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  • #91
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    David Devdas has been covering Kashmir for a while now. His takes don't sit easily with a lot of people. They disagree with him but have to grudgingly accept what he says

    To Kashmiris Who Grew up During the 1990s, India Was the Army | The Wire | Jul 08 2018
    I am from the region where AFSPA was applied and is still in force. Can Devadas tell me:

    Q. why I didn't feel humiliated or shook with fear every time I saw the para-military patrolling the streets?
    A. because I felt safe, and many others did. I could complete my tuitions and come home by 7 PM, and having those men with guns on the streets made me think.....oh shit I lived another day.

    Q. why, instead of the terrain being similar, NE though troubled, is returning to normalcy?
    A. because people were fed up. Fed up of the killings, of being dirt poor. Their aspirations rose seeing the developed parts of India.

    Q. why every author, sheds his crocodile tears for Kashmir, but not much for the NE?
    A. if not Pulitzer, then this type of articles get them noticed. Thekedars of the left wing.

    Everybody's plight is Kashmir because they say India is killing Muslims. No. India is killing terrorists who happen to be Muslims, Christians as well as Hindus and Sikhs. Some kashmiris support them, and as long as they support these proxies of the Pakistan Army, they will be found out and killed. America is doing this in Afghanistan-Pakistan and around the globe, I don't see any reason why India can't do the same in our own land. Everything else be damned. Who's going to stop us?

    These type of journalists peddle yellow journalism, the Mani Shankar/Barkha Dutt types', who's so indulgent in discrediting the forces and glamorising terrorism in Kashmir and by extension Pakistan that they can't see how often they get used against their own country. Life was difficult for me too when I was growing up. I had a choice. I took it. I chose to study, do things on my own merit, instead of picking up a gun. I know some people who went the other way, their obituaries came shortly in the newspapers.
    Last edited by Oracle; 13 Sep 18,, 22:00.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
      These type of journalists peddle yellow journalism, the Mani Shankar/Barkha Dutt types', who's so indulgent in discrediting the forces and glamorising terrorism in Kashmir and by extension Pakistan that they can't see how often they get used against their own country.
      He's not in the same category as them.

      You must be familiar with Sushant Sareen. Well Sushant was the one who introduced him at the beginning of his book talk. You will not see more different thinking individuals on Kashmir. In fact Sushant thought pretty much the same that is until he read his first book. Previous article is about his second book.

      There was a Brigadier there who served right at the start in '89. He said he didn't understand what he was up against until his term was up three years later. David explains what the problem is. This is a man who is going to seriously challenge your thinking on Kashmir. He's had an uncanny knack for being right for some time now. The govt does not care to listen to him. Not this one or the previous.

      Reporting on kashmir these days is of two varieties pro separatist or pro state. There is no middle ground because it has become dangerous for journalists to report from there unlike earlier. When people there see what gets shown in the rest of the country they decided these journalists were not worth it. So reporting is done via the internet or telephone. This guy tries for that middle ground.

      The Brigadier also thought David didn't spend enough time talking about what was coming across the border. The reason David gave for that is the young there don't care about Pakistan or the Hurriyat. We ain't in the 90s any more. They seem to be in the Jamat Islami camp.

      Check out his articles and see what you think

      https://thewire.in/author/david-devadas
      Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Sep 18,, 08:51.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        He's not in the same category as them.

        You must be familiar with Sushant Sareen. Well Sushant was the one who introduced him at the beginning of his book talk. You will not see more different thinking individuals on Kashmir. Previous article is about his book.

        There was a Brigadier there who served right at the start in '89. He said he didn't understand what he was up against until his term was up three years later. David explains what the problem is. This is a man who is going to seriously challenge your thinking on Kashmir. He's had an uncanny knack for being right for some time now. The govt does not care to listen to him. Not this one or the previous.

        The Brigadier also thought David didn't spend enough time talking about what was coming across the border. The reason David gave for that is the young there don't care about Pakistan or the Hurriyat. We ain't in the 90s any more. They seem to be in the Jamat Islami camp.

        Check out his articles and see what you think

        https://thewire.in/author/david-devadas
        I am familiar with SS, I don't actually agree with most of his points. As for Devadas, some of his articles from the link provided by you are:
        Arrogance and Miscalculations Have Weakened Modi's Hand in Kashmir
        The End of Burhan Wani: 'Capture' Rather Than 'Kill' is Better for National Security
        The Army Problem in Kashmir That No One Wants to Talk About

        Titles such as these, smells of urban-naxal sympathy towards their islamic terrorist comrades.

        Capture terrorists? What is he smoking? The para-military forces give ample opportunity to these local islamic jihadis to surrender and there have been casualties in the forces' ranks due to this surrender policy (personally I am not a fan of such policies). 'Kill' is the second and final option. He spent 3 decades in Kashmir, has he ever tried to put himself in the boots of the ordinary force personnel of what they go through? Someone is from Coimbatore, some from Alwar, some from Assam - these people have no beef in this fight, but they still brave their life with very little options that the state gives them and ensures national integrity. Indian security forces kill so that there isn't a bigger mayhem in metros such as Mumbai or Delhi. We sleep in peace exactly because our security forces fight it out in Kashmir. If talks were the answer, Kashmir would have been solved long back.

        There are overground workers of these jihadis in apple orchards and remote areas that help run this Pakistan Army terrorist syndicate. This writer has no basic idea of how terrorism ensures survival of the Pakistani Army. Living in Kashmir does not mean he knows shit all. Most Indian journalist know jack, and you want me to believe he has an extra-ordinary Kashmiri mind?
        Last edited by Oracle; 14 Sep 18,, 16:19.
        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Oracle View Post
          I am familiar with SS, I don't actually agree with most of his points. As for Devadas, some of his articles from the link provided by you are:
          Arrogance and Miscalculations Have Weakened Modi's Hand in Kashmir
          The End of Burhan Wani: 'Capture' Rather Than 'Kill' is Better for National Security
          The Army Problem in Kashmir That No One Wants to Talk About

          Titles such as these, smells of urban-naxal sympathy towards their islamic terrorist comrades.
          See, what you're saying here is similar in sentiment to what Sushant would say. He did imply as much in his intro. So it surprises me you do not agree with a lot of what Sushant says. What do you disagree with Sushant on btw ?

          The only reason i've mentioned David here is because Sushant introduced him. That takes some doing. That ORF hosts this launch seals the deal for me. I've found their work to be very good as well as their analysts.

          Capture terrorists? What is he smoking? The para-military forces give ample opportunity to these local islamic jihadis to surrender and there have been casualties in the forces' ranks due to this surrender policy (personally I am not a fan of such policies). 'Kill' is the second and final option. He spent 3 decades in Kashmir, has he ever tried to put himself in the boots of the ordinary force personnel of what they go through? Someone is from Coimbatore, some from Alwar, some from Assam - these people have no beef in this fight, but they still brave their life with very little options that the state gives them and ensures national integrity. Indian security forces kill so that there isn't a bigger mayhem in metros such as Mumbai or Delhi. We sleep in peace exactly because our security forces fight it out in Kashmir. If talks were the answer, Kashmir would have been solved long back.

          There are overground workers of these jihadis in apple orchards and remote areas that help run this Pakistan Army terrorist syndicate. This writer has no basic idea of how terrorism ensures survival of the Pakistani Army. Living in Kashmir does not mean he knows shit all.
          We are only reacting tactically. We don't have a game that is influencing people there. Look at the casualties and you will find more of our own in that list than from across the border. Only one third was foreign from last year.

          Regaining hearts & minds we are not doing. That's his major thrust. He's bluntly called out how we squandered an opening Vajpayee created. That goodwill lasted till 2007.


          Most Indian journalist know jack, and you want me to believe he has an extra-ordinary Kashmiri mind?
          He reliably predicted the unrest of 2008, 2010 & 2016 without the state having the slightest inkling of what was brewing. He's characterised the differences between era's of militancy. The idea that he's a terrorist sympathiser is unfounded.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Sep 18,, 13:32.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Oracle View Post
            If talks were the answer, Kashmir would have been solved long back.
            The problem for both India & Pakistan is Kashmir wants India out and Gilgit wants Pakistan out. A common thread running through both areas.

            Only Azad kashmir is happy with Pakistan, they are small and try to get GB to side with them to make their case larger with mixed success.

            So the Paks push their people into GB. We can't do that in Kashmir. Not yet any way.

            The ethnic makeups are different as well. GB is predominantly Shia which the Paks are trying to dilute.

            Kashmir is more Sunni which makes it more vulnerable to wahhabi style extremism. That sort of thing won't work with Shias.

            What surprises most Indians is this azadi thing when Kashmir has operated as a state within a state since Independence almost.

            Section 377 & 35A are as far as we go with autonomy and even then we want those removed

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              See, what you're saying here is similar in sentiment to what Sushant would say. He did imply as much in his intro. So it surprises me you do not agree with a lot of what Sushant says. What do you disagree with Sushant on btw ?
              I don't remember at this point in time, but next time you post a SS article, maybe I will point it out. I have found only one, whose views I agree 90% of the time, and he is Minhaz Merchant. If tomorrow he posts BS, I will call him out too.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              The only reason i've mentioned David here is because Sushant introduced him. That takes some doing. That ORF hosts this launch seals the deal for me. I've found their work to be very good as well as their analysts.
              I am an ordinary civilian like most here, reading, learning. My opinion is subject to change, if change happens. ORF is good, I don't debate that. Its individuals and their thinking, who without doing basic research on any particular subject start peddling news/opinions like SOAP opera, that I have a problem with. Things that I have said in this forum about terrorism -its causes, effects etc, I have had the same thinking since I was, well, 16-17 probably, and that is because I knew the thinking/ideologies of some of those people. I think a lot, not everything is correct, so I learn when someone points out the flaws in my thinking. I don't get paid to write my opinions here, so I don't peddle BS in the same tune every time. You must have realised, I have and continue to criticize both the Congress and the BJP. I only offer issue-based support. No individual is bigger than a political party, is bigger than the country.

              I introduce you to a platform (our thinking isn't the same, we argue a lot), doesn't mean every single individual will fall for your line of thinking. What is missing is independent thinking in India. Indians will baahhh, what their leaders baahhh. Very few people use their analytical and logical thinking abilities.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              We are only reacting tactically. We don't have a game that is influencing people there. Look at the casualties and you will find more of our own in that list than from across the border. Only one third was foreign from last year.

              Regaining hearts & minds we are not doing. That's his major thrust. He's bluntly called out how we squandered an opening Vajpayee created. That goodwill lasted till 2007.
              Vajpayee created what exactly? And he got, what exactly, in return? You don't see the irony in that?

              Devadas said some Jamat company is influencing the generation X Kashmiris, right? And among many other things - winning hearts and minds etc? Kashmir & the NE gets a lion's share of development money from the Central Government, plus unaccounted money that the IB/R&AW uses to grease the palms of politicians & useless leaders etc in our side of the border, to keep things calm. No government since independence had a Kashmir policy, and when they did have something, they couldn't see the forest for the trees. Vajpayee gets mentioned by the left and the Pakistanis because they see him as a liberal who ate meat and drank whisky, and could have been persuaded to let go off PoK for a final settlement. Vajpayee tried that too, again what happened?

              Hearts & minds cannot be changed till the time the PA keeps channeling aid-money & fake Indian currency into Kashmir, and keeps Kashmir on the boil by the use of terrorists. That tap needs to be closed. No money, support for terrorists will fizzle out.

              What is needed in Kashmir is offensive 24X7 COIN ops, and continuous special forces hits across the border, whenever intel or satellite imagery picks up something. Suspend whatsapp/FB/Instagram/Telegram/Signal over there. Run a very strict routine for atleast 2 years, with massive infrastructure development. Use intel to find dirt on Hurriyat, Jamaat Company and everybody singing the tune of Pak, and send them behind bars. Tackle the narcotics problem peddled by the PA. See the change after 2 years.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              He reliably predicted the unrest of 2008, 2010 & 2016 without the state having the slightest inkling of what was brewing. He's characterised the differences between era's of militancy.
              I don't care what he's predicted, unless he comes up with Newton's 4th law that deals specifically with the menace of terrorism that comes from Pakistan. A kindergarten kid can understand that these same protests fizzled out after de-monetisation.

              Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              The idea that he's a terrorist sympathiser is unfounded.
              Show me his analysis of the continued support of terrorism by the PA. Show me his analysis of the reasoning of the PA to do so. He might not be a terrorist sympathiser, but he certainly is an idiot from the left cabal.
              Last edited by Oracle; 15 Sep 18,, 20:16.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                The problem for both India & Pakistan is Kashmir wants India out and Gilgit wants Pakistan out. A common thread running through both areas.
                Who said Kashmir wants India out?

                Wasn't it their Maharaja who requested the GoI to save their ass in 1947 from tribal islamic marauders who came alongwith the PA to loot and rape them?

                Wasn't it Kashmiri Muslims, who the PA thought would rebel against the GoI if they capture Kashmir in 1965, but the opposite happened?

                There are some Kashmiris, I agree, who want India out. They had their chances in 1947 to migrate to Pakistan. Now, if we see them crossing the border, they'd be shot. This is the way it is, and they can thank Pakistan Army for this. They are the ones who grew to be influenced by Salafi Islamic teachings that KSA funded madrassas taught over the years. And the GoI, happily turned over cash to whoever in Kashmir spoke against the Government. They were treated with kid gloves. Some I said, paid agents of the PA. We still have the instrument of accession. Not giving an inch of our territory to a failed Islamic hellhole named Pakistan. We would rather sit it out until the day Pakistan falls.

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                Only Azad kashmir is happy with Pakistan, they are small and try to get GB to side with them to make their case larger with mixed success.
                Make an account on Twitter and check out how happy people in PoK are. And what the hell is Azad Kashmir? This is what happens when people read and revere journalists like Devadas, because.....what(?)......yeah....he has 3 decades of experience living in Kashmir. Right.

                Where is the Indian Army's PoV, or they don't have one according to the leftists?

                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                So the Paks push their people into GB. We can't do that in Kashmir. Not yet any way.

                The ethnic makeups are different as well. GB is predominantly Shia which the Paks are trying to dilute.

                Kashmir is more Sunni which makes it more vulnerable to wahhabi style extremism. That sort of thing won't work with Shias.

                What surprises most Indians is this azadi thing when Kashmir has operated as a state within a state since Independence almost.

                Section 377 & 35A are as far as we go with autonomy and even then we want those removed
                Section 377 & 35A have to go someday. I can wait. And I believe India can wait too.
                Last edited by Oracle; 22 Sep 18,, 11:35.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                • #98
                  An assessment of ongoing operation All out

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                  • #99
                    Another assessment of operation all out

                    Comment


                    • 28:05 Manoj said the Indian govt set up the Hurriyat. It was felt they could be spoken to. So its not a good idea to be ignoring them is the implication.



                      He has updated an earlier book he wrote about militancy in the 90s.

                      14:30 the question is asked as to whether the draw down of the soviets allowed afghan fighters to fight in Kashmir. Yes, but they weren't very effective. It's a lot harder to infiltrate into India than across the Durand line into Afghanistan. Larger weapons can be taken across the latter than the former

                      Afghanistan allows the Paks plausible deniablity to train militants there. The LeT got trained in Kunar in the 80s after it was liberated by the mujahideen
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Apr 19,, 01:45.

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                      • Clean-up signals a shift, hurts old consensus in Jammu Kashmir | ET | Jun 11 2019

                        Despite uninspiring operations, it was assumed that no govt will let this lifeline of the Valley go bust.
                        By Pranab Dhal Samanta, ET Bureau|Updated: Jun 11, 2019, 09.38 PM IST

                        The crackdown on Jammu & Kashmir Bank is more than just punching holes in the records of a recalcitrant financial institution. It’s a strong political message to Srinagar that Delhi will leave no stone unturned to wreck the consensus which has run the city, the Valley and its politics for the past three decades.

                        This was an uneasy consensus among the various shades of Kashmir — the militant, the protester, the politician, government employees, civil society, NGOs and yes, even sections of the security establishment — that evolved over time into a sort of ruling class, which became both the threat and guarantor to peace depending on how the conversation stood with the powers in Delhi.

                        J&K Bank was at the heart of this consensus. From Jamaat-I-Islami and the Hurriyat on one extreme to the National Conference and the People’s Democratic Party on the other, or for that matter, scores of government employees and small business — all dealt with the ‘bank’.

                        The big advantage was that while it was a state-owned entity for all practical purposes, RBI norms categorised it as an old private sector bank. So, accountability to government was not as strict as it was for usual public sector banks. Yet, all state business went to this bank.

                        The commercial ventures of the bank weren’t inspiring either, but what always worked was the general assumption that no government will let this lifeline of the Valley go bust. And that was true. Even in the last couple of years, the government’s equity stake has risen from 53.17% in 2015-16 to 59.23% in 2017-18.

                        This illustrates the growing dependency on equity infusion by the government. But no one ever questioned the economics, because the politics of the day sustained this model. It tied the Valley down to a web of transactions with the Indian financial system, made its key institution dependent on the government and provided those extra levers to keep the balance of this Valley consensus going.

                        The BJP, however, saw things differently. Yet, it remained acquiescent till the time the coalition with PDP stayed in power. At some point, it appears, the party leadership realised that its national political campaign against dynastic and elitist politics would work splendidly on those who drove the Valley consensus. The security dimension provided the suitable anchor for that narrative.

                        The facts on the ground were equally compelling, given the kind of family enterprise being run by the Bank’s brass.

                        The first part of the action happened through investigations into terror financing by the National Investigation Agency, which brought accounts of key Hurriyat and Jamaat leaders under the scanner. This was followed by transparency action, which sought to bring the Bank under CVC and RTI guidelines. Union protests followed but still, an effort to open a branch in Dubai was stopped.

                        The script of anti-graft crackdown was then worked upon and followed up soon after the second Narendra Modi government took charge.

                        The sequence when put together lends itself to a big picture that old consensus in the Valley will be dismantled, for it has allegedly become self-serving, elitist, club-like, collusive and corrupt.

                        This is not to say the bank will go down. In fact, it may well be restructured and resurrected as a public sector entity after the clean-up with fresh equity infusion and a new leadership. But its ‘clean-up’ would by then have marked the beginning of a new political dynamic in the Valley – the terms of which will be set by Delhi and not Srinagar.

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                        • Need 100 companies of paras. What could be the reason ? is the 35A judgement coming up soon...

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                          • So, 10K additional para-military. Very good.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                            • All kinds of speculation floating around as to why additional paras needed.

                              Security beef-up in Jammu and Kashmir: What is the reason behind Centre's move? | Moneycontrol | Aug 02 2019

                              Why massive deployment of troops is taking place in Kashmir | TOI | Aug 02 2019


                              - govt plans to abrogate 35A & 370

                              - bifurcation of the state, jammu becomes a state, Kashmir & Ladakh become UT's

                              - Modi will hoist the flag in Kashmir on independence day

                              - assembly elections are nearing but those are at the end of the year. Amarnath refugees won't be told to cut short their pilgrimage

                              - there is a threat to attack these pilgrims

                              - govt plans to return the pandits

                              - Modi will come up with some ordinance on Aug 07

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                All kinds of speculation floating around as to why additional paras needed.

                                Security beef-up in Jammu and Kashmir: What is the reason behind Centre's move? | Moneycontrol | Aug 02 2019

                                Why massive deployment of troops is taking place in Kashmir | TOI | Aug 02 2019


                                - govt plans to abrogate 35A & 370

                                - bifurcation of the state, jammu becomes a state, Kashmir & Ladakh become UT's

                                - Modi will hoist the flag in Kashmir on independence day

                                - assembly elections are nearing but those are at the end of the year. Amarnath refugees won't be told to cut short their pilgrimage

                                - there is a threat to attack these pilgrims

                                - govt plans to return the pandits

                                - Modi will come up with some ordinance on Aug 07
                                Of everything listed, rumors are Modi will hoist the National Flag on 15th August. Apart from that, what is absolutely clear is that Pakistan Army and their notorious stooges of the ISI are planning something big in Kashmir.

                                Kashmir on edge as admin calls off Amarnath yatra due to terror threat.

                                Be prepared to operate extra flights from Srinagar to fly out tourists, Yatris if needed, DGCA tells airlines

                                Save your sons, stone-pelters die as terrorists, Army tells J&K moms

                                Why don't these twats just fcuking die.

                                Pak Army Landmine, American Sniper Rifle Found In Amarnath Yatra Route: Army

                                Confirmed Intel of Pak Trying to Disrupt Amarnath Yatra; Landmines, Sniper Rifle Found, Says Army

                                The PA and the ISI deserve to be sent to the gas chambers, Nazi style. Fcuking dimwits.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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