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Thread: Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

  1. #46
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    US tied our hands. Operation Brasstacks was to scare the Paks into stopping their support for Khalistan. We couldn't cross the border. Then the Sumdurong Chu incident occurs in '86 and you see Chinese collusion forcing us to divert forces to the NE. So we were up against the US & China.

    This is where KPS Gill comes in, we went brutal on Punjab. Then we had to do the same in Kashmir for a decade
    I thought Op Brasstacks was more about a 4th war with Pak at that point in time, to cut Pak into 1/2 by the armoured and mechanised columns of the Indian Army, as well as destroy Pak nuke facilities. Could be what you said too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    It is hogwash

    But if you listen above no less than Yashwant Sinha is peddling this line. A former foreign minister and RSS appointee that Vajpayee had to endure until he could get Jaswant in position

    If you listen to what he says. Not a single positive word to say about the BJP in that entire interview. Partisan much?

    Like a disgruntled former employee along with Shourie
    What might be Yashwant's frustation with the Modi led BJP government? He, Shatrughan Sinha, Arun Shourie have lost their mind. AS Dulat too. And many more.

  2. #47
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    What might be Yashwant's frustation with the Modi led BJP government? He, Shatrughan Sinha, Arun Shourie have lost their mind. AS Dulat too. And many more.
    They miss being in the limelight ?

    Dulat has a book out co written with his ISI counterpart so he has a good excuse. Dulat is the hardest one to figure out. Not so easy to impugn the pointy tip of the spear.

    He openly advocates that the PA chief be invited to India for talks.

    Dulat gets opposed for political reasons but i don't think his motivations are political.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    ???
    Heard on a program recently, can't remember which one now
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 May 18, at 19:34.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Heard on a program recently, can't remember which one now
    Even if India takes up this matter with the Chinese, they'd say that those arms were picked up from the black market. JeM is China's way of fighting India in Kashmir. And this incident of Chinese arms finding its way to the terrorists are not new, it has been the case since Khalistani and NE terrorists, and since decades. We need to pick our allies and put these guns to good use. 3 can play this game of death.

  4. #49
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    How JuD’s 7-tier team trains youths for war against India

    LUCKNOW: A Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) terrorist arrested in March has revealed that 26/11 Mumbai terror accused Hafiz Saeed + and Zakir-ur-Rehman Lakhvi are recruiting gullible boys under the aegis of their trust, Jamat-ud-Dawa (JuD), to wage war against India. Zabiullah alias Hamza, arrested during an anti-terror operation in Kupwara on March 20, said a seven tier-hierarchy looks after the two-year training of new recruits at seven locations, including a regional centre at Mudrike, forests in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and hilly terrains of Muzaffarabad.

    Hamza’s five associates were killed in the operation that also left three soldiers and two policemen dead. TOI has accessed his interrogation report prepared by the National Investigation Agency (NIA). “It’s an open invitation. JuD leaders openly invite boys from 15-20 age group of Pakistan to join ‘jihad’ and are willing to sacrifice themselves. They write down their names, address and phone numbers,” his confession reads.

    At the top of the seven-tier hierarchy is Saeed himself, known as Amir Sahab or Amire-Masgar. This is followed by instructors or recruiters at zonal, district, tehsil, town and sector levels. The instructors, called masools, are followed by “kakroons” at the lowest level. According to Hamza, the recruits are handpicked from madrassas by town masool and brought to the training centre of the LeT in Muridke in Lahore.


    In his case, he was picked by his father, who was serving as a town masool in Multan. He has also disclosed details of six training locations, called “maskars”: Tabooq in Mansehra (two months), Daiken (five months), Ambore (two months), Aksa (two months), Khaiber (two months) apart from Muridke. At each, army and ISI personnel are available for help. It is after this module both Lakhvi and Saeed make appearances.

    “In our case, during second training, in January 2017, Lakhvi visited the terrorist training camp at Daiken.” He has confessed it was at Ambor where Saeed appeared and “gave us hugs to motivate us against India” while the training focused on “route marches” on how to carry loads up to 25 kg on shoulders. The recruits were then sent to Karachi Food Centre in Muzaffarabad for a training in managing ration before the last module, “barfani training”, at Makhda.

    Here they are trained how to move in snow-clad areas. Hamza has revealed that LeT’s student wing, Al Mohammadiya Students, has prepared a mobile handset in which they put a chip and use it for communication between LeT members. If security forces can intercept the communication, the connection automatically terminates.

  5. #50
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    University of Ottawa brought the two together, plied them with whisky and made them talk

    An earlier paper

    Kashmir: Confrontation to Cooperation

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    University of Ottawa brought the two together, plied them with whisky and made them talk

    An earlier paper

    Kashmir: Confrontation to Cooperation
    Calling BS on the pdf.

    #1. First, let us assume Pak is serious to solve issues. Then, why does every peaceful move by India, end up with Indians dying through Pak sponsored terrorism.

    #2. Secondly, jobless ex-heads of organisations often meet up over a bottle of scotch to discuss peace overtures. This helps their ego to keep them relevant, reliving their days of cat and mouse games and gulping down peg after peg offered by the 'Aman ki Asha' brigade. Where were these same people, these Pakistanis, and what else did they do other than train and send terrorists into India to maim and kill Indians?

    Kashmir is Indian real-estate. It stays with India, by blood or by peace.

  7. #52
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    #1. First, let us assume Pak is serious to solve issues. Then, why does every peaceful move by India, end up with Indians dying through Pak sponsored terrorism.
    Paks are dead serious i suspect its we that are not

    There was, and still is, a fairly broad based belief in Pakistan that if the Kashmir question was not settled before improving other neighbourly ties with India, the latter would no longer be interested in resolving it
    India can play for time, for the Paks its running out. This makes them more frantic. And they are alone in this quest, nobody is interested to help them

    In some ways there is a similarity between our position and the Israelis vs the opposed


    #2. Secondly, jobless ex-heads of organisations often meet up over a bottle of scotch to discuss peace overtures. This helps their ego to keep them relevant, reliving their days of cat and mouse games and gulping down peg after peg offered by the 'Aman ki Asha' brigade. Where were these same people, these Pakistanis, and what else did they do other than train and send terrorists into India to maim and kill Indians?
    They make up part of Track 2 dialogues. Valid question though

    Kashmir is Indian real-estate. It stays with India, by blood or by peace.
    So we will maintiain our posture of strategic patience until such time a Pak leader accepts the status quo and ratifies it. Musharaf was one such leader but his establishment refused
    Last edited by Double Edge; 28 May 18, at 18:40.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Paks are dead serious i suspect its we that are not
    Really?

    Leaving aside past overtures by India, let me take the present BJP governments case.

    Invited Sharif for the swearing-in ceremony. Got Embassy blast in Herat 3 days prior to the swearing-in, by the Pak Army's pet group LeT. Landed down in Karachi for Sharif's daughters wedding, got Pathankot attack. It's the Pak Army that is not sincere. I have heard OOE repeatedly talk about the Pak Army's professionalism, heck, which professional army lost all wars, trains terrorists and lets them fight its war in Kashmir? Courtesy Zia. It's a bunch of islamic mercenaries, who are taught of their hate about a Hindu India right from the start of their military careers in Kakul. Let the Pak Army demonstrate peace first. The thing is, peace is not in the interest of the PA, and I am bored talking about it and it's reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So we will maintiain our posture of strategic patience until such time a Pak leader accepts the status quo and ratifies it. Musharaf was one such leader but his establishment refused
    Pak is ruled by the COAS with 8 corps commanders. Everybody (these 9) needs to agree. Many did not. It was Musharraf's failure, even as Army Chief to resolve the Kashmir issue. So I hope you can understand the islamism that has crept in their military ranks. They would gladly sell their country to the Chinese, screw their economy, invest in breeding more snakes, but they see peace with India as haram.

    That status quo with both sides sitting where they are and making the LoC an IB have become irrelevant after Musharraf. The Modi government claims all of Kashmir and rightfully so. My thinking is that we are just waiting it out, by absorbing the shocks that comes once or twice every week. We're paying for the real estate by blood, not interested in peace while Indians die every other day and so have upped the retaliation at the borders (LoC & IB).

  9. #54
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Really?

    Leaving aside past overtures by India, let me take the present BJP governments case.

    Invited Sharif for the swearing-in ceremony. Got Embassy blast in Herat 3 days prior to the swearing-in, by the Pak Army's pet group LeT. Landed down in Karachi for Sharif's daughters wedding, got Pathankot attack. It's the Pak Army that is not sincere. I have heard OOE repeatedly talk about the Pak Army's professionalism, heck, which professional army lost all wars, trains terrorists and lets them fight its war in Kashmir? Courtesy Zia. It's a bunch of islamic mercenaries, who are taught of their hate about a Hindu India right from the start of their military careers in Kakul. Let the Pak Army demonstrate peace first. The thing is, peace is not in the interest of the PA, and I am bored talking about it and it's reasons.



    Pak is ruled by the COAS with 8 corps commanders. Everybody (these 9) needs to agree. Many did not. It was Musharraf's failure, even as Army Chief to resolve the Kashmir issue. So I hope you can understand the islamism that has crept in their military ranks. They would gladly sell their country to the Chinese, screw their economy, invest in breeding more snakes, but they see peace with India as haram.

    That status quo with both sides sitting where they are and making the LoC an IB have become irrelevant after Musharraf. The Modi government claims all of Kashmir and rightfully so. My thinking is that we are just waiting it out, by absorbing the shocks that comes once or twice every week. We're paying for the real estate by blood, not interested in peace while Indians die every other day and so have upped the retaliation at the borders (LoC & IB).
    The bolded bit is what i mean by us not being serious. Right ?

    So when this becomes clear to the Paks they usually lash out, sometimes early some times later.

    Musharaf reached out more so we went as far as to even alert him there was an imminent threat to his life by JeM which he survived. Course that position wasn't tenable in his establishment but as dictator he could push it and then only so far

  10. #55
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Calling BS on the pdf.
    I didn't find much useful in the paper, its a summary of developments up to 2013

    How did Durrani get his son out of India in 2015 ? Dulat pulled some strings as a fellow Track 2 participant

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I didn't find much useful in the paper, its a summary of developments up to 2013

    How did Durrani get his son out of India in 2015 ? Dulat pulled some strings as a fellow Track 2 participant
    That's the only logical explanation.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The bolded bit is what i mean by us not being serious. Right ?
    As you say, Sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So when this becomes clear to the Paks they usually lash out, sometimes early some times later.
    Not entirely correct. Only Musharraf (amongst all Paks) can take this credit of trying, and failing spectacularly to solve the Kashmir issue. Even he couldn't figure out the Army he commanded. Nobody before or after him was even remotely interested. Conflict suits them fine. PA lives on blood and the dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Musharaf reached out more so we went as far as to even alert him there was an imminent threat to his life by JeM which he survived. Course that position wasn't tenable in his establishment but as dictator he could push it and then only so far
    Wrong move by high-morals, standard-setting, ethical Indians. As you sow, so shall you get screwed. The light at the end of the tunnel is not Gen Bajwa with a flashlight and a peace treaty, it's an incoming Jihadi train.

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  15. #60
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    US has no role in resolution of Kashmir dispute: Expert

    Is this the current State Dept policy as far as Kashmir is concerned?
    Another thought i've had about this is that we've not really changed our policy towards Pakistan about Kashmir since the 90s. So there isn't much for the US to do

    That is to say if we do change our policy, say become more aggressive towards Pakistan that the Americans could change their stance. What i'm saying is just because they don't say anything these days doesn't mean we have carte blanche to do whatever. If we get attacked that is one thing but lets say we decide to become more unilateral i doubt that would go down well

    https://youtu.be/nP3DOqhn4ak

    If you listen from 5min mark, she asks Dulat about a tit for tat policy and he thinks that isn't a good idea. If you employ terrorists to kill other terrorists say. This is from a previous book he wrote on Kashmir back in 2015

    The other point that was mentioned in that talk was if we up the stakes then it becomes a no holds barred contest, in other words our restrained reactions, very carefully calibrated act as a brake on how high or far the Paks can vertically escalate in response. This runs counter to what the Army chief said earlier. That if we escalate they would find it harder to counter because our force is more superior.

    Well, then why aren't we becoming more unilateral, could be Delhi still doesn't want to go down that route and prefers the same route we've been on since the 90s. Like most pols they are risk averse. The PA is not and can be more adventurous

    Surgical strikes and operation all out aren't very large departures from existing policy. They are meaningful but still limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Not entirely correct. Only Musharraf (amongst all Paks) can take this credit of trying, and failing spectacularly to solve the Kashmir issue. Even he couldn't figure out the Army he commanded. Nobody before or after him was even remotely interested. Conflict suits them fine. PA lives on blood and the dead.


    Wrong move by high-morals, standard-setting, ethical Indians. As you sow, so shall you get screwed. The light at the end of the tunnel is not Gen Bajwa with a flashlight and a peace treaty, it's an incoming Jihadi train.
    If only mushraf can take credit for trying then its even more justifiable that we looked out for his well being. What if he was taken out, this would have been in the early 2000s, we would have been saying he might have changed the way things are.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 29 May 18, at 20:07.

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