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Thread: Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

  1. #781
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Alternative political party is need of the hour: Tarun Gogoi

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    J&K DSP arrested with two Hizbul terrorists

    This needs research and debate. Low-level Khalistani sympathisers in the administration too? And ties with Islamic terrorist groups? Well, we knew that since the 80s.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  2. #782
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Yes. I was centre-left my whole growing up years, then I got a job and moved to UK the first time. I thought why can't India be like this, developed. My thought process changed slowly. And I am now proudly centre-right, I will repeat it for the last time here, I am centre-right because of the - economy.
    So how is the economy doing exactly?


    Just to be fair, and also for all to know, I have defended Tronic many times here in WAB and in the Indian forum too, when far-right posters wanted to tear him apart.
    There ain't no Sanghi born that can tear me apart.. lol! Especially sitting behind keyboards with their scrawny asses typing away empty threats.. they don't have the balls..

    And the weak, unarmed, poor people which they do attack in India, they attack in a crowd or in a mob, otherwise they simply do not have the balls.. They are like a cheap, cowardice copy of Hitler youth..

    I have criticised Modi a thousand times, and Tronic knows it. Earlier, when Congress the fcuking corrupt party was in power, Tronic's views were centre-left, and mostly the debates were good. Now that the BJP is in power, Tronic's views echo that of far-left, like Arundhati Roy. And as such, everybody who supports some policies of the BJP is a Sanghi.
    How the hell am I far-left?? You know nothing about me, I would be shooting myself in the foot if I was far-left.. It would literally hurt the $$$ I rake in.. I am not stupid to be far-left but you can only say that because I raise my voice against stupid rabid religious nutjobs like the Sanghis.. all of a sudden anyone who criticizes Sanghis is a commie, nasal, Islamist, Khalistani or a Pakistani.. like bro, you're not even sure yourself what the hell I am.. half of the labels you put on me are like self-contradictory!
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  3. #783
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    So how is the economy doing exactly?
    Not good. Bad actually. Participate more here. Read my posts often when you have the time, you'd understand I am not a Sanghi or a far-right lunatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    There ain't no Sanghi born that can tear me apart.. lol! Especially sitting behind keyboards with their scrawny asses typing away empty threats.. they don't have the balls..
    True, but right now you're talking like one of them. This is the threat I get from far-right arses in Twitter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    And the weak, unarmed, poor people which they do attack in India, they attack in a crowd or in a mob, otherwise they simply do not have the balls.. They are like a cheap, cowardice copy of Hitler youth..
    True, and I have criticised it every time I have come across it. I, probably, am the first and the only Sanghi who eats beef.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    How the hell am I far-left?? You know nothing about me, I would be shooting myself in the foot if I was far-left.. It would literally hurt the $$$ I rake in.. I am not stupid to be far-left but you can only say that because I raise my voice against stupid rabid religious nutjobs like the Sanghis.. all of a sudden anyone who criticizes Sanghis is a commie, nasal, Islamist, Khalistani or a Pakistani.. like bro, you're not even sure yourself what the hell I am.. half of the labels you put on me are like self-contradictory!
    No, No and No. Discuss points on merit then. Put your arguments without calling DE and me as Sanghi, because we are not. Discuss anything you want here, with a sane mind, and I'll respond to you in the way we had our arguments before. And if you say, I started this name calling, then I'd like to apologize in front of everybody here, but, please make sure you respond to articles or anything in a decent manner. Prove that you are centre-left or a centrist or whatever is your political affiliation. I am also very much eager to debate killings in the name of cow, economy or whatever you want (done enough before, but will do again just for you). Just start it like a normal person who wants the discourse to go smooth, and it will be smooth.

    I want an inclusive India, one that respects all religions, views without prejudice people of different sexual orientations, justice for all, equality for all, every good shit under the sun for all. If you don't know something ask, I am from the state that has created NRC, I know the details from ground zero. Ask and debate.

    You're welcome!
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    3 terrorists killed in encounter with security forces in J&K's Pulwama

    How to make non-restriction work for India?

    Since some in India and the West want restrictions/ internet blockade to end, I too want this now. Open up access for Kashmiris and see violence shoot through the roof. Keep collecting all SIGINT, HUMINT as far as PA & ISI' interference goes in Kashmir. Another Pulwama happens, let the Indian Army march right inside PoK. This could actually work in our favour. Oh, also mail the proof collected previously to the champions of human rights starting with Illhan Omar, Pramila Jaypal and the likes. And when the liberal think tanks scream wolf, tell them what restricting internet was all about. That it was about controlling Pakistan backed terrorism and bloodshed.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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    Senior J&K cop arrested while ferrying 2 terrorists in Kashmir

    Why would someone risk life, limb and reputation? Money or money & sympathy for Khalistan? Damned times we live in.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  6. #786
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Errr.... No I didn't.. Your Sadhguru is a nobody to me firstly and secondly, he did not say Lucknow students, he said all students.. And you keep harping on about Lucknow as if some massive hooliganism happened there.. that state is being ruled by another right wing twat and his monkey, a religious nutbag who uses the police as his personal thugs against the people:
    Because one of the audience was asked where they came from and he spoke about Lucknow. Here you use the chance to bash Yogi. I listened to a talk his biographer gave. It was veryilluminating. 95% of english coverage on him is negative wheres its no where that high in the regional languages. Why ? agenda.

    They seem Yogi as a potential successor to Modi and are giving him the same treatment as they did Modi. For ten years all i heard was how Modi was a mass murderer and then the Supreme court exonerated him. He then becomes PM. Same PR campaign to malign him. Same with Yogi. In fact its agendas like these that get the english press bashed in India because the agenda is so obvious. More you bash them the stronger they become because even when you tell the truth nobody believes you.

    You just trashed your own credibility there. Not you i mean the english speaking media when it comes to Yogi. I would put them in the same category as CNN and Trump. CNN is hostile media when it comes to Trump. Russian media would be more sympathetic to Trump.


    So much violence was inflicted on students and normal civilians by the police in UP but you can only harp on about those students allegedly throwing stones at the police after they were caged in their campus and prevented from going on a protest march.. The students deny that they did stone pelting and blame it on right wing student bodies trying to stir sh!t up.. Makes sense, only people that benefit from that are the Modijis, Yogijis and their Bhakts like yourself.. this is why you ignore JNU, ignore police brutality, ignore that over 2 dozen people have been killed since the protests started but can only carry on about the positives of this law, the twat Sadhguru and the "illiterate students".. And you label yourself as a "non-partisan intellectual observer".. unbelievable man, does anyone actually buy your facade? You're just lying to yourself..
    Here you mix up what happened at JNU with CAA

    Haha, so now i'm a sanghi bhakt.

    Students cannot deny stone pelting when we can see videos of them doing just that behind the gates. Why were they denied permission to protest. Do they have a right to break the law ? you see to think so.

    There is no facade, i've been posting views & articles as i understand things happening in this country. All you can do is oppose.

    I pretty much have countered everything you've said and more.. Heck, I've even exposed your Sadhguru for his hypocrisy.
    No, you've done no such thing. All you've pointed out is him admitting he has not read the bill. As if that invalidates everything he says after. It does not.

    Your only resort is to re-paint your right wing government's actions as if to make it seem like they've just been misunderstood.
    I'm just skewering oppositions agendas wherever i see them. Explained 370 & CAA which you entirely reject. You're not here to learn, you're here to oppose and push their agenda. Not working.

    If you're a Sanghi, be an openly proud Sanghi.. what you do is sly, deceptive and sleazy tricks..
    Name calling which i do not need to even bother to respond to. Just pointing out your tactics.


    What discussion?? What sweeping statements?? I am not making ANY sweeping statements but have very properly worded why I think you are being a sleazy, dishonest person because of your biased, one sided lies, selective postings and spin on every event happening against the government in India.

    I'm the only person who has brought legitimate points against these religious nutbags into this discussion and I'm the only one who is calling them out for the rabid fundamentalist extremists that they are..
    Look at the personal attacks he has hurled at me since he's joined this discussion, let me call it out

    First i was a govt agent, then when it was clarified i do not work for govt, that i should be getting paid by govt for what i said.

    Then i became a sanghi, then a bhakt, now I am a sleazy, dishonest person who tells biased, one sided lies. Where have i done that when explaining the govt's policy. I don't think i have misinterpreted or lied about what they they are doing. I'm giving it out straight as i understand from sources i follow.

    Since you cannot challenge anything, only disagree which means squat. Your disagreeing does not necessarily imply i'm wrong.

    So your only option is personal attacks. Character assassinations. Put me on the defensive.

    Personal attacks mean you have no ammo. Which makes you harmless.



    What character assasination?? I said that you're a Sanghi apologist, only based on your pro-Sanghi spin on all the events.. Stop supporting discriminatory religious extremists and I'll stop calling you out for that..
    In other words if i do not obey you will continue to abuse me. Go ahead. I don't care. You will only weaken your own position and solidify impressions people have of you based on what you write.

    I'm topic tracking here and adding to the discussion. All you're doing is opposing. Creating a noise. Whether it be 370 or CAA. This same nonsense is going on in the american section. Useless to understand US policy. We do a way better job here in the Indian section.

    If people want to know what's happening which is the primary purpose of this thread then people are not going to be listening to you.

    Find some real ammo then you will be contributing. Tell me where the govt is lying and make a convincing case of it. You've not done that to date.


    And this you say, right after your posse will start to call me a radical Sikh, Khalistani and if all else fails, a Pakistani.. lol.. and you will reply to their posts and call me a "red Liberal" and whatnot.. I feel like the word Sanghi is almost synonymous with Hypocrite..
    You are a liberal that means by definition you are going to oppose

    Who is my posse Tronic ? who have i directed to abuse you. The people who abuse you also abuse me elsewhere. But then i spar with both sides so this is to be expected.

    Some think you are a Khalistani but i've not seen that from you yet.


    Funny thing is.. Sanghis will try to put themselves in the same club as Trump, Netanyahu or any other right wing party/leader in the world to try and have some sane legitimacy.. what they really fail to see is that you are more similar to the Jamaat-e-Islamis, or the discriminatory Mullah regimes in the neighbourhood rather than Trump because as rabidly messed up Trump is, he still managed to lift the US economy while the rabid Hindutvavadis drove it straight into the ground like your typical uneducated third world religious nutbag regimes..

    Trump had the brain to not install full-retards into positions of power..
    But they do not vote for Trump or Tories when they live abroad. This is an odd thing. Majority of Indian origin votes in the west go to Labour or Democrats. Yet they loyally support Modi in India. Some one told me the default hindu position is liberal.

    The bolded bit about Modi not putting the right people into office is in line with pro govt commentators, Nalapat in particular. The slam is he retained a good amount of people from the previous govt instead of outright purging them. He's been timid about dealing with the bureaucracy. They expected Modi to be more assertive but it seems the bureaucrats beat him back. This part is not clear. If he pisses them off they will do the same thing as happened to Morsi. Bring the country to a stand still. People complain and that means Modi is on his way out. So Modi picks his battles carefully.

    So when he says he wants to target corruption, what does have to show for it ? where are the big fish.

    He can't do anything because tabs are kept and if he attacks people then his people will also get attacked because no one side is cleaner than the other. This is a stalemate.


    No, that's great! But it's only job half done..

    We want the appeasement to radical Hindus stopped and all radical Hindu douchebags kicked in the nuts and out of power..
    The radicals are not in power, they are the ones sloganeering. The centre will throw them a bone every now & then to shut them up. You are getting worked up by these nutjobs and generalising every one on that basis. It's like any who supports Modi or Trump must necessarily be bad and linked to the radicals.


    What bullsh!t is this? I can post a hundred videos of your hate-filled party leaders talking sh!t about Muslims, including your Party's president.. Let me know and I'll get right at it.. because your party is quite openly anti-Muslim and Islamophobic.. what bullsh!t is it to say that "people say this is Islamophobic"... People don't need to say anything, your party is not shy of being Islamophobic.. their main fan support base is Islamophobic, that is where they derive their die hard support base from.. you know all this shit.. you're just being a sleazy liar again..
    Just look at Kashmir and you will understand the radical agenda that has been at play there for decades. What have the abdullas & muftis done about it. They come to Delhi and say one thing and then return to Srinagar and say another. See, with this govt all this crap is not only been called out but being dealt with. A few people throw stones in Kashmir and all of a sudden the perception is created that all of Kashmir is anti-India. This is the nonsense that is being called out.

    I said no appeasing radicals. You are trying to twist that into anti-muslim. 75% of muslims have accepted the Ayodhya judgement. The remainder will have to come to terms with it.


    When he first got elected to power, I pretty openly said I support him coming to power just to see if he can truly elevate the country economically.. He failed that miserably and failing to do that, there is nothing positive about this douchebag..
    Then you look at it from a narrow lense of just economy. True, he was voted in by the young in 2014 on exactly that basis. They saw what he did in Gujarat and expected he could do the same for the rest of the country. My take of his handling of the economy so far is he had to fix what was broken. Sanjeev Sanyal mentioned the fiscal deficit was around 7% when he entered office and had to be reduced to 4%. This is not a painless operation. So he may not have made the economy boom as expected but he hasn't broken it either.

    Expectations of Modi is one area where even pro BJP have complaints about. Nalapat is probably in the lead here. Plenty of critiques which i find a good deal more potent than the usual opposition slams. Because i have no counter to what he says. Some people say he is selling out but that's not true. In fact there is always this risk when people who are pro BJP criticise the BJP. Prof RV has also made critiques but is more timid about it.

    You see the difference in how the stock market behaved. When he got the first term it rallied. When he got the second term it tanked. When the budget came out it tanked further. So the second term isn't being welcomes like the first one was. Should the economy not improve in 2024, Modi is gone or will be significantly weakened. People are not going to give them as long a rope as Manmohan got. If in two years people in Kashmir remain just as alienated or more so then Amit Shah will be in trouble. He could take Modi down with him. For now i'm betting on the home minister. PM's development is worth $10bn, that has to help.


    JNU issue precedes CAA but they are not a seperate issue.. the government has been trying to forcefully put down dissent for a while now, we know that..
    I'm talking specifically abut CAA

    How about... NDTV? You like?
    Any more sources you follow or is that it.

    Other than Fox i would say every cable news channel in the US is like NDTV. Useless in helping me understand what goes in the US

    I like PBS and NPR.

    I prefer sources that are not rabid about the govt. Those are for people who hate the govt. I do not have this luxury and would prefer to be in sync with what they're doing, within reason of course.


    I can't waste my time countering every Sanghi.. especially a Sanghi who admits he hasn't even read the act, so he's not even sure what he's talking about except he's just there to support the Sangji government..
    I'm not familiar with Sadhguru so i went with what he said and found it aligned pretty much with what i understood from tracking the story.

    If it matters i remember him in a tv show over ten years ago bristling to the assertion that he was saffron. So he is not that.

    His lies about population statistics also turned me off where he claimed Pakistan had 20-30% Hindus after partition but in actuality the 1951 census, the only one after partition actually only put 3% Hindus in Pakistan.. so I know he is just a pointless Sanghi liar.. and he covers himself good by saying, "I'm not exactly sure, don't have the exact figure but...." The dude is just another sleazy Sanghi taking people for a ride..
    Finally, we have one point of contention. Why didn't you just say this straight away instead of bashing him and going off on some diatribe. Numbers he mentions are in the ball park from what i've heard from numerous commentators including our rep at the UN. Please do listen to all of it and in particular 3:50



    3:50 This is a country that has shrunk its minority population from 23% in 1947 to 3% today

    Tell me Tronic, is our rep at the UN also a pointless Sanghi liar ?

    Give me more. It is not pointless. You should be listing out every thing you find erroneous. We will both learn.

    You've been AWOL from this place for so long you've forgotten how we do things here : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jan 20, at 17:31.

  7. #787
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Red State in India means communist/socialist which I'm sure you weren't trying to imply here but still just to clarify that economically, socially and in pretty much every other manner, Canada is a much more capitalist and open market economy than India which follows protectionist policies to the T. So in that manner, India is the "red state" in terms of government policies and lack of economic and social freedoms from a Canadian's perspective.. Cheers!
    Red state in the US means conservative. This is not the same in Canada. That was what i wanted to convey by saying red state.

    India does follow protectionist policies. India is mercantilist not capitalist. Modi is no free trader

    Thing is all developing countries grew with high tariff barriers including the US.


    You were more objective back then because the Sanghis weren't in power and it was a Congress government.. You've pretty much sold out to the Hindutva dream today..
    Simple point being made is you are resorting to exactly the same tactics nay going further that you once defended me from : )

    Cheers!

  8. #788
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    The call for a new political party to push out BJP is gaining momentum among protesters since the All Assam Students' Union (Aasu) made such a proposition recently.
    Glad you can laugh. Maybe it means you do not take it seriously.

    Should I ?

    Already they're gearing up for 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Senior J&K cop arrested while ferrying 2 terrorists in Kashmir

    Why would someone risk life, limb and reputation? Money or money & sympathy for Khalistan? Damned times we live in.
    Both!

    A senior police officer, posted with the strategic anti-hijacking team at Srinagar airport, was arrested along with two terrorists whom he was ferrying in a car in Kashmir Valley, a top police officer said here on Sunda
    Holy crap !

    This is the difference when Law & order for J&K reports to the Home minister instead of Mufti or Abdulla

    One of the militants has been identified as a top commander Naveed who was a police constable in 2017 and had decamped with four rifles from Budgam. He has been involved in police and civilian killings and threatening orchardists. 17 FIRs have been registered against him. He is the district commander of Shopian and 2IC of HM commander Riyaz Naikoo,” Kumar said.
    So one of the terrorists was a cop too !!!

    A corrupt cop in cahoots with an ex-cop

    Great!
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jan 20, at 18:31.

  9. #789
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    It means your whatsapp will be snooped on

    Israelis have the know how. But is it scalable ?

    To give you have idea how far we have to go..

    We are afraid of the internet. The Americans use the internet to hunt terrorists.

    Since some in India and the West want restrictions/ internet blockade to end, I too want this now. Open up access for Kashmiris and see violence shoot through the roof. Keep collecting all SIGINT, HUMINT as far as PA & ISI' interference goes in Kashmir. Another Pulwama happens, let the Indian Army march right inside PoK. This could actually work in our favour. Oh, also mail the proof collected previously to the champions of human rights starting with Illhan Omar, Pramila Jaypal and the likes. And when the liberal think tanks scream wolf, tell them what restricting internet was all about. That it was about controlling Pakistan backed terrorism and bloodshed.
    Not in favour of people losing lives to prove a point.

    We will have to open up slowly. SMS has been allowed recently i heard.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jan 20, at 18:33.

  10. #790
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I, probably, am the first and the only Sanghi who eats beef.
    Nah, you're not.

    Think Tronic's sanghi detector is not working right : D

  11. #791
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    You're just playing dumb again.. Those people are a glimpse of India's millions who still live under crushing poverty.. Nevermind the fact that you don't have to be that poor to still not be able to make the NRC list.. there have been retired veterans of the Indian army who ended up being declared stateless because they could not produce enough documents to satisfy the authorities, a large part of the problem being the poor state of document and book keeping by the authorities themselves..
    Already noted & posted earlier

    Yes, all of that gets shown; infact the toilet drive was like on every major news channel including BBC. What else gets shown is how effective or ineffective these policies have been. Unlike Sanghis who only care about Modijis own image, the rest of the world will only look at the people still needing to be saved and elevated.. This clown wants a pat on the back for implementing populist schemes? Funny, the same Sanghis were slamming the UPA government for being too "socialist" for doing the same..
    So much for a centre right govt, eh

    Oh, they understood alright. 7 years ago, India was being championed as a heavyweight contender against China.. Until the Sanghis happened and drove the economy into the ground, recalibrating Western expectations from India.. This man made speeches of making India a superpower by 2020 but the only thing he's worked towards is making India a medieval Hindutva nation hyphenated once again with Pakistan..
    Can you substantiate the underlined bit ? i don't think this has happened at all.

    India remains the only country in Asia that can counter China without having to be in an alliance.

    India has a unique position in the global power structure. We are the only major outpost of the 'Western Democratic Order' in Asia

    India is the USA of Asia


    So say the Sanghi Modi Bhakts..
    40% of the electorate according to the general election last May

    "Shamed and hounded" by Sanghis is actually quite a compliment.. No one cries in a corner when a bunch of rabid Islamists or Sanghis start hounding anyone.. it actually is reassuring that we are on the right side of history..
    They won't get listened to in India is my point which would be against their objectives

    You want to compare Indian poverty with American or Canadian poverty?? You are seriously delusional and goes to show how much you actually give a sh!t about your own countrymen.. Selfish and pathetic really..
    No, just spare me the crap. There's poor people in those countries too.

    India has changed a lot in the last few decades. This ain't the 70s any more.

    And I'm glad that India will be a $5 trillion economy but get with reality.. there are 1.3 billion people in India and you are currently a $2.6 trillion economy.. Canada's population is like 37 million and its a $1.6+ trillion economy.. Let that sink in first.. India has ways to go and wanking off to wet dreams while trying to brush reality under the carpet won't take you there.. dealing with real issues like uplifting your poor neighbours will get you there rather than trying to distinguish and nitpick between their religions.. Tired of Sanghis with false delusions of grandeur.. You do the biggest harm to India and it is due to these medieval Sanghis that India is regressing back to the stone age..
    And how big were we in 1990 ? think and think again


    See, the problem is the same.. I can't sit here and try to counter your points, then counter all the BS videos you post one by one because that is a futile exercise which will never end.. now I have an actual job and am not on anyone's payroll.. I merely come to voice my angst against all the bullsh!t Sanghi politics and counter your points when you raise them up yourself.. that said, I'll write a reply to that video as well just to make you happy, since we go way back.. you gonna have to wait for that though.. my time comes expensive so consider it a gift.
    heh, given your input here compared to mine i'd say it was the other way around.

    Anyway feel free to concede

    Here are a 100 retired civil servants which are also calling these acts as totally discriminatory and are calling for protests against these acts:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scr...caa-nrc-or-npr

    I can also post 100s of detailed articles and videos, leaving you to open and give some clumsy narratives as to why they don't make sense and why what the Sanghi Islamophobes in Delhi are doing is totally benevolent but then it's a waste of time because we both know the reality..
    Why weren't you doing this right from the start ? No, you had to abuse us first !!

    26. Nitin Desai IES (Retd.) Former Secretary and Chief Economic Adviser, Ministry of Finance, GoI
    30. K.P. Fabian IFS (Retd.) Former Ambassador to Italy
    37. Wajahat Habibullah IAS (Retd.) Former Secretary, GoI and Chief Information Commissioner
    43. Najeeb Jung IAS (Retd.) Former Lieutenant Governor, Delhi
    56. Shivshankar Menon IFS (Retd.) Former Foreign Secretary and Former National Security Adviser
    60. Shiv Shankar Mukherjee IFS (Retd.) Former High Commissioner to the United Kingdom
    81. Shyam Saran IFS (Retd.) Former Foreign Secretary and Former Chairman, National Security Advisory Board

    i'm familiar with these names and a few of them i see on shows on a regular basis. Mukherjee & Fabian are always interesting to listen to on RSTV. Fabian i joke will make a good bond villain. The man just looks evil : D

    But none have spoken on this matter in public.

    . Your fears have been compounded by the contradictory and confusing statements made by spokespersons of the Government of India on the implementation of the National Register of Indian Citizens (“NRIC”)
    Agree!

    While the Census collects information about all residents of India without listing their names, the NPR is a list of names of all those who have lived in India for over six months, regardless of their nationality. A Population Register will contain the list of persons usually residing within a specified local area (village/town/ward/demarcated area).
    This is known. Last NPR was done in 2010 already

    The NPR 2020, unlike the NPR 2010, asks not only for the names of the parents of the resident, but also seeks to also record their dates and places of birth. A person who is not able to furnish these details for his/her parents or, for that matter, for himself/herself, could well be classified a “doubtful citizen”.
    ok, bear in mind the underlined bit. Tell me why is it not possible to list your place of birth & date of birth. Also understand this won't be verified for the NPR bit.

    The 2003 amendments to the 1955 Act (vide Sections 3 (b), 3 (c) and 14A) and the consequent introduction of the 2003 Rules seem to indicate an undue obsession about illegal migrants, without any factual basis. We fail to understand the need for a nationwide identification of “illegal migrants”, which is what the NRIC in effect amounts to, when census statistics over the past seven decades do not show any major demographic shifts, except in certain pockets in some areas of North-Eastern and Eastern India adjoining our neighbouring countries.
    Agree. If Assam is so hell bent on this thing then let them have it. NRC i mean.

    We are apprehensive that the vast powers to include or exclude a person from the Local Register of Indian Citizens that is going to be vested in the bureaucracy at a fairly junior level has the scope to be employed in an arbitrary and discriminatory manner, subject to local pressures and to meet specific political objectives, not to mention the unbridled scope for large-scale corruption.
    True

    The Assam NRC exercise has thrown up the dangers of such a large-scale exercise: lakhs of citizens have been made to spend their life’s savings running from pillar to post to establish their citizenship credentials. Worrying reports are already coming in of people in different parts of India rushing in panic to obtain the necessary birth documents. The problem is magnified in a country where the maintenance of birth records is poor, coupled with highly inefficient birth registration systems. Errors of inclusion and exclusion have been a feature of all large-scale surveys in India, the Below Poverty Line survey and the Socio-Economic Caste Census being prime examples. The recently completed NRC exercise in Assam has been equally error-ridden and has led to major discontent. Indeed the State Government itself, with the BJP in power, has rejected its own NRC data, an extremely ludicrous scenario.
    All true

    The provisions of the CAA, coupled with rather aggressive statements over the past few years from the highest levels of this government, rightly cause deep unease in India’s Muslim community, which has already faced discrimination and attacks on issues ranging from allegations of love jihad to cattle smuggling and beef consumption.

    That the Muslim community has had to face the brunt of police action in recent days only in those states where the local police is controlled by the party in power at the centre only adds credence to the widespread feeling that the NPR-NRIC exercise could be used for selective targeting of specific communities and individuals.
    Unfortunately also true. Better communications would have alleviated the clashes but i think people were instigated into it.

    Added to the inconvenience that the NPR would put the common person through is the unnecessary expenditure on the NPR exercise, when data which is now to be gathered is already available through the Aadhaar system: these include name, address, date of birth, father/husband’s name and gender. Most Indian citizens are already covered by Aadhaar. The purpose of gathering a lot of the additional data (over and above the Aadhaar details) is unclear and will only give rise to the reasonable apprehension that the bona fide citizen could be enmeshed in an interminable, costly bureaucratic exercise if his/her citizenship status comes under doubt.
    That is what people believe so the object of the exercise has to be made clear. Note that i'm referring to NRIC here. NPR will be done along with the census so isn't a big deal.

    I don't have a defendable position on NRIC as yet.

    Our group of former civil servants, with many years of service in the public sphere, is firmly of the view that both the NPR and the NRIC are unnecessary and wasteful exercises, which will cause hardship to the public at large and will also entail public expenditure that is better spent on schemes benefiting the poor and disadvantaged sections of society. They also constitute an invasion of the citizens’ right to privacy, since a lot of information, including Aadhaar, mobile numbers and voter IDs will be listed in a document, with scope for misuse.
    Agree

    The Foreigners (Tribunals) Amendment Order, 2019 (issued on 30 May 2019) has unnecessarily stoked fears that Foreigners’ Tribunals can now be set up on the orders of any District Magistrate in India and is the precursor to a widespread exercise to identify “illegal migrants”. While the central government may contend that there is no such intention, it was surely impolitic, given the prevailing atmosphere in Assam and elsewhere, to issue such blanket orders delegating powers for constituting Foreigners’ Tribunals. The experience with Foreigners’ Tribunals in Assam has been, to put it bluntly, traumatic for those at the receiving end. After running the gamut of gathering documents and answering objections to their citizenship claims, “doubtful citizens” have also had to contend with these Tribunals, the composition and functioning of which were highly discretionary and arbitrary. Consequently, a number of citizens lost their lives in the quest for affirming citizenship or have had to suffer the indignity of incarceration in detention camps.
    In other words govt with such a large PR machine to win elections seems woefully wrong footed when it comes to introducing this policy

    There have also been media reports, not denied by the Government of India, that orders for setting up detention camps have been given to all state governments. We are frankly bemused by the Prime Minister’s recent statement that no such camps are in existence, when reports have documented the construction of such camps in states as far apart as Goalpara in Assam and Nelamangala in Karnataka and the intention to construct a detention centre in Navi Mumbai in Maharashtra. The Government of India has not come out with any statistics to show that the “illegal migrants” problem in India is so severe that it requires the large-scale construction of detention camps all over the country.
    Who's briefing him then

    We have our grave reservations about the constitutional validity of the CAA provisions, which we also consider to be morally indefensible. We would like to emphasise that a statute that consciously excludes the Muslim religion from its purview is bound to give rise to apprehensions in what is a very large segment of India’s population. A formulation that focused on those suffering persecution (religious, political, social) in any country in the world would not only have calmed local apprehensions but would also have been appreciated by the international community.

    In its current formulation, the CAA does not even mention the word “persecuted”, probably because using this word in the context of Afghanistan and Bangladesh would have marred India’s relations with these countries. Given that the Government of India has powers to grant citizenship after a migrant has completed eleven years in India, it would be instructive to know whether the Government of India has cleared all pending cases of “illegal migrants” till end-2008. Since the discretion to grant citizenship and to exempt individuals/groups from the purview of the Passport Act, 1920 and the Foreigners Act, 1946 lies entirely with the Government of India, this discretion could have been exercised on a case by case basis by the Government of India without any need to go through the exercise of the CAA and mentioning specific communities from specific countries.
    Underlined bit is a common critique. Now why do these civil servants not explain why India refused to and still refuses to sign UN convention on refugees 1951 ?

    Let the SC deal with the constitutional questions. The join commitee report does mention this and explains why it won't be a problem, that is according to the argument put within by the Law Ministry

    What has given rise to grave apprehensions about the intentions of the Government of India has been the rash of statements by Ministers of the Government of India in recent times, linking the NRIC and the CAA. The Prime Minister’s statement at a public meeting in Delhi on 22 December that the CAA and the NRIC are not linked contradicts the averments of his Home Minister on repeated occasions in various fora. In such a welter of conflicting and confusing utterances, it is hardly surprising that the ordinary citizen is left bewildered and is overcome by unknown fears, more so when government has not entered into any dialogue on this issue. At a time when the economic situation in the country warrants the closest attention of the government, India can ill afford a situation where the citizenry and the government enter into confrontation on the roads. Nor is it desirable to have a situation where the majority of State Governments are not inclined to implement the NPR/NRIC, leading to an impasse in centre-state relations, so crucial in a federal set up like India. Above all, we see a situation developing where India is in danger of losing international goodwill and alienating its immediate neighbours, with adverse consequences for the security set-up in the sub-continent. India also stands to lose its position as a moral beacon guiding many other countries on the path to liberal democracy.
    True and motivated parties have exploited this. That is my contention. Fear & hysteria has been created and very quickly.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Jan 20, at 00:22.

  12. #792
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Because one of the audience was asked where they came from and he spoke about Lucknow. Here you use the chance to bash Yogi. I listened to a talk his biographer gave. It was veryilluminating. 95% of english coverage on him is negative wheres its no where that high in the regional languages. Why ? agenda.

    They seem Yogi as a potential successor to Modi and are giving him the same treatment as they did Modi. For ten years all i heard was how Modi was a mass murderer and then the Supreme court exonerated him. He then becomes PM. Same PR campaign to malign him. Same with Yogi. In fact its agendas like these that get the english press bashed in India because the agenda is so obvious. More you bash them the stronger they become because even when you tell the truth nobody believes you.
    Successor to Modi?? Wow, thanks for clearing that up.. At least you do make it pretty clear where his allegiances and biases lie.. So I wasn't wrong about him at all..

    You just trashed your own credibility there. Not you i mean the english speaking media when it comes to Yogi. I would put them in the same category as CNN and Trump. CNN is hostile media when it comes to Trump. Russian media would be more sympathetic to Trump.
    Stop trying to compare with Trump's aversion to CNN as if in India it's anything alike.. the Indian media is quite squarely sold out to anyone in power, save for the select few channels.. even Fox news is like a million times more objective than your mainstream Indian media which quite recently, every major Indian news network was exposed for agreeing to take money to plant fake stories. There is no parallel here at all..

    And neither is this government that "freedom of speech" friendly that they will take criticism lying down... India isn't America.. you speak against the government in India, the state machinery kicks into overdrive to shut you up. Last I checked, India just became the country with the highest internet blackouts in the world.. More than Iran, Syria or any other oppressive regime save for maybe North Korea, where internet is almost non-existent.. that's quite some company!

    Students cannot deny stone pelting when we can see videos of them doing just that behind the gates. Why were they denied permission to protest. Do they have a right to break the law ? you see to think so.
    Arrest the ones who were pelting stones.. They were denied permission because the government is oppressive, not because they were violent at all.. Southern states where BJP does not rule show hundreds of thousands of students protesting peacefully.. Only where the BJP rules, you see students being shot and beaten by the Police.. why such a stark contrast? The students claim that the BJP student bodies are used to create a ruckus which then the Police uses as an excuse to clamp down on the protestors with excessive force. I believe them..

    And you keep mentioning Lucknow, but we have Hindutva ABVP cowards storming a university and beating up unarmed students with weapons, yet why do you feign ignorance at that moment?


    First i was a govt agent, then when it was clarified i do not work for govt, that i should be getting paid by govt for what i said.

    Then i became a sanghi, then a bhakt, now I am a sleazy, dishonest person who tells biased, one sided lies. Where have i done that when explaining the govt's policy. I don't think i have misinterpreted or lied about what they they are doing. I'm giving it out straight as i understand from sources i follow.

    Since you cannot challenge anything, only disagree which means squat. Your disagreeing does not necessarily imply i'm wrong.

    So your only option is personal attacks. Character assassinations. Put me on the defensive.

    Personal attacks mean you have no ammo. Which makes you harmless.
    How am I "assassinating" your character by calling you a right-wing government apologist when you yourself are saying that all you try and do here is try and explain the government's policies.. Your government lies and yes, you too have misinterpreted facts by pushing the same lies here when all the evidence suggests otherwise.. and then when I post international news sources, sources who do not have a dog in the fight, to further my point, you brush them off as biased as if it's some conspiracy to malign this Hindutva government.. I mean, even the UN has spoken against GOI's oppressive crackdown its carrying against its own students!

    And if I am so harmless, you can simply ignore me.. don't have to jump through so many twists and turns to try and defend your indefensible government..



    In other words if i do not obey you will continue to abuse me. Go ahead. I don't care. You will only weaken your own position and solidify impressions people have of you based on what you write.
    Give me another word for Sanghi if you find that abusive then.. and that's fine, I am not concerned about "weakening my image".. I'm pissed at dirty third world right wing politics, my image is just fine.. thanks for the concern..

    I'm topic tracking here and adding to the discussion. All you're doing is opposing. Creating a noise. Whether it be 370 or CAA. This same nonsense is going on in the american section. Useless to understand US policy. We do a way better job here in the Indian section.
    What you're doing here is narrative building for one political party, the BJP.. US section is objective, your posts here are all biased and propaganda. Anyone can just subscribe to Modi's Twitter handle.. he also directs people to the same links that you're doing here.. like that biased Yogi who you yourself now state may be the successor to Modi..

    If people want to know what's happening which is the primary purpose of this thread then people are not going to be listening to you.
    Good, I hope they don't listen to me because I don't pretend to be fully informed unlike you. As long as they take my posts as warning signs about your biased propaganda and go online to do their own independent research using credible international and non-biased sources, my job here is done..

    Out of time.. will respond to rest later..
    Last edited by Tronic; 12 Jan 20, at 21:06.
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
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  13. #793
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Not good. Bad actually. Participate more here. Read my posts often when you have the time, you'd understand I am not a Sanghi or a far-right lunatic.



    True, but right now you're talking like one of them. This is the threat I get from far-right arses in Twitter.



    True, and I have criticised it every time I have come across it. I, probably, am the first and the only Sanghi who eats beef.



    No, No and No. Discuss points on merit then. Put your arguments without calling DE and me as Sanghi, because we are not. Discuss anything you want here, with a sane mind, and I'll respond to you in the way we had our arguments before. And if you say, I started this name calling, then I'd like to apologize in front of everybody here, but, please make sure you respond to articles or anything in a decent manner. Prove that you are centre-left or a centrist or whatever is your political affiliation. I am also very much eager to debate killings in the name of cow, economy or whatever you want (done enough before, but will do again just for you). Just start it like a normal person who wants the discourse to go smooth, and it will be smooth.

    I want an inclusive India, one that respects all religions, views without prejudice people of different sexual orientations, justice for all, equality for all, every good shit under the sun for all. If you don't know something ask, I am from the state that has created NRC, I know the details from ground zero. Ask and debate.

    You're welcome!

    Then you support the wrong people and political ideology if you want an inclusive country.. Anhow, I do not oppose you like I do DE because, unless I am wrong, you are not orchestrating a propaganda campaign for the BJP like DE here is doing.. I can easily discuss this with you privately in PMs.. DE I have to call out on this thread because I find him blatantly pushing a singular agenda..
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

  14. #794
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    DE I have to call out on this thread because I find him blatantly pushing a singular agenda..
    It's simple, i follow the govt in office that makes policy and gets to declare war. Not the opposition.

    This means following sources that are sympathetic with the govt and have access not antagonistic

    Saves a lot of time and we get the facts fast. This is what people want to know.

    To be in sync with the govt of the day. Understand what they're doing. First.

    Not to get drawn into false campaigns and misinformation by the opposition.

    Same formula with other countries.

    That is a pro tip i can give you after ten years on this board.

    Now if it turns out previous takes were incorrect as a result of developments, then re-asess

    If more information comes out years later, same again.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jan 20, at 21:22.

  15. #795
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    But they do not vote for Trump or Tories when they live abroad. This is an odd thing. Majority of Indian origin votes in the west go to Labour or Democrats. Yet they loyally support Modi in India. Some one told me the default hindu position is liberal.
    This is important to address so I will quickly do so because its not the first time it has come up..

    Tories/Liberals = Canada
    Tories/Labour = UK
    Republicans/Democrats = US

    US, UK and Canada are very different in their political systems and the manner in which they vote. I can only speak of Canada since I am not that well informed about the US demographic electoral voting patterns and even less about the UK..

    In Canada, the immigrant vote, especially the indian ex-pats, is not fixed.. There was a time in the 70s, 80s and 90s when immigrants were pretty squarely voting Liberal but not so much anymore. In the last decade itself, the Indian votes went towards kicking out the Liberals and installing Stephen Harper's Conservatives into power prior to Trudeau's ascendance and once again just last year in Ontario, Kathleen Wyne's Liberals lost all their GTA seats as the immigrant diaspora largely voted blue.. Indian ex-pats are well represented as MPs on both sides of the aisle in Canada.. Its a blessing that we are voting on the governennts performance rather than religion, colour or xenophobia..
    Last edited by Tronic; 12 Jan 20, at 21:22.
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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