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Thread: US Steel & Aluminum Tariffs

  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I believe Europeans are smart enough to realize that the Chinese are exploiters. They look for a weak spot and then try to leverage it to their sole advantage. Just look at what they have done in Sri Lanka.
    On the other hand, if the Chinese don't "exploit", Trump will be cornered.

  2. #347
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - AR

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  3. #348
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    "bunch of hoodlums"... yep sadly about right.

    Meanwhile Muscovy imposes tariffs; https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8434746.html

    Bet's on Trumpkin doing reciprocal or calling off his "summit"? Zero odds I am giving. Putin is richer and has been laundering his money in his pals names via Trumpkins for years. "Putin is KGB... he's fine". Really? When he is raising tariffs on the US?
    Last edited by snapper; 07 Jul 18, at 10:50.

  4. #349
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Full article: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44742714
    China and Russia hit back at Trump tariffs

    China has hit back after US tariffs on Chinese goods came into effect and President Donald Trump threatened to impose more.

    China's commerce ministry said it had lodged a new complaint with the World Trade Organization (WTO).

    Meanwhile, Russia has announced extra duties on US imports in retaliation for earlier US steel tariffs.

    Beijing has accused the US of starting the "largest trade war in economic history".

    What tariffs are now in effect?

    US tariffs on $34bn (£25.7bn) of Chinese goods came into effect on Friday.

    China retaliated by imposing a similar 25% tariff on 545 US products - including cars, soya beans and lobsters - also worth a total of $34bn.

    Russia is introducing extra duties on a range of products imported from the US that can be replaced by locally made equivalents.

    They include road-building equipment, products for the oil and gas industry, and tools used in mining.

    Mr Trump has already imposed tariffs on imported washing machines and solar panels, and started charging levies on the imports of steel and aluminium from the European Union, Mexico and Canada.

    The US tariffs imposed so far would affect the equivalent of 0.6% of global trade and account for 0.1% of global GDP, according to Morgan Stanley.
    What is President Trump threatening?

    The US president said America might target Chinese goods worth $500bn - the total value of Chinese imports in 2017.

    The White House had previously said it would consult on tariffs on another $16bn of products, which Mr Trump has suggested could come into effect later this month.

    Mr Trump said: "You have another 16 [billion dollars] in two weeks, and then, as you know, we have $200bn in abeyance and then after the $200bn, we have $300bn in abeyance. OK? So we have 50 plus 200 plus almost 300."
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  5. #350
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Why oh why do GOPers insist on starting unnecessary wars? Make no mistake about it, folks, this one is purely optional.
    It’s this decade’s equivalent of the Bush-Cheney fiasco that brought you ISIS.

    And, let’s not forget that the sons and daughters of the elite won’t be fighting this war, either. Nope, this one will be fought out in the aisles of Wal-Mart and Target. The causalities, as usual, will be the poor. Saks’s Fifth Avenue and Bloomingdale’s shoppers have nothing to fear.
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  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Why oh why do GOPers insist on starting unnecessary wars? Make no mistake about it, folks, this one is purely optional.
    It’s this decade’s equivalent of the Bush-Cheney fiasco that brought you ISIS.

    And, let’s not forget that the sons and daughters of the elite won’t be fighting this war, either. Nope, this one will be fought out in the aisles of Wal-Mart and Target. The causalities, as usual, will be the poor. Saks’s Fifth Avenue and Bloomingdale’s shoppers have nothing to fear.
    I have no issue with the war itself but only with how it is waged. It would have been far better to wage the war in a united front that combined the U.S. with the EU, Canada, Australia and anyone else wary of China.

    China is no saint and they are definitely not going to change their ways willing. If such a war is needed for foreign companies to obtain free and equal access to Chinese markets, as the Chinese have in ours, then so be it. If the Chinese intend to continue to appropriate technology by hook or crook then a war might be needed.

    The Chinese economic system is clearly a reflection of their government in that it is an authoritative system vs. our free market system. This great boom in their economic success will fuel their entry into AI. Do we really want them to be tops in AI when it is increasingly obvious they will use AI to control their 1.4 billion people.

    The Chinese early on made a bargain with the government in that they could pursue wealth but nothing else. With a slowing economy the equation could alter and therefore demand more control than less. I see Xi making himself President for Life pretty much as not too different from Mao. He exhibits some of that cult of personality and seems to want the Communist Party to intrude into every aspect of daily life. His economy will help him fuel those goals for research and development into all things surveillance.

    I don't know if that can be stopped but there is no reason why the rest of the world should roll over and let China have it's way so easily.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I have no issue with the war itself but only with how it is waged. It would have been far better to wage the war in a united front that combined the U.S. with the EU, Canada, Australia and anyone else wary of China.

    China is no saint and they are definitely not going to change their ways willing. If such a war is needed for foreign companies to obtain free and equal access to Chinese markets, as the Chinese have in ours, then so be it. If the Chinese intend to continue to appropriate technology by hook or crook then a war might be needed.

    The Chinese economic system is clearly a reflection of their government in that it is an authoritative system vs. our free market system. This great boom in their economic success will fuel their entry into AI. Do we really want them to be tops in AI when it is increasingly obvious they will use AI to control their 1.4 billion people.

    The Chinese early on made a bargain with the government in that they could pursue wealth but nothing else. With a slowing economy the equation could alter and therefore demand more control than less. I see Xi making himself President for Life pretty much as not too different from Mao. He exhibits some of that cult of personality and seems to want the Communist Party to intrude into every aspect of daily life. His economy will help him fuel those goals for research and development into all things surveillance.

    I don't know if that can be stopped but there is no reason why the rest of the world should roll over and let China have it's way so easily.
    +1

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  8. #353
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    tbm3fan,

    Can you give me some idea why any US administration would want to launch a war on American consumers? Carpet bombing less well-off families’ standards of living isn’t going to return a single manufacturing job to the USA.

    As someone with a long career at the coal face of companies trying to do business in China and the rest of Asia, I can tell you it has never been easy. I can also tell you that foreign companies are able to do things in China today that they never even dreamed of 25 years ago. Sure, they will constantly bitch about IPR, but that was an issue long before they even thought up the technology that China steals. Japan did it, and Korea and Taiwan.

    As for AI, no government in the world is going to prevent China from moving forward on that front. But, to suggest that they are going to use AI “to control their 1.4 billion people” is to suggest (a) that no other government will do such a thing; and (b) that controlling people is something the Chinese people don’t want but can’t stop. I'm not so sure either is correct.

    As for the Chinese economy slowing down, please bear in mind that it has been growing at double digit rates for four decades, and that every single projection that ‘this can’t go on’ has been wrong.
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  9. #354
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Full article: https://www.dw.com/en/us-unveils-200...ffs/a-44611128
    US unveils $200 billion list of China imports for tariffs

    US officials have revealed a list of Chinese goods they will be targeting with 10 percent tariffs, raising fears of an escalating trade war. US retailers have slammed the decision.

    The US on Tuesday published a list of $200 billion (€170 billion) worth of Chinese goods that could soon be hit with tariffs.

    The move is a major escalation in a brewing trade war between the world's two largest economies.

    The Chinese commerce ministry responded to the proposed US tariffs, calling it completely unacceptable. It added that Beijing will have to respond to the latest moves by Washington.

    The US actions hurt America's own interests, China and the rest of the world, the ministry said in a statement.

    Tariffs by September

    According to the Office of the US Trade Representative:
    • The additional 6,031 product lines would be hit with a 10 percent tariff.
    • The list is subject to two months of finalization and input before possible implementation by President Donald Trump.
    • The earliest they would come into effect is September.
    • The products include various food items, chemicals, minerals, tobacco, electronics and office goods.

    Tax on American consumers

    The Retail Industry Leaders Association said new tariffs on Chinese imports would punish American families by driving up prices.

    Scott Lincicome, a trade lawyer for the group Republicans Fighting Tariffs, said tariffs on $200 billion would amount to a "multibillion-dollar tax on American businesses and families" and prompt China to retaliate against American exporters.

    US Senate Finance Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch described the move was "reckless."
    Last edited by Ironduke; 11 Jul 18, at 06:11.
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  10. #355
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I have no issue with the war itself but only with how it is waged. It would have been far better to wage the war in a united front that combined the U.S. with the EU, Canada, Australia and anyone else wary of China.
    I am not entirely in agreement, but close enough. If the industrialized nations want to bring the hammer down on China due to what they perceive as unfair trade practices, that's fine, but it should be a more united front. At least if you are going to take DRASTIC actions like this. The US has been taking smaller actions against China for quite some time, and we don't necessarily need the buy-in from Britian for smaller actions.

    However, Trump (and a lot of other people) buy into a mercantilist notion of trade, where deficits mean the US is losing. The US runs trade deficits with Japan, Mexico, and Germany, that are all pretty substantial. If you're going to go after China on these grounds, it only makes sense to go after Japan, Mexico, and Germany, too.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  11. #356
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    Trump (and a lot of other people) buy into a mercantilist notion of trade, where deficits mean the US is losing. The US runs trade deficits with Japan, Mexico, and Germany, that are all pretty substantial. If you're going to go after China on these grounds, it only makes sense to go after Japan, Mexico, and Germany, too.
    Why oh why do people insist that trade is a zero-sum game?
    Stop believing that bilateral trade deficits are inherently evil and see where that takes you.


    Let’s be absolutely clear: the Trump Administration has declared war on US businesses and consumers.
    The list of specific targets that will take the next full frontal attack include,

    Meat and fish: 377 items
    Dairy: 11 items
    Poultry and eggs: 7 items
    Honey, sugars: 6 items
    Human and animal hair or feathers: 7 items
    Fruit, vegetables, fungus, beans, nuts, herbs: 378 items
    Grains and seeds: 130 items
    Alcohols: 11 items
    Tobacco: 47 items
    Minerals including cement: 80 items
    Metals: 47 items
    Fuels and chemicals: I stopped counting at 350 items.

    The full list runs 205 pages, including electrical energy, and is here: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files...-10-2018_0.pdf
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  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Why oh why do people insist that trade is a zero-sum game?
    Stop believing that bilateral trade deficits are inherently evil and see where that takes you.


    Let’s be absolutely clear: the Trump Administration has declared war on US businesses and consumers.
    The list of specific targets that will take the next full frontal attack include,

    Meat and fish: 377 items
    Dairy: 11 items
    Poultry and eggs: 7 items
    Honey, sugars: 6 items
    Human and animal hair or feathers: 7 items
    Fruit, vegetables, fungus, beans, nuts, herbs: 378 items
    Grains and seeds: 130 items
    Alcohols: 11 items
    Tobacco: 47 items
    Minerals including cement: 80 items
    Metals: 47 items
    Fuels and chemicals: I stopped counting at 350 items.

    The full list runs 205 pages, including electrical energy, and is here: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files...-10-2018_0.pdf
    Trump doesn't care, which is why he is the first president to do something about it. He has no regard for Americans.

  13. #358
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Why oh why do people insist that trade is a zero-sum game?
    Stop believing that bilateral trade deficits are inherently evil and see where that takes you.


    Let’s be absolutely clear: the Trump Administration has declared war on US businesses and consumers.
    The list of specific targets that will take the next full frontal attack include,

    Meat and fish: 377 items
    Dairy: 11 items
    Poultry and eggs: 7 items
    Honey, sugars: 6 items
    Human and animal hair or feathers: 7 items
    Fruit, vegetables, fungus, beans, nuts, herbs: 378 items
    Grains and seeds: 130 items
    Alcohols: 11 items
    Tobacco: 47 items
    Minerals including cement: 80 items
    Metals: 47 items
    Fuels and chemicals: I stopped counting at 350 items.

    The full list runs 205 pages, including electrical energy, and is here: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files...-10-2018_0.pdf
    Comparative advantage is counter-intuitive for the random person. A lot of economics is. Unfortunately even academic instruction doesn't change that, at least if my business class was any example: price controls were still pretty popular among my fellow students, and we all had several semesters of required econ. And I'm not talking "Medicare should be allowed to bargain" (which is reasonable) but more basic consumer stuffs, rent, cars, etc.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  14. #359
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    Trump doesn't care, which is why he is the first president to do something about it. He has no regard for Americans.
    You can't "do something about" trade not being a zero-sum game.
    Misunderstand, yes.
    Do something about it? Nope.

    Common sense is highly over rated when it comes to economic theory.
    What "everyone knows" frequently turns out to be wrong.
    But, because everyone engages in transactions every day, people think they know what they're talking about.
    Trust me?
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  15. #360
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    DOR,

    What is wrong with increasing tax on imports from a certain country (China), which has been found to coerce foreign MNCs to share their IP rights, and doesn't let other companies to operate in their country (Alphabet, Google etc) to the extent their companies operate in other countries?
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - AR

    Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it!

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