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Thread: Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

  1. #121
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvishal View Post
    You're a cute snowflake lmao
    I'm glad you finally get to enjoy your freedoms after the abolishment of section 377, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

    Kashmir comes under hind(Indian subcontinent), not arabistan(middle-east). Any arabistani who has a problem with the hind can go back to Arabistan. No ones stopping them.
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  2. #122
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Once you loose the legitimacy to govern, the definition of "own country" becomes quite skewed. India had already lost the Kashmiris about 2 decades back, now it just eroded it's own institutions tying the two together.
    I don't see this action as any different to integration of the princely states or Goa for that matter. The only surprise is how long it took. And once you realise this you wonder what previous administrations were thinking.

    Which kashmiris are you referring to ? the ones on the streets agitating or the silent majority that has to be silent or face death. No Indian journalist can safely report from Kashmir. The kashmiri media is pro separatist for their own security. Is this the voice that matters. No it isn't. These lost kashmiris comprise two districts. The rest mid and northern districts are quiet. These separatists will learn to deal with the situation or not. In any case they've been sidelined now. Their ability to raise funds curtailed and they will be forgotten.

    You asked a few years ago whether Modi sidelining the separatists was a wise decision ? i didn't know at the time but now i think it was the right decision.

    On the other side of things, I can totally understand the celebrations among the nationalists long wanting to apply the Chinese occupation of Tibet model in Kashmir. They're much closer in that direction.

    As for the Pakistanis protesting, they forget their own country did the same in Kashmir decades back. Now we truly have POK's counterpart IOK on the map. Its hard to argue against that fact.
    The only illegal occupiers are the Paks in PO J&K. Once the instrument of accession was signed it was game over and whatever provisions put in place were temporary, not permanent. We learnt that in India, temporary means close to seventy years.

    It seems whatever talks we have with the Paks are going to be about when they vacate the illegal part they occupy.

    Otherwise Kashmir as its known is off the table. Done.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Aug 19, at 18:57.

  3. #123
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/MehboobaMufti

    One more point to add. Abrogating 370 does not make accession null & void.

    If its unconstitutional go to the SC and challenge it.

    Everything the govt passes is open to challenge. Sidd certainly thinks so



    ------------------------------------------------------

    For some odd reason Prof Hari Om's twiiter account has been suspended. It was live only a cpl of days back

    Cached version here

    Hari Om has advocated for trifurcation.

    He has had an interesting history. Joined Congress in 2008 & then quit in 2012, after Cong & NC got into an alliance in J&K he accused Congress of selling out.

    Then he joins the BJP, BJP gets into a coalition with PDP. He then accuses the BJP of betrayal. The BJP kicked him out in 2015.

    He's on his own now.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Aug 19, at 00:31.

  4. #124
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Article 370 hasn't been abrogated but the constitution of J&K has now been replaced by the Indian constitution

  5. #125
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I don't see this action as any different to integration of the princely states or Goa for that matter. The only surprise is how long it took. And once you realise this you wonder what previous administrations were thinking.
    The difference in Goa was, it were the Portuguese who were the occupiers and the local population hostile towards them. Somewhat similar situation in Hyderabad with the Nizam overseeing a pro-India population.

    In Kashmir, it is nothing like the above but rather the opposite.

    The other Princely states, each had their own unique situation, events and terms.

    Which kashmiris are you referring to ? the ones on the streets agitating or the silent majority that has to be silent or face death. No Indian journalist can safely report from Kashmir. The kashmiri media is pro separatist for their own security. Is this the voice that matters. No it isn't. These lost kashmiris comprise two districts. The rest mid and northern districts are quiet.
    In my opinion, that's a stretch. There are the ones on the streets agitating and there is the silent majority which sympathizes with them. I have yet to find many Kashmiris who call themselves Indians, save for the tiny upper-class rich elite who anyhow are far more liberal and westernized rather than having any actual affinity for India or its current conservative identity.

    Not to forget mentioning, the small group of pro-India leaders representing that small group sit under house arrest as we speak.

    Rigging the elections in the late 80s was one thing, completely scrapping their constitution and legislature a whole another.

    You asked a few years ago whether Modi sidelining the separatists was a wise decision ? i didn't know at the time but now i think it was the right decision.
    Seperatist politicians don't matter much when you sideline every mainstream politician and the entire Kashmiri population.

    The only illegal occupiers are the Paks in PO J&K. Once the instrument of accession was signed it was game over and whatever provisions put in place were temporary, not permanent. We learnt that in India, temporary means close to seventy years.
    Does it not matter what exactly were the conditions in that instrument of accession?

    Temporary means 70 years? Where is that stated anywhere? Seems like an arbitrary decision and goes to show the fragility of the Indian constitution and the sham of a democracy it purports.

    It seems whatever talks we have with the Paks are going to be about when they vacate the illegal part they occupy.

    Otherwise Kashmir as its known is off the table. Done.
    I don't recall when Kashmir was ever on the table. Doodh and kheer, Kashmir and cheer... You know all that propaganda we all grew up with..
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  6. #126
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    In Kashmir, it is nothing like the above but rather the opposite.
    How do you know ? i watched programs on Lok Sabha tv over the last few years and what i heard there was very different to what i hear on private channels.

    Here is one case in point

    https://twitter.com/Ibne_Sena

    That guy was threatened like with a gun and had to seek govt protection.

    So you see how any one with a pro india sentiment is treated.

    No, we are not standing it for it any more. Quite frankly the country is fed up with what goes on there. The communal politics that is the norm is coming to an end. They are not going to discriminate against the rest of us any more.

    Why is this hill state so backward compared to another hill state like Himachal.

    If these people could keep the peace and grown like other states then this would not have happened. NO, their politicians screwed it up and made the wrong choices.

    In my opinion, that's a stretch. There are the ones on the streets agitating and there is the silent majority which sympathizes with them. I have yet to find many Kashmiris who call themselves Indians, save for the tiny upper-class rich elite who anyhow are far more liberal and westernized rather than having any actual affinity for India or its current conservative identity.

    Not to forget mentioning, the small group of pro-India leaders representing that small group sit under house arrest as we speak.

    Rigging the elections in the late 80s was one thing, completely scrapping their constitution and legislature a whole another.
    If people are against India i'm not surprised. What has India been able to do for them ? Not much development is there.

    Why is there no development because you have agitators that screw with governance. The goal is to make any Indian attempt fail. Who are these people. Wouldn't it be better to just bypass them.

    They agitate and then bring force down on them. What is India to them ? nothing

    Well, they are about to find out without a dysfunctional govt for a change

    I'm optimistic that things will get better there now.

    Seperatist politicians don't matter much when you sideline every mainstream politician and the entire Kashmiri population.
    I trying to answer the question you posed years ago. From today.

    Mainstream politicians there are useless. Good riddance.

    We tried the kid gloves they didn't take it so now we use other means.

    Does it not matter what exactly were the conditions in that instrument of accession?

    Temporary means 70 years? Where is that stated anywhere? Seems like an arbitrary decision and goes to show the fragility of the Indian constitution and the sham of a democracy it purports.
    Temporary means not permanent. That it went on this long is the point i was trying to make.

    We lose a soldier for every two militants taken out. We have been extremely careful in terms of collateral damage. No HR violation charges can stick in this case. They can hype things up as much as they want but nobody's biting.

    We try to follow rules that only mad people would follow.

    This country is too damn righteous.

    For too long the charge has been we continue to manage the problem instead of tackling it.

    We have done our utmost to molly coddle these people.

    Time's up. It was a bold decision. Pro minority. Definitely pro women because 35A has been taken out too.

    Continuation of the status quo, a relic dating back to 1846, was making a mockery of who we are and what we stand for.

    Those muslims are going to learn to live with us like the remaining 200+ million in the rest of the country.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Aug 19, at 22:41.

  7. #127
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    An idea going around is this move was precipitated by the Americans wanting to leave Afghanistan. This would leave Afghanistan to the Paks and a stronger J&K was the need of the hour. The only people mostly affected by this move are the politicians not the people.

    The annulment of article 370 will ensure that local politicians do not compromise on security & safety of the people of J&K and India by extension.

    Last edited by Double Edge; 05 Aug 19, at 23:53.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    How can you occupy your own country ? - Naftali Bennett

    J&K is an integral part of India -- J&K Constitution

    Now believe it!

    Why trifurcation of J&K is essential | TOI (blog) | Aug 05 2019
    As an Indian expat, I always felt that the difference between the Israeli occupation of Palestine and Indian control of Kashmir was that the Kashmiri's have always been citizens with full rights and freedoms as anyone else in the country.

    Which is why recent events are disturbing especially the way that it was carried out with no input from the Kashmiris; the arrest of the mainstream Kashmiri leaders like Omar Abdullah, the entire state put under lockdown, and the troop presence significantly increased. Scrapping Article 370 might be justifiable, but splitting the state seems like adding insult to injury.

    In the end the difference between a democracy and an occupation is the consent of those governed and until recently I always felt there were a significant number of Kashmiri muslims, perhaps a minority but a significant number who were invested or atleast could be persuaded to support a future in the Indian Union. But I fear now that Kashmir is heading for a future similar to Palestine, an angry alienated majority without full rights who are kept in line only by force.

  9. #129
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Bharat approves. I think most security analysts will be positive about this move given upcoming events. That along with an appetite to hit inside Pakistan shows we are being proactive about security. Let's see what the geniuses in Rawalpindi cook up next.

    Article 370 is finally history; now need to stiffen national resolve to brush off US (and other Western) pressure | Security Wise | Aug 05 2019

    This is the first substantive good and correct step relating to national security that Prime Minister Narendra Modi has taken in an otherwise bleak 5-year record in office of seemingly endless series of misconceptions of national security, and equally serious misreadings of the regional and international reality, resulting in patently wrong foreign and military policies and diplomatic missteps that have progressively weakened India and its geostrategics. But re: 370 Modi has done the right thing, and has to be lauded for it.
    Oh wow : D

    There were a lot of historical tid-bits revealed by some of the speakers in Parliament, especially the RSS ideologue and BJP nominated MP Rakesh Sinha, most importantly that Lal Bahadur Shastri contemplated trashing 370 in 1964 not long after Jawaharlal Nehru’s death in May that year. But one must be aware of the political thinking behind Nehru’s decision to stop the Indian Army’s push to Muzzafarabad and thereafter to fully recover what is now PoK, which was followed by his most unfortunate decision to take the issue to the UN.

    But Nehru had, at that time, made a defensible political decision. The situation was this: With the India Army poised to retake PoK, Sheikh Abdullah told Nehru that were he to recover PoK, the Mirpuri-dominated population of that region aligning with the competitor Muslim Conference party would, in an election, vote against siding with India and create trouble, but that he, a “democrat” would ensure that his National Conference party would vote to stay with India. It convinced Nehru to terminate the military recovery of PoK and even to take the matter to the UN where, per Mountbatten’s advice, the Security Council would quickly decide in India’s favour; in thee event, killing two birds with a single stone. Nehru the gullible bought into this perfidious design of Britain. (Much of this is supported by archival material, see Prem Shankar Jha’s book — ‘Kashmir 1947’.)
    And that there is how we lost PO J&K

    The scrubbing of 370 has, among its other virtues, a realpolitik reason. By making Ladakh a Union Territory, Delhi can cultivate the shias of the Kargil region in order to influence the Hazara shias and the still majority shia population of Gilgit and Baltistan (G&B) in PoK — areas hosting Pakistan Army’s Forces Command Northern Areas. This will create a sort of shia equipoise in the larger erstwhile Kashmir territory vis a vis the dominant sunnis among the Punjab mussalmans of Mirpur (Mirpuris) and the Srinagar Valley, and making life that much more politically difficult for Pakistan in G&B.
    Nice

    How will Modi hold up under Washington’s full court press — because Trump will have to show his hand before Imran (read GHQ, Rawalpindi) delivers on the last mile, as it were? Besides brushing off pressure and threats of dilution of US commitments on the antique F-16-level technology etc that Modi seems enamoured by, the Indian PM will have to show that India means business.

    This last will have to be evidenced in the manipulation of the Indian hand in Afghan Taliban’s affairs. A section of the Afghan Taliban has been successfully courted and cultivated by Indian intel (just as it has done its sister outfit — the Tehreeq-e-Taliban Pakistan). These contacts will need to be activated to torpedo the US-Pak plan, to prove India cannot be ignored. But this will have to be done in tandem with making peace with Tehran, whom the Modi dispensation has seriously alienated, and to recommit to Chabahar and the connectivity projects linking up with Afghanistan, Central Asia and Russia.
    Fingers crossed on the under lined bit ; )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Aug 19, at 01:55.

  10. #130
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InExile View Post
    As an Indian expat, I always felt that the difference between the Israeli occupation of Palestine and Indian control of Kashmir was that the Kashmiri's have always been citizens with full rights and freedoms as anyone else in the country.
    Which should make Naftali's comment more striking and less polarising in an Indian context

    Which is why recent events are disturbing especially the way that it was carried out with no input from the Kashmiris; the arrest of the mainstream Kashmiri leaders like Omar Abdullah, the entire state put under lockdown, and the troop presence significantly increased. Scrapping Article 370 might be justifiable, but splitting the state seems like adding insult to injury.
    These guys aren't into half measures. Should J&K recover and i cannot see why it will not now, then in the future the possibility of statehood again is possible.

    Kashmir cornered resources and controlled, law, police and choice fund generating portfolios. Jammu & Ladakh were second & third class respectively. The Ladhakis will be celebrating for sure. Jammu now has more people than Kashmir due to militancy there.

    The next part is delimitation or redistricting, changing the number of seats. They will have a say just not the last one like in the past. They've showed they wanted to effect a demographic change themselves over there and turn into a total muslim state. How ? if opportunities are less in Jammu & Ladakh then the young migrate out leaving the area a retirement home. Well the centre has scotched those plans for good.

    In the end the difference between a democracy and an occupation is the consent of those governed and until recently I always felt there were a significant number of Kashmiri muslims, perhaps a minority but a significant number who were invested or atleast could be persuaded to support a future in the Indian Union. But I fear now that Kashmir is heading for a future similar to Palestine, an angry alienated majority without full rights who are kept in line only by force.
    this is Bharat's reply : )

    (All the gassy rhetoric in Rajya Sabha about J&K, as a consequence of the tabling of the’Reorganization Bill’, soon turning into another Palestine, or a South Sudan, or an East Timor, or whatever…is nothing more than fear-vaping by the opposition who, odds-on bet, know nothing about any of these places mentioned, leave alone their histories, whence their facile forebodings.)
    You make it sound like we've disenfranchised these people. Quite the opposite, we want them to go out and vote. The panchayat polls which the major parties foolishly boycotted had good participation. See the post earlier about Indian soldiers on poll duty and the kind of harassment meted out to them by the locals.

    They will enjoy even more rights now as the Indian constitution applies to the entire country. Triple Talaq too when it passes. Earlier the problem was the opposite, telling these people they were Indian but withholding the full deal.

    Wait for the next phase of operations which will be connecting with the people. If things go right they will see results. No way is Amit Shah doing this to create an even bigger headache. He has a plan. And if his plan up to this point is anything to go with then i'm betting on him

    Kashmir Checkmate: Amit Shah planned intricate political chess while his opponents were busy playing tic-tac-toe | Daily O | Aug 05 2019
    Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Aug 19, at 02:36.

  11. #131
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    About damn time! I have a feeling we're going after Pak posts in PoK next which helps the PA push terrorists inside India. With a little bit of jihadi planning & help from the PA, we'll probably see PoK merge with India in the not so distant future.

    Tronic, we still have the instrument of accession. So your arguments are baseless, whatever they are. India has not lost Kashmiris, a lot of Kashmiris serve in the IA forces, para-military, and the J&K's SoP. Kashmiris have more freedom than most Indians. Yep we have lost some Kashmiris, the agents of the PA and the ISI, they are free to migrate back to terroristan or get shot this time. India has had enough of the pest problem. India doesn't give any F what others think of what is an internal issue related to the country's sovereignty.

    Comparing Chinese occupation of Tibet to Kashmir? D!cks and hairy balls. The maharaja joined the Union. China forcefully merged Tibet. If we don't even attempt to read history, we should take up history lectures of the sub-continent.

    If we have to talk about UN resolutions, it was Pak, which should have vacated Kashmir first in 1948. They didn't as they knew the sufi nature of Kashmiris then, would want to join India. Those buggers have changed the demographics of PoK. Jihadi twats.

    I mean, who else wants a lesson in history and the terroristan army? Kashmir is the bogey that keeps the PA in power. Just like Bangladeshis, Pakistan Army is least interested in Kashmiris. The survival of the PA inside Pakistan depends on an imagined enemy, India. Jihadi *****. PA have been sponsoring terrorism in India for decades, this was coming for long.

    The Government of India doesn't show mercy to terrorists from the NE. GoI didn't show mercy to Khalistan terrorists & supporters during the hey days, and our forces went inside the Golden temple and killed those who picked up a gun. Some of us don't even see, how the ISI uses propaganda to give rise to shouts of freedom, that leads some innocents to death. Kashmiris are not fucking special, minorities are not fucking special. Everybody has equal rights under the constitution. Use it and move on in life. Pick up a gun, and get buried 6 feet underground. Only the state reserves the right to kill. Everything else is, collateral damage.
    Last edited by Oracle; 06 Aug 19, at 14:28.
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  12. #132
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    Rumors coming in -> US gives implicit nod to India's action in J&K

    Mind you, I am not for any approval from any country for a matter that is related to India's sovereignty. What can any country do? Sanction us? Hahahahaha. We lived through sanctions, and got stronger.
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  13. #133
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    Pakistanis are lashing out. The money that they earned from the rest of India's taxpayers money will not be going to them in any significant way from now on. Bloody shameless dynast.

    Government's decision on Article 370 as a "betrayal of trust": Omar Abdullah

    Arab wannabe's lashing out -> Article 370: Veena Malik trolled for disrespecting Indian Army; Mahira Khan says heaven is burning

    Some more Arab wannabe's like Mawra Hocane etc, who worked in Bollywood. They never criticise their terrorist army and the attacks it sponsors on India, now suddenly these F twats have found a voice. Go F yourself.

    India should ban visas for every single Pakistani. Not even medical visas should be given. We should treat enemy citizens as such. No more big-heartedness for citizens of a terrorist country.
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    Who was the occupier in 1947, and an occupier since then? Is it not Pakistan? Look how a failed, terrorist, illiterate state uses propaganda to keep itself afloat.

    Pakistani celebrities speak up against human rights violations in Kashmir

    Flock to Bollywood to earn money, then criticise India. Never criticise your terrorist army and the shithole country you belong to. You beggars are not going to earn even a single penny from India anymore. Anyone, any production house, any director, producer, anyone literally using Pak artists should be boycotted.
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  15. #135
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    How do you know ? i watched programs on Lok Sabha tv over the last few years and what i heard there was very different to what i hear on private channels.

    Here is one case in point

    https://twitter.com/Ibne_Sena

    That guy was threatened like with a gun and had to seek govt protection.

    So you see how any one with a pro india sentiment is treated.
    Only thing that tells me is how dangerous it is to be pro-India among an anti-India society.

    No, we are not standing it for it any more. Quite frankly the country is fed up with what goes on there. The communal politics that is the norm is coming to an end. They are not going to discriminate against the rest of us any more.
    You're saying a couple million Kashmiris in an isolated remote valley discriminate against a billion Indians by not accepting Indian hegemony? I don't condone violence but rather than punish the terror tap next door, the government finds it much easier to clamp down on the freedoms of Kashmiris.


    Why is this hill state so backward compared to another hill state like Himachal.
    Because the Himachalis dont live in a perpetual state of war or under the threat of the gun.

    If these people could keep the peace and grown like other states then this would not have happened. NO, their politicians screwed it up and made the wrong choices.
    So Modi will scrap their elected leaders and make their choice for them and it still doesnt sound like a foreign occupation to you. "These people" will now be ruled by "your government".


    If people are against India i'm not surprised. What has India been able to do for them ? Not much development is there.

    Why is there no development because you have agitators that screw with governance. The goal is to make any Indian attempt fail. Who are these people. Wouldn't it be better to just bypass them.

    They agitate and then bring force down on them. What is India to them ? nothing

    Well, they are about to find out without a dysfunctional govt for a change

    I'm optimistic that things will get better there now.
    Isn't the Indian parliament filled with rapists, murderers and crooks anyhow? Indian politics is hardly an example of functional politics yet the Kashmiris are the ones who cant be trusted.. I say they are still much better than the scumbag politicians in UP, but I get it, the scumbags in UP are "our" scumbags.. These Kashmiris, not so much..


    I trying to answer the question you posed years ago. From today.
    That question is redundant when the government decides to bypass all the Kashmiris, regardless if someone is separatist, pro-union or a commoner.

    Mainstream politicians there are useless. Good riddance.
    That's just a matter of perspective. From my perspective, the Indian government is useless because I see them as a Hindu government, by the Hindus for the Hindus; hence useless to the minorities. In the same manner, I can see why you'd think the same for the Kashmiri politicians as they consistently failed to seed the Indian narrative in the valley.

    We tried the kid gloves they didn't take it so now we use other means.
    Ofcourse, can try all means; Kashmiris are powerless in front of the Indian juggernaut. Time will tell if this solves the issue but I guess we both know, phase 2 is probably Israeli styled Hindu settlements in the valley. Like I said, government by the Hindus for the Hindus. I will be surprised if that is not the case.


    Temporary means not permanent. That it went on this long is the point i was trying to make.

    We lose a soldier for every two militants taken out. We have been extremely careful in terms of collateral damage. No HR violation charges can stick in this case. They can hype things up as much as they want but nobody's biting.

    We try to follow rules that only mad people would follow.

    This country is too damn righteous.

    For too long the charge has been we continue to manage the problem instead of tackling it.

    We have done our utmost to molly coddle these people.

    Time's up. It was a bold decision. Pro minority. Definitely pro women because 35A has been taken out too.

    Continuation of the status quo, a relic dating back to 1846, was making a mockery of who we are and what we stand for.

    Those muslims are going to learn to live with us like the remaining 200+ million in the rest of the country.
    Most of that to me is rhetoric.

    We are different people, different religion, different ideology so naturally I am opposed to every communal move this government makes against minorities; be they ethnic minorities or religious minorities (in this case, both).

    That said, I get your support for them as you share your world view with those in power and I suppose nothing in this world is static. I feel for all those who will be negatively affected but time will tell how history unfolds.
    Last edited by Tronic; 06 Aug 19, at 05:06.
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