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Thread: US Steel & Aluminum Tariffs

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    sounds good but only on the surface. i much prefer imperial brush wars, even shitty imperial brush wars like Iraq or Kosovo, than the potential wars of great power competition.

    especially a great power competition where we've isolated all of our allies.
    How about co-operating with our adversaries against our allies? Eisenhower slapping down the UK, France, and Israel.

    Trump’s America does not care

    by Robert Kagan June 14 at 3:48 PM
    He's describing tributary states. Nothing new.

    The US has been asking the allies for decades to pick up the slack. The allies didn't pick up the slack when the US was at her weakest (post Vietnam and under Carter). The allies didn't even pick up the slack in her own wars (Yugoslavia - Canada was one of top 3 in there. Canada. Think about that). Hell, when the US did more militarily than the rest of the allies combined in an European Operation (Lybia) for soley European gains and even then Germany withdrew, Trump has a point, a big point. Hell, they couldn't even agree to an European CO and picked a Canadian cargo plane pilot.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 15 Jun 18, at 17:46.

  2. #227
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    eh...i don't see anyone, even in Trumpland, whom was calling for Trump to wage a trade war on pretty much every single US ally in the world at the same time. now a good portion of the GOP base, like the Iowan farmers whom NEED exports to survive, are hanging out there.

    and that's not the only promise Trump made on the campaign trail. where's the bloody wall? where's that huge infrastructure plan?

    economic nationalism was a pillar of Trump's campaign, yes, but the core of Trump's support has always been based off cultural war stuff-- immigration.

    playing the trade war stuff is a lot of cost for very little gain, either politically or economically. and what support there IS for it will probably disappear once it starts hitting the pocketbook. :shrug:
    I don't really agree, the kind of people who are pissed about immigration are also pissed about China, which is why you've had so much complaining about outsourcing and China in the last decade plus. The guys in the rust belt want their jobs back and think a lot of them went overseas. They also have a pretty mercantilist view of economic relations in general.

    Obviously they think China is the big problem, but as people already noted, the US imports a lot more steel from other nations than China.

    Also, Trump hasn't delivered the wall, but he's obviously TRYING to deliver on the wall. And stopping "hostile Muslim immigration" or whatever the term is today. The only thing he's straight defaulted on is "draining the swamp" and preserving/advancing the safety net (which is directly at odds with tax cuts).


    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Right so imposing sanctions on your allies for "national security" purposes is really just like playing footsies or giving them a playfull kick? It should in no way be regarded as hostile.... Funny how words have to change their meaning for Trumpkin apologists.


    Well I certainly agree regarding German economic policy in the EU. But look the aggressor is the one who changes the starts changing the status quo - the first to cross the border into their neighbours land or put tarriffs on their trading partners goods. I actually thought Trump said he was doing these tarriffs specifically toward China but it seems he must do the Kremlin's bidding and penalise US allies. You really believe this is good for US interests? The Kremlin will be very happy.
    Trump's claim for "national security" is pretty much bullshit. He's claiming it because the President cannot impose tariffs, but Congress granted an exemption for national security reasons. So Trump can claim "national security" and impose tariffs.
    Sort of like in House of Cards when Spacey had the DC mayor claim an "emergency" in DC because of the lack of jobs, so Spacey could use federal relief dollars to provide jobs (since Congress refused to provide him money for jobs otherwise).
    Trudeau either knows this and is playing dumb for media points, or he is honestly dumb. I'd believe either out of that guy.


    I don't believe this little trade dust-up is good for US interests. It's highly damaging to US interests, probably one of the more damaging things Trump has done. On the other hand the US and Europe have sufficiently different policy interests that long-term we're not going to be joined at the hip if Europe really wants to assert itself, and this alliance is wayyyyyyy better off if the US takes the lead in everything. If not there's no benefit to us continually investing in Europe and just making stupid concessions.

    Europe has way more to lose from breaking it than we do. They may have the world's largest economy, but they have soooooooo many problems and their international clout is a lottttt weaker than they think.

    I'd say it's fun to annoy the Trump detractors, but the Trump detractors on my Facebook feed largely don't even care about this. It's all something about immigrants and their families or whatever. This is obviously way worse than that.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 15 Jun 18, at 17:41.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  3. #228
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    How about co-operating with our adversaries against our allies? Eisenhower slapping down the UK, France, and Israel.
    this is actually a pretty good example of the US slapping down allies from trying to work outside of the US-led system, not issues from within.

    Trump has a point, a big point.
    i think you're misinterpreting Trump's point. to the extent that Trump IS like earlier Presidents, it was with the earlier call to invest more in collective security. faced with the threat of US pullback, quite a few nations at least made ingratiating noises in that aspect.

    HOWEVER, that is no longer the thrust of Trump's Europe policy. Trump is now busy signaling that he's happy to abandon these alliances (to include ABCA)-- not over military contributions, but over economic considerations.

    Kagan points out that this was the fundamental construct of the post WWII US-led international order, where the US takes military lead and Europe was free to economically grow as long as she did not jog the US elbow (ie, try to leave the alliance or establish a new pole of power).

    i don't think Trump would now be any happier if every NATO nation hit the defense spending requirements or contributed more to the common defense. his fight is over (historically low) tariffs.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    this is actually a pretty good example of the US slapping down allies from trying to work outside of the US-led system, not issues from within.
    You're not going to tell me that London and Paris is more pissed off now than they were then. The alliance has survived worst than Trump.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    i think you're misinterpreting Trump's point. to the extent that Trump IS like earlier Presidents, it was with the earlier call to invest more in collective security. faced with the threat of US pullback, quite a few nations at least made ingratiating noises in that aspect.
    Now they're forced to.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    HOWEVER, that is no longer the thrust of Trump's Europe policy. Trump is now busy signaling that he's happy to abandon these alliances (to include ABCA)-- not over military contributions, but over economic considerations.
    Let's not jump the gun. Trump is nowhere near abandonning the alliances and the allies have abandon the US before. Vietnam and Iraq comes to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    Kagan points out that this was the fundamental construct of the post WWII US-led international order, where the US takes military lead and Europe was free to economically grow as long as she did not jog the US elbow (ie, try to leave the alliance or establish a new pole of power).

    i don't think Trump would now be any happier if every NATO nation hit the defense spending requirements or contributed more to the common defense. his fight is over (historically low) tariffs.
    Trump is putting his mark on America First. He maybe doing it wrongly but I do not think he should apologize for putting US interests above all else.

  5. #230
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    Let's not jump the gun. Trump is nowhere near abandonning the alliances and the allies have abandon the US before. Vietnam and Iraq comes to mind.
    well i sure hope so.

    in any case he just gave pretty-boy Trudeau a lot of political support...if Trudeau wins the next election he should probably send some roses!
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Trump is putting his mark on America First. He maybe doing it wrongly but I do not think he should apologize for putting US interests above all else.
    If I thought for one second that Trump's call for "America First" and "Make America Great Again" were actually about the US, I might see your point.

    But it's always been about "Trump First" and "Make Trump Great". Always.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    If I thought for one second that Trump's call for "America First" and "Make America Great Again" were actually about the US, I might see your point.

    But it's always been about "Trump First" and "Make Trump Great". Always.
    For the rest of the world, the POTUS and the US are one and the same. Obama screamed "charge" and he expected everybody else to fall in line.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    If I thought for one second that Trump's call for "America First" and "Make America Great Again" were actually about the US, I might see your point.

    But it's always been about "Trump First" and "Make Trump Great". Always.
    What he said.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    For the rest of the world, the POTUS and the US are one and the same. Obama screamed "charge" and he expected everybody else to fall in line.
    Obama and his hero worshippers were delusional in their own way.

    Trump takes "unhinged kleptocrat" up to a whole new level of crazy.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Obama and his hero worshippers were delusional in their own way.

    Trump takes "unhinged kleptocrat" up to a whole new level of crazy.
    Maybe but that does not change that he acts and speaks for the US and we, the world, have to act accordingly. We cannot and must not treat him as an asshole. We can think it but the time we insult a US President is when the rest of the US would rally against us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    For the rest of the world, the POTUS and the US are one and the same. Obama screamed "charge" and he expected everybody else to fall in line.
    How did he expect everyone to fall in line?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    How did he expect everyone to fall in line?
    You didn't read his bitching tirade that the Brits had betrayed him when they put the Syrian strike to a Parlimentary vote?

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You didn't read his bitching tirade that the Brits had betrayed him when they put the Syrian strike to a Parlimentary vote?
    Right, so he made some statements. What specific action did he take against other allied nations- tariffs, sanctions?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Right, so he made some statements. What specific action did he take against other allied nations- tariffs, sanctions?
    Invade their sovergnty, ie the attack on OBL and other non-Pakistani sanctioned targets inside Pakistan but what has this got to do with him expecting allies falling into line?
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 16 Jun 18, at 16:51.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Invade their sovergnty, ie the attack on OBL and other non-Pakistani sanctioned targets inside Pakistan but what has this got to do with him expecting allies falling into line?
    So you against the OBL hit now? You think they should have got a pass?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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