't give a damn, the Americans will deal with him in the next election. If you can, answer the points I have raised and I will meet you half way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    And, one doesn't have to lose an arm and a leg to complain about losing a finger. They're complaining about it because the rules based global trading system that the US created and China signed up for is being ignored.
    When did China care about any rule at all? Please refresh my memory.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    The issue here is very much Trump's ignorance about government, international relations and the global economy. Take those away, and there is nothing there.
    Maybe. One can't say that for sure, not even by Nobel Prize winning economists. And why should President Trump, or for that matter any President of the US maintain everything? He has a right to think about America first. Maybe his actions are wrong, time will tell. And why only US (?), China is sitting on trillions of dollars of reserves, but it gambles on a terrorist country, threatens others by bullying tactics, and declines accepted international norms for enlisting a terrorist in the UN. If China is the holy cow, why didn't they accept UNCLOS verdict about the islands created in the SCS?

    China, as a P5 country is smashing accepted international norms and you seem to be fine with that. I don't think I have to remind you that there is still order in this world precisely because of the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Did we dismantle the global trade institutions and threaten to walk away from NATO when the US was running large current-account deficits?
    Hell no!
    Why not?
    Very simple: the adults were in charge. Reagan managed a better-than-3% of GDP deficit, and George W Bush nearly doubled it (GOPers are really good at that).
    We’re now at less than 2.5% so what’s the justification for this train wreck?

    Did we dismantle the global trade institutions and threaten to walk away from defense commitments when Japan, Korea and Taiwan were ripping off US technology?
    Hell no!
    Why not?
    Very simple: the adults were in charge.
    Wrong. The kids never came out of their barracks.
    Did Japan, Korea or Taiwan start challenging the US, frothing from the mouth, almost on a weekly basis?
    Did any of those countries become a bully big enough for the Pentagon to sit up and start noticing?

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    The Trumpet’s ego and ignorance is why we're having this discussion, nothing more and nothing less.
    No. We're having this discussion because you don't address queries that are critical of China and instead deflect every time a direct question is asked. That's your right, and I am fine with that. And President Trump might have a big ego, but guess what, I am not losing sleep over it. Many countries will get burnt, my country too in this ongoing trade war, and I am fine with that too as long as the bully is caged. Ready to lose an arm and a leg if my complaining about losing a finger, makes the bully lose its head.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - AR

    Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    the real issue with china is not the trade deficit, but the wholesale technology theft.

    regarding the people that china is currently targeting in her tit-for-tat: i for one have little sympathy-- they're getting what they voted for.
    So true so I can't feel too much sympathy for them also

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Did you see some place where I -- or anyone -- said "China stopped exporting manufactured items since 2000s"?
    Come on, at least meet me half way. At a minimum, recognize that there are parts of an economy and there are drivers of an economy.
    Parts of an economy include forestry and postal delivery.
    Drivers are the bits that contribute more to overall economic growth than other parts. Drivers, because they have to be very large, are mostly limited to exports (in small economies), investment, consumption and on the supply side, services.

    And, one doesn't have to lose an arm and a leg to complain about losing a finger. They're complaining about it because the rules based global trading system that the US created and China signed up for is being ignored.


    The issue here is very much Trump's ignorance about government, international relations and the global economy. Take those away, and there is nothing there.

    Did we dismantle the global trade institutions and threaten to walk away from NATO when the US was running large current-account deficits?
    Hell no!
    Why not?
    Very simple: the adults were in charge. Reagan managed a better-than-3% of GDP deficit, and George W Bush nearly doubled it (GOPers are really good at that).
    We’re now at less than 2.5% so what’s the justification for this train wreck?

    Did we dismantle the global trade institutions and threaten to walk away from defense commitments when Japan, Korea and Taiwan were ripping off US technology?
    Hell no!
    Why not?
    Very simple: the adults were in charge.

    The Trumpet’s ego and ignorance is why we're having this discussion, nothing more and nothing less.
    but where is the answer to this? Neither of us are talking about trade deficits.

    The issue here is not Trump or the USA, but Chinas' highway robber like attitude for decades, infringing on everything from copyright to IP laws, currency manipulation, buying patents to get access to technology and where they don't get to buy - steal that technology enlisting hackers, creating hurdles for foreign companies to operate in China. China is the worlds nastiest bully when it comes to trade, and I hope this time it learns some hard lessons.

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