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Thread: US Naval Forces assigned to Invasion of Japan in WW2

  1. #1
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    US Naval Forces assigned to Invasion of Japan in WW2

    Friends and I were discussing this potential event over dinner. His dad was going to be on a LST with the initial wave of troops; mine was on an DE escorting those ships. Question is; are there any published reports on the US Naval Task Organizations listing all the ships that were to be assigned to Operation Olympic?

    I have researched this on Google and found no luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archdude View Post
    Friends and I were discussing this potential event over dinner. His dad was going to be on a LST with the initial wave of troops; mine was on an DE escorting those ships. Question is; are there any published reports on the US Naval Task Organizations listing all the ships that were to be assigned to Operation Olympic?

    I have researched this on Google and found no luck
    Take a look at this link and the various sub-links. It might give you some idea of what was where.

    Do you know which unit your friend's dad was attached to and what DE your father was on?

    http://www.alternatewars.com/WW2/Dow...OOB_Allied.htm
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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    'Operation Olympic' would have been a disaster at Kyushu.

    https://fas.org/irp/eprint/arens/chap4.htm

    ....and other links on a Google search.

    OC

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    Don't think so. Their air and naval facilities would have been bombed to smithereens. By this time, B17s were operating way too high for Japanese fighters to reach. Incindaries have done the job of nukes. Lemay was quite ready to burn all Japanese paper and wood cities to the ground. Imagine a nearby city burning with your military doing disaster control while the Americans are landing.

    Also, let's not forget about nukes. There's nothing stopping the Americans from nuking a corridor through the beaches.

    And I'm not even counting on the fact that there were 500 million+ Chinese who gladly volunteer to be transported by the Americans to do a Genghis Khan on Japan.

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    You have not read the 'Operation Ketsu-Go' piece have you?

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    Yes I have but that's the fault of the Japanese plan. They were basing their plan on insufficent and inaccurate intelligence. The Americans have absolutely zero intentions of fighting the battle the Japanese were preparing for.

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    Not so! They had no idea at that time of the preps on Kyushu. They did not even know that the Japanese have deduced that Kyushu was the 'Olympic' site. Kysushu was being flooded with every soldier etc that they could ship from China etc. Even the mothers and kids had sharp bamboo sticks. Imagine killing a 12 year old, with stick aimed at your heart. They had Okinawa to learn from recent history!

    Not sure the USAAF had all that many B17s in operational service over Japan in late 1945? Mostly B29s with the range i think! And from 'Keysu-Go' I doubt that they cared about what happened to wooden houses. They were going to die for the Emporer no matter what happened to Japan. And 500 million Chinese in 1945? That would have to include the mothers and babies I guess, and how do you ship 500 million people in idle spare ships nobody needed in 1945.

    The other lesson forJapan from Okinawa was leave the carriers alone, and head for the troop-ships. And do not send 50 Kamikazis at a time, but 500 and 1000 at a time, as soon as they come with in range of the Kyushu coast! The US sure would have needed those 500.000 Purple Hearts they minted just in case!

    Truman knew all this, as did the Generals and the Bomb saved the day with the bravest executive decision ever taken. But imagine if he had said NO to Manhattan and GO to Olympic, when the grieving mothers of America found out that he had the means to stop the war but did not, they would have dragged him out of the White House and LYNCHED HIM!


    OC

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    Both Op OLYMPIC and DOWNFALL were automatically obsolete after TRINITY. The debate was not IF the nukes were going to be used but HOW. OLYMPIC and DOWNFALL Admirals and Generals were pushing for blasting the beaches open.

    Also, it didn't matter what kind of prep work Kyushu had. Amateurs think tactics and strategy. Professionals think logistics. Both the IJA and the IJN were still clueless about this, especially since both Nimitz and MacArthur and already bypass a lot of their strongpoints. Before the first ships sail within sight of the Home Islands, the USAAF would have reduced Japanese LOCs to human mules. The spearpoint is a lot easier to handle when the shaft is broken. The US was not going to forget the lesson that they had inflicted on the LUFTWAFFLE before D-Day. There would be no 500-1000 kamakazie headed out to sea.

    I also remind you that Curtis Lemay had already firebombed Tokyo, inflicting a lot more damage than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Lemay had plans to firebomb nearby cities in conjunction with the landings, distracting troops between fighting off the Americans and damage control.

    Also, by this time, the entire war was lost and again, the Japanese were absolutely clueless even when they had forewarning. The Soviets entered the war and took Manchuria and Korea. With that, the Imperial Japanese Empire ceased to exist, leaving only the Japanese Home Islands and even then, the Soviets took Kuril Islands and South Sakhalin. This was a two front invasion.

    Op KETSU-GO was obsolete by the Soviet action.

    As for the 500,000 Purple Hearts. That should tell you that the Americans were prepared for such casualties. It was not a showstopper by any means and certainly does not mean that Op OLYMPIC would have been a disaster.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 07 Jun 19, at 21:32.

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    "Both Op OLYMPIC and DOWNFALL were automatically obsolete after TRINITY. The debate was not IF the nukes were going to be used but HOW. OLYMPIC and DOWNFALL Admirals and Generals were pushing for blasting the beaches open."


    I am aware of that, but this discussion is about the actual scenario of 'Olympic', and later 'Coronet', "DOWNFALL was the overall task of the successfull invasion and surrender of Japan. If 'Olympic' had been tried and failed then 'Coronet' would most certainly have been cancelled, and the fall-back of Manhattan would have been used. Or perhaps the "Unconditional Surrender" demand may have been dropped.


    "Also, it didn't matter what kind of prep work Kyushu had. Amateurs think tactics and strategy. Professionals think logistics."

    A point scorer you seem to have ignored, and I suggest a more thorough re-read of the FAS essay I have quoted.

    "Both the IJA and the IJN were still clueless about this, especially since both Nimitz and MacArthur and already bypass a lot of their strongpoints. Before the first ships sail within sight of the Home Islands, the USAAF would have reduced Japanese LOCs to human mules. The spearpoint is a lot easier to handle when the shaft is broken. The US was not going to forget the lesson that they had inflicted on the LUFTWAFFLE before D-Day. There would be no 500-1000 kamakazie headed out to sea."


    They did not even know the kamikazis were THERE!



    "I also remind you that Curtis Lemay had already firebombed Tokyo, inflicting a lot more damage than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Lemay had plans to firebomb nearby cities in conjunction with the landings, distracting troops between fighting off the Americans and damage control."

    I do not need reminding, I am not talking about LeMay and his attacks, it bears nil relationship to the Kyushu area of operations.

    "Also, by this time, the entire war was lost and again, the Japanese were absolutely clueless even when they had forewarning. The Soviets entered the war and took Manchuria and Korea. With that, the Imperial Japanese Empire ceased to exist, leaving only the Japanese Home Islands and even then, the Soviets took Kuril Islands and South Sakhalin. This was a two front invasion."

    I refer you AGAIN to the KETSU-GO essay!


    "Op KETSU-GO was obsolete by the Soviet action."


    The USSR invasion took place for multiple reasons. The first was that Stalin was ASKED (at YALTA) to enter the war 3 months after the surrender of Germany, this he did to the day! He did so because he wanted the southern half of Sackalin island AND the Kurriles! He also demanded that as another condition he insisted that ALL Russian POWs liberated by the Allies be returnd to Russia, They ALL went tio the Gulags!


    "As for the 500,000 Purple Hearts. That should tell you that the Americans were prepared for such casualties."


    I am aware of thet also, that is why i mentioned it!


    "It was not a showstopper by any means and certainly does not mean that Op OLYMPIC would have been a disaster."


    The KETSU-GO essay tells you why it would have been a disaster!


    OC

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    The article refers to the Japanese Operatioinal Plan without detailing the actual strategic situation. The intelligence picture that it presents is neither accurate nor complete by August 1945. The ground realities have changed big time and I do not deal in what-ifs that ignores the realities on the ground. The reality was that the intelligence that KETSU-GO relied on was both inaccurate and insufficent to present the disaster that the essay was trying to portray.

    Sure, if Darth Vader had sided with Japan but that is not the reality facing Japan.

    The facts on the ground are: The US had nukes. The Soviets had entered the war, meaning that the allies already have a successful beachhead on the Japanese islands. The US would have burned every factory and that meant every city to the ground. Human mule LOCs was going to be the backbone of Japanese logistics. OLYMPIC was not going to happen without nukes.

    No amount of banzai charges are going to turn this into an OLYMPIC disaster that this essay wants to portray.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 07 Jun 19, at 22:52.

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    The article deals with events and plans leading up to August and beyond, seeing that no-one knew of 'Manhattan' at that time. The completion date for KETSU-GO was 1st November, the same date as Olympic!

    If you think I am talking about "what-ifs" then I can ony suggest that you have wasted your time with the FAS work!

    In my view Darth Vader is more your style than me at my very advanced age.

    OC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Codger39 View Post
    The article deals with events and plans leading up to August and beyond, seeing that no-one knew of 'Manhattan' at that time. The completion date for KETSU-GO was 1st November, the same date as Olympic!
    TRINITY was 16 July 1945. At that point, everything about the invasion of Japan was put on hold. Those plans automatically became obsolete as Truman and the Staff decided on what to do. The prep work continued in case the Japanese did not surrender but make no mistake, the nukes were going to continue. The US had plans to drop a 3rd nuke and continued production.

    Op AUGUST STORM rendered KETSU-GO moot. The allies have invaded and not where the Japanese expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Codger39 View Post
    If you think I am talking about "what-ifs" then I can ony suggest that you have wasted your time with the FAS work!
    I am category stating that the Japanese knew squat and thought squat. What they thought were both out of date and wrong.

    And I know FAS. They are not the end-all/be-all of military resources. A lot of their work have been proven wrong. Israeli thermonuclear weapons comes to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Codger39 View Post
    In my view Darth Vader is more your style than me at my very advanced age.
    My view from 20+ years of military service, retiring with the rank of LCol says you don't know how to read intel. The Japanese got their intel wrong. Period.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 07 Jun 19, at 23:11.

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    I shall watch your posts with interest as I come across them in subjects that interest me.

    Be assured, your rank means nothing, apart from being quite UNimpressed!

    OC

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    I really don't care how impressed or unimpressed you are. I'm stating right off that bat that your FAS essay makes zero military sense given the ground realities. We've got 2 nukes that gone off and somehow I'm supposed to believe that the Americans would not drop another nuke on my beach forts? And I should still focus on the unseen Americans when the Soviets already crashed through my backdoor. Even if I believe the Americans are still coming, I have to rush to close the backdoor.

    Lastly, yeah, fanatical defences with kids and bamboo spears. Again, the Japanese knew squat. The point of maneuver warfare is force on weak, not force on strong. The Americans thought nothing about burning cities to the ground with or without kids in them.

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    i'm sure the Americans would have been surprised by some of the things that Japanese had in store for them...but all this fanatical banzai kamikaze stuff is nothing the Americans by 1945 weren't prepared to deal with. the IJA in Okinawa gave the Americans some nasty surprises but the conclusion was foregone.

    the Japanese, on the other hand, had no idea of what the Americans could do given operational space of manuever.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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