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Thread: Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

  1. #421
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Who wrote this article ? cache says Sanjay Dixit

    You managed to grab the article but why have they removed it ?

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    Last edited by Double Edge; 26 Aug 19, at 16:26.

  2. #422
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Who wrote this article ? cache says Sanjay Dixit

    You managed to grab the article but why have they removed it ?

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    It was there when I posted it moments back. Pak trolls must have complained about it. Medium is a site I don't like much to be frank, but that is a discussion for another topic. Pak trolls are hounding every truth, and getting people banned in Twitter etc, and sites and articles closed down. This is what the Nazis would do if they were in power now.

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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  3. #423
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Opinion is propaganda when they distort facts. I have asked a member of staff. Let's wait.
    Jihadwatch is a right-wing site; genocidewatch.com is thin on transparency and appears to be right-wing. Genocidewatch.com is right-wing for whom is the question. If it's right-wing white people, they would be bashing Pakistan, not India.

    Both are propaganda tools.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  4. #424
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    Hahahahahaha!

    There's one dude who fooled Rehman Malik too. OMG!!! Brainless jihadis.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  5. #425
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Who wrote this article ? cache says Sanjay Dixit

    You managed to grab the article but why have they removed it ?

    Name:  medium 410.JPG
Views: 14
Size:  19.0 KB
    Name:  Screen Shot 2019-08-26 at 21.41.19.png
Views: 15
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  6. #426
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    It was there when I posted it moments back. Pak trolls must have complained about it. Medium is a site I don't like much to be frank, but that is a discussion for another topic. Pak trolls are hounding every truth, and getting people banned in Twitter etc, and sites and articles closed down. This is what the Nazis would do if they were in power now.
    Funny thing its you that posted it, didn't think you'd have the stomach to see such a map.

    Why would the Paks complain about it. Is there anything factually incorrect. Is this some blatant Indian disinformation. I can't see it.

    That article is trying to explain the predicament using ideology but its gone over my head.

    Describes this as if it is some existential issue ? this is an odd one. I've heard people people say the same about India if Kashmir were for some reason given away. Idea of India will somehow unravel if we lose Kashmir.

    He does not say it but the comparison with '71 is as if Modi pulled off what Indira did in '71. With the stroke of a pen. Really ?

    Because the reaction in Pakistan is no less. I have trouble accepting this. The Paks never administered our side of J&K like they did East Pakistan. So why the big hue & cry now.

    So when Sheikh Abdullah was able to use his deception to carve out a separate status for J&K, Pakistan saw this as a validation of the Two-Nation Theory. That India had to accord a special status to its only Muslim majority State completed vindicated the Two-Nation Theory in the eyes of Pakistan and its establishment, and they could sell this snake oil to the Pakistani public. As the Pakistan dream kept fading, this spurious fantasy kept the public hooked to the dream of Ghazwa-e-Hind, and kept providing the Pakistan Military its essential life support from the public. When Pakistan came into being, it had got one seventh of India’ resources, one sixth of the area, one sixth of the population, and one third of its Army. This over bloated Army perfected the art of keeping itself relevant by becoming the protector of what is called Nazaria-e-Pakistan, which is nothing but an euphemism for the Two-Nation Theory.
    Special status a validation of two nation theory ? no, the basis to make a claim to J&K which btw has not gone away for them regardless of what we did or say is the validation of two nation theory. Therefore they will never stop claiming J&K.

    This complicated relationship among the various organs of the Pakistani establishment, and the Army’s self-styled role of protector of Nazaria-e-Pakistan has meant that it even espoused Jihad in order to pretend to fulfil the raison-détre behind the existence of Pakistan, i.e. conquer the Mecca of India from its stronghold of Pakistani Medina. The Army did try but failed, so it changed the narrative in its text books, spun all its defeats as victories.

    In the world view of Pakistani Army, a defeat in the conventional sense is not really a defeat. A defeat will happen only when it loses its anchor and will to fight.
    Chris has also said that in one of her book talks. To make peace with India is tantamount to surrender by the PA.

    When India rectified the mistake it made in 1949 by incorporating Art. 370, and scrapped its provisions, the Islamisation project has received a terminal jolt. After cleansing the Valley, the next project was Jammu. Even if India had offered J&K to Pakistan, they would have targeted other parts of India, because Two-Nation Theory ultimately seeks to end all plurality and diversity and make the whole world subservient to Allah.
    We've seen shades of this with attacks into Jammu. But why will they stop now ?

    Because that anchor is now gone with the scrapping of 370 provisions, and J&K is now reduced to a mere UT, Pakistan is facing an existential crisis. The Medina Project has suffered an irredeemable jolt. Two-Nation Theory is over from India. Medina Project is over from Pakistan. The Army does not have anything left to protect.
    Why ? if the idea of the Medina project is bide your time, become strong then attack Mecca or India why is this no longer possible just because special status was removed. Leave aside the practicalities of actually doing this. It has not been possible to do so for a very long time. Maybe its that realisation that has finally hit home decades later.

    Don't know <shrug>
    Last edited by Double Edge; 26 Aug 19, at 18:11.

  7. #427
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion that needs to be listened to carefully as it challenges the hype both positive and negative over the 370 decision. Challenges the rhetoric as well. Karan is the right person to be having this discussion as he asks follow up questions to clarify.

    I'm hearing yet another word now. De-operationalised. 370 has been De-operationalised. I don't like this word.

    The simpler explanation is the special status that J&K once enjoyed has been removed. Otherwise 370 remains as is.

    The professor does not think the SC will challenge the govts decision. This isn't 100% certain but observes when govts with strong majorities take political decisions the SC stays out of it. Will intervene in case of coalition govts and is very defensive about its jurisdiction.

    They will likely refer this to a constitutional bench where the matter will remain for another 3 to 4 years by which time any decision that comes out will be meaningless. So this is a fait accompli by Modi.

    The professor finds the celebrations as well as grief over this decision over stated. According to him nearly all of the indian constitution already applies in J&K since it has been diluted progressively over many years. So what Kashmiris are gaining or losing isn't significant. Now if the loss isn't significant their appetite to resist the govt automatically reduces. Any resistance will be political in nature rather than on the basis of some loss.

    He mentions the J&K constitution already included the words socialist & secular as early as 1956 or twenty years before it would appear in the preamble of the Indian constitution. Some of the J&K laws are more progressive than the Indian laws that will replace them. SC's & ST's in Kashmir had reservations already. We were told they had none. Rather its outsider SC/ST's that would not be eligible to reservations they enjoy in the rest of the country.

    He disagrees with Sunanda on the property issue. According to him no permanent resident of Kashmir ever loses right to land rather it is the spouse that can never become a permanent resident there. Should said spouse pass away then the permanent resident automatically retains whatever they inherited. There are other issues here that are not explained like whether children get inherit anything which isn't explained here.

    The fun part of this discussion is the realisation that Delhi's powers over J&K have reduced compared to earlier. Why ?

    With 370 it was easier for Delhi to
    - repeatedly extend President's rule in J&K compared to any other state
    - take over powers mentioned in the states list
    - impose emergency in J&K on grounds of internal disturbance
    - impose additional restrictions on freedom of speech compared to elsewhere

    In other words Delhi has lost more power over J&K rather than J&K as a result of losing its special status. Just as the video title says, it is the centre that has lost its special status over J&K than the other way around. 370 had sentimental value for Kashmiris but for the centre it conferred real power ie more power than possible over any other state. That's why Delhi held on to it for so long.

    Wow!

    I interpret this as a win for federalism and a win for J&K. Because Delhi could do all those things that too only to J&K before and not anywhere else in the country.

    Karan does end by asking if 370 was de-operationalised by presidential order then the possibility of its re-operation by a future dispensation in the same manner. The answer is surprising. He says he doubts a future govt would want to give special status. This contradicts what he said earlier. If removing special status reduced Delhi's powers then why would it not want to get them back. We don't know as Karan didn't ask him this obvious question.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 19, at 00:25.

  8. #428
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Jammu and Kashmir BJP defends restrictions in state after revocation of its special status | TOI | Aug 21 2019

    Can't trust outsiders you see. I guess those hindu settlements aka west bank are going to have to wait.

  9. #429
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Funny thing its you that posted it, didn't think you'd have the stomach to see such a map.

    Why would the Paks complain about it. Is there anything factually incorrect. Is this some blatant Indian disinformation. I can't see it.

    That article is trying to explain the predicament using ideology but its gone over my head.

    Describes this as if it is some existential issue ? this is an odd one. I've heard people people say the same about India if Kashmir were for some reason given away. Idea of India will somehow unravel if we lose Kashmir.

    He does not say it but the comparison with '71 is as if Modi pulled off what Indira did in '71. With the stroke of a pen. Really ?

    Because the reaction in Pakistan is no less. I have trouble accepting this. The Paks never administered our side of J&K like they did East Pakistan. So why the big hue & cry now.
    Dixit is right-wing. How much right? Well certainly more than me. He's taking historical facts, and goes to say the 2 nation theory died with the liberation of Bangladesh. It's true. Hindu India Vs Muslim Pakistan, this is bullcrap Pakistan has always peddled, right? Then why did the Pakistan Army go all racist and genocidal on the Bangladeshis? The same narrative holds true on Kashmir.

    If we go back to the 1947-48 war, and UN resolutions per se (not effective now, as UN resolutions were replaced by the Shimla Agreement), Paks had to vacate PoK first, India had to maintain limited in scale military presence to hold a plebiscite. Pak Army did not, as they knew they would be outvoted by the Shias and Hindus. Mind you, there was no option of independence for Kashmir.

    Kashmir is a strategic issue for India. It's existential for Pakistan. If PA loses PoK, G-B, PA's hold on Pakistan will completely be nullified. As about why the hue and cry now, when was the last time the Paks told the truth? They manufacture their youths into drug addicts, train them, then push them into India as cannon fodders. Anything, ANYTHING, against India, and the bread and butter of the Pakistan Army is guaranteed.

    Special status a validation of two nation theory ? no, the basis to make a claim to J&K which btw has not gone away for them regardless of what we did or say is the validation of two nation theory.
    This is what the PA thinks.

    Therefore they will never stop claiming J&K.
    They will, if Pak is broken up.

    Chris has also said that in one of her book talks. To make peace with India is tantamount to surrender by the PA.
    I've known it long before Christine or someone else said it, and I haven't read her books.

    We've seen shades of this with attacks into Jammu. But why will they stop now ?
    It won't.

    Why ? if the idea of the Medina project is bide your time, become strong then attack Mecca or India why is this no longer possible just because special status was removed. Leave aside the practicalities of actually doing this. It has not been possible to do so for a very long time. Maybe its that realisation that has finally hit home decades later.

    Don't know <shrug>
    It's a reputational loss for the PA. They can't fight a war and win, conventional or nuclear, yet they have to assure their jihadis and abduls that they are all powerful malik and will do something. And now, Indian security forces concentrate only on the disturbed areas, and areas from where infiltration occur.

    Expect trouble ignited by PA/ISI in Kashmir when restrictions are lifted. Also expect Pakistani terrorist attacks pan-India, and Pakistan getting spanked like a bitch in return.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  10. #430
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    FAKE ALERT: Photo from Gaza passed off as one clicked in Kashmir

    Not the first time Pakistan has done it. They sold and spread propaganda earlier too, but it has increased 100 fold after August 5.

    Under Imran Khan, Pakistan forced to defend Muzaffarabad: Bilawal Bhutto

    Lol.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  11. #431
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Name:  Screen Shot 2019-08-27 at 17.57.54.png
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    The above is just a picture, not a tweet.

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    1st Jihadi in US Congress?

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    Last edited by Oracle; 27 Aug 19, at 13:36.
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  12. #432
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Kashmir is a strategic issue for India. It's existential for Pakistan. If PA loses PoK, G-B, PA's hold on Pakistan will completely be nullified. As about why the hue and cry now, when was the last time the Paks told the truth? They manufacture their youths into drug addicts, train them, then push them into India as cannon fodders. Anything, ANYTHING, against India, and the bread and butter of the Pakistan Army is guaranteed.



    This is what the PA thinks.



    They will, if Pak is broken up.



    I've known it long before Christine or someone else said it, and I haven't read her books.



    It won't.



    It's a reputational loss for the PA. They can't fight a war and win, conventional or nuclear, yet they have to assure their jihadis and abduls that they are all powerful malik and will do something. And now, Indian security forces concentrate only on the disturbed areas, ..nd areas from where infiltration occur.

    Expect trouble ignited by PA/ISI in Kashmir when restrictions are lifted. Also expect Pakistani terrorist attacks pan-India, and Pakistan getting spanked like a bitch in return.
    Let me explain this the way i understand it. It's not an existential issue otherwise Pakistan would have dissolved itself after '71.

    It's a challenge to their belief system. What is that belief system. According to two nation theory people in muslim majority areas owe allegiance to them. Only Pakistan can be the legitimate rulers of said people. Only muslims may rule over muslims. Non muslim rulers are by default illegitimate and to be resisted.

    The 370 decision denies them any claim to the area in a definitive manner. No, Pakistan is not the legitimate ruler of J&K. We are.

    If you follow so far then the bolded bit becomes axiomatic. Unfortunately. Meaning it is inevitable they hit us in some broad spectrum way.

    We are seeing their diplomatic efforts presently, soon we will see the political push where they try to incite people to protest in any manner possible and progressing onto military where they attack via proxies.

    Because they have to defend their belief system. They are the protectors & defenders of Kashmiris. The Kashmiris for them owe allegiance only to Pakistan not India. Kashmir belongs to them, they rule over Kashmir despite having close to zero agency on the ground. And now India just usurped them.

    People say Trump ushered in a post truth world. Post truth means facts can be ignored. Truth is whatever you want it to be. I think Paks have been living in such a world for many decades now : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 19, at 15:33.

  13. #433
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    For a while i suspect some right wing ostensibly hindu posts to be ISPR trolls. Even more likely given who the target is here.

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    Very subtle but effective
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 19, at 15:25.

  14. #434
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Let me explain this the way i understand it. It's not an existential issue otherwise Pakistan would have dissolved itself after '71.

    It's a challenge to their belief system. What is that belief system. According to two nation theory people in muslim majority areas owe allegiance to them. Only Pakistan can be the legitimate rulers of said people. Only muslims may rule over muslims. Non muslim rulers are by default illegitimate and to be resisted.

    The 370 decision denies them any claim to the area in a definitive manner. No, Pakistan is not the legitimate ruler of J&K. We are.

    If you follow so far then the bolded bit becomes axiomatic. Unfortunately. Meaning it is inevitable they hit us in some broad spectrum way.

    We are seeing their diplomatic efforts presently, soon we will see the political push where they try to incite people to protest in any manner possible and progressing onto military where they attack via proxies.

    Because they have to defend their belief system. They are the protectors & defenders of Kashmiris. The Kashmiris for them owe allegiance only to Pakistan not India. Kashmir belongs to them, they rule over Kashmir despite having close to zero agency on the ground. And now India just usurped them.

    People say Trump ushered in a post truth world. Post truth means facts can be ignored. Truth is whatever you want it to be. I think Paks have been living in such a world for many decades now : )
    It's an existential issue for the Pakistan Army, not Al-Bakistan. Other than that, you and me understand each other very well.

    Btw, you said earlier in this thread, I am kinda a little too right-wing or something like that, but less than some doppleganger. What was going through your head?

    I've said it many times, and cleared the air, that I'm centre-right. Equality for all, malice for none. I support LGBQT rights. I support Indian Muslims right to eat beef. I eat beef. No appeasement. No extra perks for minorities. No privileges. No entitlements. Does that make me far right? All I'm asking for is equality before the eyes of the law, and the Indian Constitution. To stand up for the country, against Pakistani terrorism that has killed 1000s of Indians for over 3 decades and wounded 1000s. The wars imposed upon us by the Al-Bakistan Army. So, where am I wrong?
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  15. #435
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Earlier this month, defence minister Rajnath Singh had said if talks were held with Pakistan in future, they would be only on Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK).

    "Why should there be talks? On what issues there would be talks? Talks with Pakistan would begin only after it stops patronising terrorism. If talks begin, it would now only be on the PoK and no other issue," Rajnath Singh said.
    Ashley called this nearly two years back

    According to Dawn, an English daily in Pakistan, leaders from different political parties came together earlier this month to denounce the government's stand on Kashmir after India revoked its special status on August 5.
    Given that Nawaz, his daughter and Zaradari are in jail they have all gathered together to challenge the govt on this point

    The opposition parties in Pakistan have accused the Imran Khan-led federal government of 'selling out' Kashmir under an international conspiracy.

    "The present situation gives rise to fears that it might have been decided in Prime Minister Imran Khan's meeting with US President Donald Trump last month that Pakistan will keep silent if India decides to change the fate of Kashmir," one of the opposition leader Maulana Fazlur Rehman said.

    Rehman said the people of Pakistan and Kashmir are the victims of an international conspiracy and the government is a part of it.
    Heh, so that is the line the Pak opposition is taking
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Aug 19, at 15:53.

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