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Thread: Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

  1. #91
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    David Devdas has been covering Kashmir for a while now. His takes don't sit easily with a lot of people. They disagree with him but have to grudgingly accept what he says

    To Kashmiris Who Grew up During the 1990s, India Was the Army | The Wire | Jul 08 2018
    I am from the region where AFSPA was applied and is still in force. Can Devadas tell me:

    Q. why I didn't feel humiliated or shook with fear every time I saw the para-military patrolling the streets?
    A. because I felt safe, and many others did. I could complete my tuitions and come home by 7 PM, and having those men with guns on the streets made me think.....oh shit I lived another day.

    Q. why, instead of the terrain being similar, NE though troubled, is returning to normalcy?
    A. because people were fed up. Fed up of the killings, of being dirt poor. Their aspirations rose seeing the developed parts of India.

    Q. why every author, sheds his crocodile tears for Kashmir, but not much for the NE?
    A. if not Pulitzer, then this type of articles get them noticed. Thekedars of the left wing.

    Everybody's plight is Kashmir because they say India is killing Muslims. No. India is killing terrorists who happen to be Muslims, Christians as well as Hindus and Sikhs. Some kashmiris support them, and as long as they support these proxies of the Pakistan Army, they will be found out and killed. America is doing this in Afghanistan-Pakistan and around the globe, I don't see any reason why India can't do the same in our own land. Everything else be damned. Who's going to stop us?

    These type of journalists peddle yellow journalism, the Mani Shankar/Barkha Dutt types', who's so indulgent in discrediting the forces and glamorising terrorism in Kashmir and by extension Pakistan that they can't see how often they get used against their own country. Life was difficult for me too when I was growing up. I had a choice. I took it. I chose to study, do things on my own merit, instead of picking up a gun. I know some people who went the other way, their obituaries came shortly in the newspapers.
    Last edited by Oracle; 13 Sep 18, at 22:00.
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  2. #92
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    These type of journalists peddle yellow journalism, the Mani Shankar/Barkha Dutt types', who's so indulgent in discrediting the forces and glamorising terrorism in Kashmir and by extension Pakistan that they can't see how often they get used against their own country.
    He's not in the same category as them.

    You must be familiar with Sushant Sareen. Well Sushant was the one who introduced him at the beginning of his book talk. You will not see more different thinking individuals on Kashmir. In fact Sushant thought pretty much the same that is until he read his first book. Previous article is about his second book.

    There was a Brigadier there who served right at the start in '89. He said he didn't understand what he was up against until his term was up three years later. David explains what the problem is. This is a man who is going to seriously challenge your thinking on Kashmir. He's had an uncanny knack for being right for some time now. The govt does not care to listen to him. Not this one or the previous.

    Reporting on kashmir these days is of two varieties pro separatist or pro state. There is no middle ground because it has become dangerous for journalists to report from there unlike earlier. When people there see what gets shown in the rest of the country they decided these journalists were not worth it. So reporting is done via the internet or telephone. This guy tries for that middle ground.

    The Brigadier also thought David didn't spend enough time talking about what was coming across the border. The reason David gave for that is the young there don't care about Pakistan or the Hurriyat. We ain't in the 90s any more. They seem to be in the Jamat Islami camp.

    Check out his articles and see what you think

    https://thewire.in/author/david-devadas
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Sep 18, at 08:51.

  3. #93
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    He's not in the same category as them.

    You must be familiar with Sushant Sareen. Well Sushant was the one who introduced him at the beginning of his book talk. You will not see more different thinking individuals on Kashmir. Previous article is about his book.

    There was a Brigadier there who served right at the start in '89. He said he didn't understand what he was up against until his term was up three years later. David explains what the problem is. This is a man who is going to seriously challenge your thinking on Kashmir. He's had an uncanny knack for being right for some time now. The govt does not care to listen to him. Not this one or the previous.

    The Brigadier also thought David didn't spend enough time talking about what was coming across the border. The reason David gave for that is the young there don't care about Pakistan or the Hurriyat. We ain't in the 90s any more. They seem to be in the Jamat Islami camp.

    Check out his articles and see what you think

    https://thewire.in/author/david-devadas
    I am familiar with SS, I don't actually agree with most of his points. As for Devadas, some of his articles from the link provided by you are:
    Arrogance and Miscalculations Have Weakened Modi's Hand in Kashmir
    The End of Burhan Wani: 'Capture' Rather Than 'Kill' is Better for National Security
    The Army Problem in Kashmir That No One Wants to Talk About

    Titles such as these, smells of urban-naxal sympathy towards their islamic terrorist comrades.

    Capture terrorists? What is he smoking? The para-military forces give ample opportunity to these local islamic jihadis to surrender and there have been casualties in the forces' ranks due to this surrender policy (personally I am not a fan of such policies). 'Kill' is the second and final option. He spent 3 decades in Kashmir, has he ever tried to put himself in the boots of the ordinary force personnel of what they go through? Someone is from Coimbatore, some from Alwar, some from Assam - these people have no beef in this fight, but they still brave their life with very little options that the state gives them and ensures national integrity. Indian security forces kill so that there isn't a bigger mayhem in metros such as Mumbai or Delhi. We sleep in peace exactly because our security forces fight it out in Kashmir. If talks were the answer, Kashmir would have been solved long back.

    There are overground workers of these jihadis in apple orchards and remote areas that help run this Pakistan Army terrorist syndicate. This writer has no basic idea of how terrorism ensures survival of the Pakistani Army. Living in Kashmir does not mean he knows shit all. Most Indian journalist know jack, and you want me to believe he has an extra-ordinary Kashmiri mind?
    Last edited by Oracle; 14 Sep 18, at 16:19.
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  4. #94
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I am familiar with SS, I don't actually agree with most of his points. As for Devadas, some of his articles from the link provided by you are:
    Arrogance and Miscalculations Have Weakened Modi's Hand in Kashmir
    The End of Burhan Wani: 'Capture' Rather Than 'Kill' is Better for National Security
    The Army Problem in Kashmir That No One Wants to Talk About

    Titles such as these, smells of urban-naxal sympathy towards their islamic terrorist comrades.
    See, what you're saying here is similar in sentiment to what Sushant would say. He did imply as much in his intro. So it surprises me you do not agree with a lot of what Sushant says. What do you disagree with Sushant on btw ?

    The only reason i've mentioned David here is because Sushant introduced him. That takes some doing. That ORF hosts this launch seals the deal for me. I've found their work to be very good as well as their analysts.

    Capture terrorists? What is he smoking? The para-military forces give ample opportunity to these local islamic jihadis to surrender and there have been casualties in the forces' ranks due to this surrender policy (personally I am not a fan of such policies). 'Kill' is the second and final option. He spent 3 decades in Kashmir, has he ever tried to put himself in the boots of the ordinary force personnel of what they go through? Someone is from Coimbatore, some from Alwar, some from Assam - these people have no beef in this fight, but they still brave their life with very little options that the state gives them and ensures national integrity. Indian security forces kill so that there isn't a bigger mayhem in metros such as Mumbai or Delhi. We sleep in peace exactly because our security forces fight it out in Kashmir. If talks were the answer, Kashmir would have been solved long back.

    There are overground workers of these jihadis in apple orchards and remote areas that help run this Pakistan Army terrorist syndicate. This writer has no basic idea of how terrorism ensures survival of the Pakistani Army. Living in Kashmir does not mean he knows shit all.
    We are only reacting tactically. We don't have a game that is influencing people there. Look at the casualties and you will find more of our own in that list than from across the border. Only one third was foreign from last year.

    Regaining hearts & minds we are not doing. That's his major thrust. He's bluntly called out how we squandered an opening Vajpayee created. That goodwill lasted till 2007.


    Most Indian journalist know jack, and you want me to believe he has an extra-ordinary Kashmiri mind?
    He reliably predicted the unrest of 2008, 2010 & 2016 without the state having the slightest inkling of what was brewing. He's characterised the differences between era's of militancy. The idea that he's a terrorist sympathiser is unfounded.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Sep 18, at 13:32.

  5. #95
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    If talks were the answer, Kashmir would have been solved long back.
    The problem for both India & Pakistan is Kashmir wants India out and Gilgit wants Pakistan out. A common thread running through both areas.

    Only Azad kashmir is happy with Pakistan, they are small and try to get GB to side with them to make their case larger with mixed success.

    So the Paks push their people into GB. We can't do that in Kashmir. Not yet any way.

    The ethnic makeups are different as well. GB is predominantly Shia which the Paks are trying to dilute.

    Kashmir is more Sunni which makes it more vulnerable to wahhabi style extremism. That sort of thing won't work with Shias.

    What surprises most Indians is this azadi thing when Kashmir has operated as a state within a state since Independence almost.

    Section 377 & 35A are as far as we go with autonomy and even then we want those removed

  6. #96
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    See, what you're saying here is similar in sentiment to what Sushant would say. He did imply as much in his intro. So it surprises me you do not agree with a lot of what Sushant says. What do you disagree with Sushant on btw ?
    I don't remember at this point in time, but next time you post a SS article, maybe I will point it out. I have found only one, whose views I agree 90% of the time, and he is Minhaz Merchant. If tomorrow he posts BS, I will call him out too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The only reason i've mentioned David here is because Sushant introduced him. That takes some doing. That ORF hosts this launch seals the deal for me. I've found their work to be very good as well as their analysts.
    I am an ordinary civilian like most here, reading, learning. My opinion is subject to change, if change happens. ORF is good, I don't debate that. Its individuals and their thinking, who without doing basic research on any particular subject start peddling news/opinions like SOAP opera, that I have a problem with. Things that I have said in this forum about terrorism -its causes, effects etc, I have had the same thinking since I was, well, 16-17 probably, and that is because I knew the thinking/ideologies of some of those people. I think a lot, not everything is correct, so I learn when someone points out the flaws in my thinking. I don't get paid to write my opinions here, so I don't peddle BS in the same tune every time. You must have realised, I have and continue to criticize both the Congress and the BJP. I only offer issue-based support. No individual is bigger than a political party, is bigger than the country.

    I introduce you to a platform (our thinking isn't the same, we argue a lot), doesn't mean every single individual will fall for your line of thinking. What is missing is independent thinking in India. Indians will baahhh, what their leaders baahhh. Very few people use their analytical and logical thinking abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    We are only reacting tactically. We don't have a game that is influencing people there. Look at the casualties and you will find more of our own in that list than from across the border. Only one third was foreign from last year.

    Regaining hearts & minds we are not doing. That's his major thrust. He's bluntly called out how we squandered an opening Vajpayee created. That goodwill lasted till 2007.
    Vajpayee created what exactly? And he got, what exactly, in return? You don't see the irony in that?

    Devadas said some Jamat company is influencing the generation X Kashmiris, right? And among many other things - winning hearts and minds etc? Kashmir & the NE gets a lion's share of development money from the Central Government, plus unaccounted money that the IB/R&AW uses to grease the palms of politicians & useless leaders etc in our side of the border, to keep things calm. No government since independence had a Kashmir policy, and when they did have something, they couldn't see the forest for the trees. Vajpayee gets mentioned by the left and the Pakistanis because they see him as a liberal who ate meat and drank whisky, and could have been persuaded to let go off PoK for a final settlement. Vajpayee tried that too, again what happened?

    Hearts & minds cannot be changed till the time the PA keeps channeling aid-money & fake Indian currency into Kashmir, and keeps Kashmir on the boil by the use of terrorists. That tap needs to be closed. No money, support for terrorists will fizzle out.

    What is needed in Kashmir is offensive 24X7 COIN ops, and continuous special forces hits across the border, whenever intel or satellite imagery picks up something. Suspend whatsapp/FB/Instagram/Telegram/Signal over there. Run a very strict routine for atleast 2 years, with massive infrastructure development. Use intel to find dirt on Hurriyat, Jamaat Company and everybody singing the tune of Pak, and send them behind bars. Tackle the narcotics problem peddled by the PA. See the change after 2 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    He reliably predicted the unrest of 2008, 2010 & 2016 without the state having the slightest inkling of what was brewing. He's characterised the differences between era's of militancy.
    I don't care what he's predicted, unless he comes up with Newton's 4th law that deals specifically with the menace of terrorism that comes from Pakistan. A kindergarten kid can understand that these same protests fizzled out after de-monetisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The idea that he's a terrorist sympathiser is unfounded.
    Show me his analysis of the continued support of terrorism by the PA. Show me his analysis of the reasoning of the PA to do so. He might not be a terrorist sympathiser, but he certainly is an idiot from the left cabal.
    Last edited by Oracle; 15 Sep 18, at 20:16.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The problem for both India & Pakistan is Kashmir wants India out and Gilgit wants Pakistan out. A common thread running through both areas.
    Who said Kashmir wants India out?

    Wasn't it their Maharaja who requested the GoI to save their ass in 1947 from tribal islamic marauders who came alongwith the PA to loot and rape them?

    Wasn't it Kashmiri Muslims, who the PA thought would rebel against the GoI if they capture Kashmir in 1965, but the opposite happened?

    There are some Kashmiris, I agree, who want India out. They had their chances in 1947 to migrate to Pakistan. Now, if we see them crossing the border, they'd be shot. This is the way it is, and they can thank Pakistan Army for this. They are the ones who grew to be influenced by Salafi Islamic teachings that KSA funded madrassas taught over the years. And the GoI, happily turned over cash to whoever in Kashmir spoke against the Government. They were treated with kid gloves. Some I said, paid agents of the PA. We still have the instrument of accession. Not giving an inch of our territory to a failed Islamic hellhole named Pakistan. We would rather sit it out until the day Pakistan falls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Only Azad kashmir is happy with Pakistan, they are small and try to get GB to side with them to make their case larger with mixed success.
    Make an account on Twitter and check out how happy people in PoK are. And what the hell is Azad Kashmir? This is what happens when people read and revere journalists like Devadas, because.....what(?)......yeah....he has 3 decades of experience living in Kashmir. Right.

    Where is the Indian Army's PoV, or they don't have one according to the leftists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So the Paks push their people into GB. We can't do that in Kashmir. Not yet any way.

    The ethnic makeups are different as well. GB is predominantly Shia which the Paks are trying to dilute.

    Kashmir is more Sunni which makes it more vulnerable to wahhabi style extremism. That sort of thing won't work with Shias.

    What surprises most Indians is this azadi thing when Kashmir has operated as a state within a state since Independence almost.

    Section 377 & 35A are as far as we go with autonomy and even then we want those removed
    Section 377 & 35A have to go someday. I can wait. And I believe India can wait too.
    Last edited by Oracle; 22 Sep 18, at 11:35.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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