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Thread: Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Very good but i thought what the supreme court said applies to non-disturbed areas of the country. Kashmir and a good part of the NE are still under the disturbed areas classification.

    How are the CRPF to deal with these areas otherwise. Something doesn't make sense here

    Also consider judicial overreach is likely when the executive is weak. I wouldn't call the present executive weak.
    AFSPA applies to disturbed areas, and that is what the Apex court judgement was based on.
    Para-military deals with COIN ops in insurgency hit areas, CRPF does policing.
    The judiciary has been strong since the 2000s. The present executive is strong, but what I understand is that they do not want to go down a path where their laws/regulations/suggestions are shot down by the judiciary. Re loss of face.

    Shinde and Antony Must Not Get Away with Their Offences
    An article from 2015, that talks about loudness of the policy, with zero action on the ground.

    And, Junk the defensive mindset

  2. #17
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    Are we losing the Pakistan plot?

    The LoC is on the boil. India is retaliating to Pakistan firing, but, despite causing disproportionate casualties, it also loses valuable lives of soldiers. Fedayeen attacks hit army bases resulting in casualties. Pathankot was followed by Uri and now Sanjuwan. Over the years, Pakistan has been retaining the initiative and choosing the areas for infiltration, violation of ceasefire and locations for their fedayeen to strike.

    India has been hitting back, but attacks from Pakistan have not reduced. While we launch surgical strikes and cross-border operations employing our soldiers, always concerned about the mission failing and resultant casualties, Pakistan employs cannon fodder militants, with minimum training, without concern or even worried about their survival. They even refuse to accept their bodies, thus wiping their hands clean. They have no qualms for losses, while India has.

    Pakistan has never hidden the fact that it supports secessionist movements in Kashmir, backs the Hurriyat and openly enables Hafiz Saeed and other designated terrorists from collecting funds. It may internationally deny supporting terror groups, but even in the face of damning evidence, it continues. Militants infiltrating across the LoC cannot be coming from Mars -- they are clearly Pakistani’s and even carry Pak products with them.

    Indian politicians, including the maverick Mani Shankar Aiyar and those from the valley, continuously request the government to open dialogue with Pakistan. Every government in India has attempted the process soon after assuming power, only to be hit by either a wave of terror strikes or an incident like Kargil. The Pakistan army, which controls the state, decides foreign policy towards India, and has no desire for initiating dialogue with India. While the two National Security Advisers (NSAs) remain in constant touch, nothing changes.

    Post the Sanjuwan strike, the Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman released funds for the improvement of security infrastructure in military cantonments close to the IB and LoC. Thus, India has begun protecting its bases from militant strikes, more a defensive approach than offensive.

    Rarely have we considered viable alternatives to compel Pakistan to stop their activities. Our retaliation has remained the Pakistan army. Pakistan on the other hand targets innocent army families, knowing it would hurt the soldier as also villages along the LoC. The army is aware that the more militants it kills, more would attempt to cross -- a never-ending cycle of violence in the valley, now extending south into the Jammu belt.

    The nation stands by and supports the army as it goes about its task of ensuring national security and eliminating militancy, seeking to bring succour to the valley. It sheds tears whenever there are casualties and feels the pain of the families of those who sacrificed their lives. On the other hand, families of Pak militants may never be aware of their sons and brothers who have been killed in India and buried in anonymity.

    While we gloated over the surgical strikes, they had no major impact. Pakistan denied the same, hid their losses and went ahead as before. Hitting their defences and targeting their army have again failed to produce any result. We have been retaliating, causing more casualties, which their nation has never even known, as it remains subdued by their media. In each case, we employ our trained soldiers, while they launch militants, who have been brainwashed to die, which has never impacted them.

    The nation desires answers. Words of condolences, criticism of Pakistan’s actions and promising to make them pay are heard from the political leadership every time there is an incident. These now sound hollow. The army does its job, but would only small border strikes work, or should the government do more? Does the government have a strategy for dealing with Pakistan or is it moving in the dark, searching a wayout? Is adopting the defensive approach the answer or should we seek to make Pakistan bleed?

    While war is always an instrument of last resort, there could be other options. This would depend on how government perceives it could pressurise Pakistan. If militarily, then it could imply increasing the tempo of firing along the entire front, moving in offensive forces close to the LoC, imposing caution on Pakistan. The army is ready to escalate as it has the resources. If diplomatically, then it needs to devise ways to enhance the pressure on Islamabad, including blocking loans and grants to the nation. If economically, then it needs to push Pakistan into an arms race, which it can ill afford.

    The government think tanks and the National Security Council need to develop strategies and adopt what could finally work. It has been decades and all that the nation has heard from the politicians has been criticism and promises. The army has performed all its assigned tasks to the best of its abilities. It is time that there is a comprehensive strategy devised to counter Pakistan’s design or else the nation would continue reacting to their offensive designs.
    ORFonline

  3. #18
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    He's advocating for a comprehensive plan to deal with Pakistan at the strategic level.

    Since the 90s we've treated Pakistan as less important and to be politically managed. Hence the reactive stance. The reason for that is the Paks had the Americans on side by threatening to go nuclear. Once that point was crossed their hold over the Americans reduced. So then 9/11 happens and they become an ally against Al-Q. That leverage has also ended now.

    There isn't anything i can think of to stop us from adopting such a policy. It will mark a significant shift as we will be actively countering them on many dimensions. You could say the diplomatic component of such a strategy is already in play. Since 2016, we've moved to isolate them in the region. Got everybody we could to agree about counter terrorism in joint statements including China at the last BRICS meet. Latest victory is the FATF putting the Paks on the greylist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Heh, i've just paraphrased above what vivek's been saying elsewhere and for a while now : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Feb 18, at 09:28.

  4. #19
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    High time they did this

    J&K Police told to crack down on big militant funerals | IE | Feb 27 2018

    Intelligence wing says this will help curb fresh recruitment into militant ranks since ‘glamourised funerals romanticise and boost terror and terrorists’.

    Written by Bashaarat Masood | Srinagar | Updated: February 27, 2018 4:59 am

    Citing “glamourised funerals” of militants as a reason for recruitment of local youths into militancy, Jammu and Kashmir Police’s intelligence wing has asked the state police to take steps to prevent “massive and multiple” funerals of militants in the Valley.

    “The funerals of killed militants have become a fertile ground for recruiters,” reads a confidential report sent by the Inspector General of Police (IGP), Criminal Investigation Department (CID), to Director General of Police S P Vaid.

    The report states, “(The) massive gatherings that are being witnessed in funerals of killed local militants post-2016 unrest is a serious concern which has to be addressed…. These gatherings romanticise and glamourise the terrorists and give boost to militancy.”

    Citing many examples of young men who have joined militant ranks after attending the funeral of a slain militant, the report says that militants have been successful in glamourising militancy by appearing at such funerals and offering gun salute.

    The report, prepared two months ago, states: “It has been noticed that soon after burial of killed local militant(s), one or two local boys, who have participated in their funerals, join militancy. By giving regular appearance at funerals to give gun salutes, or to put forth their point of view/ideology, active militants have been successful in glamourising subversive activities. The massive turnout at funerals of killed terrorists is an indicator of the radicalisation level.”

    The report calls for keeping an eye on potential recruits living in the locality of the slain militant and the need to keep them away from such funerals. These youths, “who have inclination towards militancy”, should be called to the police station concerned and directed to remain there until the burial is over, the report suggests. “The process should be initiated while the encounter is going on.”

    The report mentions that after the massive funeral of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) commander Abu Qasim in South Kashmir in 2015, five local youths joined the militant ranks.

    “There has been considerable increase in the number of funeral prayers for killed militants in the Valley and gatherings thereof compared to previous years,” the report says. “When foreign terrorist Abu Qasim was killed in October 2015, multiple funerals were offered. Almost 20,000 people participated in his funeral and some militants also gave gun salute.”

    “After the killing of Abu Qasim, it was decided to bury killed foreign militants in north Kashmir in order to avoid major law and order problems,” the report points out.

    The report has suggested several measures to prevent such big funerals, gun salutes by other militants at these funerals, and to prevent recruitment of fresh militants.

    “After the killing of militant/militants, active militants give a gun salute… the miscreants consider it as an act of bravery and this works as an impetus for the local youth to join militancy,” it states. “Intelligence input should be generated about the exit routes of militants from such places and they should be chased and neutralised.”

    The report has also asked for making local religious preachers and mosque management committees accountable. “Local imams should be made accountable so that they desist from delivering charged/hateful speeches at funerals,” the report suggests. “(The) local auqaf committee should be taken into confidence so that they may not allow the public address systems of masjid to be used for provocative speeches at the funerals.”

  5. #20
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    Despite casualties, evacuations, Army to keep Pakistan under sustained pressure

    Unless the Generals are targeted, PA won't relent. Either way, IA is not losing this war of attrition.

  6. #21
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    The Supreme court ended the immunity enjoyed by the forces under AFSPA in 2016. Too much indulgent of the judiciary in matters of the executive does not bode well for the country.

    This is what the apex court had to say on July 8, 2016 in a landmark ruling, “It does not matter whether the victim was a common person or a militant or a terrorist, nor does it matter whether the aggressor was a common person or the state. The law is the same for both and is equally applicable to both... This is the requirement of a democracy and the requirement of preservation of the rule of law and the preservation of individual liberties.
    There is a stay until apr 24 on the basis that the officers in charge are soldiers and can't be tried as civilians which is what the charges filed apply to

  7. #22
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    The FATF action means Pakistan has to come up with an action plan by June. This plan must pass muster or Pakistan gets on the blacklist. So they have to come up with something concrete. This time FATF puts them in the greylist for terror financing. Quite specific unlike the last time where it was more general like money laundering. They are cornered by the world here. If the Paks thought the Americans were just going through the motions like in the past they were in for a rude shock as this time the americans were determined to get them on that list by ensuring China or the Saudis didn't get in the way. Getting into debt with China and finding it increasingly difficult to attract finance is going to be sobering. And US hasn't even started to use any coercive options yet.

    If financing for terror is reduced it will have positive effects across the board. Even though LeT doesn't target Afghanistan they are going to be impacted. This means whatever actions they take on Kashmir also get affected. While Pakistan has to wind down there we aren't sitting still, we are continuing with our efforts there so there is a double effect.

    Pakistan also has elections this year. If their politicians play to this FATF thing they are going to look weak. If otoh they speak up then they are defying international opinion on this matter which the press is going to be watching closely. So let's see what tune they play. The same applies to Rawalpindi as well.

    As for cease fire violations we need to ramp up shelling. Hit them when they're down until they realise their present course of action isn't getting them anywhere. And resist any international pressure for talks. On again off again talks achieve nothing. Just breaks a momentum that is already running smoothly.

    There is a fortunate confluence of events occurring that we need to capitalise on.
    - Much reduced domestic political interference in Kashmir or meddling from the centre. This policy needs to be continued.
    - Global financial pressure to curb terror financing on the Paks.
    - An aggressive militant policy in force since middle last year.
    - Separatist leaders sidelined and under investigation for finances.
    - Not much international concern about Kashmir.

    A year or more of this is going to set the Pak Kashmir agenda back big time. Amnesty to stone pelters is the right step. Engagement with the locals via an interlocutor could also be useful. More is necessary.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Mar 18, at 03:01.

  8. #23
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    If India has credible deterrence then why hasn't Pakistan been deterred from infiltrating as yet ?

    Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Mar 18, at 17:34.

  9. #24
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Remember Lt. Umer Fayyaz ?

    His murder catalysed the state into operation All out last June

    13 militants killed in multiple operations in south Kashmir | Hindu | April 01 2018

    Twenty persons, including 13 militants and three Army personnel, were killed as security forces launched “coordinated,” multiple operations in Shopian and Anantnag in south Kashmir on Sunday.

    At a press conference at the Victor Force headquarters at Awantipura, General Officer Commanding (GoC), 15 Corps, Lt. Gen. A.K Bhatt, said, “Among the slain terrorists, two were involved in the killing of Lt. Umar Fayyaz in May (of 2017). We have avenged his death.”

    Slain militants, Rayees Thokar and Ishfaq Malik of the Hizbul Mujahideen, were responsible for the abduction and killing of Lt. Fayyaz last year. Another slain militant Zubair Turay was involved in the killing of an SHO and a BJP leader, the police said.

    At a joint press conference of the Army, police and CRPF, Director-General of Police S.P. Vaid said the multiple operations were “initiated after the credible leads about militants’ presence.”

    The killings fuelled violent protests in large parts of the Valley, especially Shopian, Kulgam, Sopore and Srinagar. Hundreds of local people joined the funerals of the slain militants, which sparked fresh clashes in Shopian.
    They have patronage networks in place to have simultaneous protests whenever needed. All for the media. This story got repeated in numerous western outlets.


    Anti-India protests erupt in Kashmir amid deadly fighting | WAPO | Apr 01 2017

    At least four civilians were killed and dozens injured in the latest round of anti-India protests, which broke out after Indian troops launched counterinsurgency operations targeting mainly the southern parts of disputed Kashmir, where new-age rebels have revived militancy and challenged New Delhi’s rule with guns and effective use of social media.

    In recent years, Kashmiris, mainly youths, have displayed open solidarity with anti-India rebels and sought to protect them by engaging troops in street clashes during military operations against the militants. The protests have persisted despite the Indian army chief warning recently that tough action would be taken against stone throwers during counterinsurgency operations.

    So that's their plan whenever we go after militants and if its particularly successful then we will have these anti-India protests. Won't work. The operations will continue until these militants are rooted out

    The gunbattles — the deadliest this year in Kashmir — began overnight after government forces raided three southern villages following a tip that rebels were hiding there, police said.

    They said that after the government forces came under fire, the militants tried to escape from a security cordon while firing their guns and grenades but were killed in the ensuing fighting.

    At least 11 militants, including some commanders, were killed in two separate gunbattles in the Shopian area, while one rebel was killed and another captured in Anantnag, said top police officer S.P. Vaid.

    While eight of the dead militants were identified as local cadres of Kashmir’s largest rebel group, Hizbul Mujahideen, troops were still clearing off the rubble of a destroyed house at a third gunbattle site where bodies of three militants were lying, Vaid said.
    No doubt we got the right people.

    Top separatist leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said Sunday’s violence was “more havoc for Kashmiris, who are at the receiving end of execution and repression.”

    “Kashmiris will continue to die or be forced to pick up arms for resistance as long as India addresses the political and humanitarian problem of Kashmir through a military approach and through force,” he said.
    Why does anyone listen to this guy ? All four english newspapers in kashmir are pro-separatist. I don't think they have a choice but they serve a purpose

    Political & humanitarian problem is a nice scam to have money flowing into the the state in perpetuity. We have a rare chace to seriously dent this conspiracy so long as there is no political interference

    Separatist leaders who challenge India’s sovereignty over Kashmir have called for a shutdown on Monday against the killings.

    Pakistan condemned Sunday’s violence and expressed solidarity with Kashmiris.

    “This mindless killing spree exposes, yet again, the ugly, inhuman face of the state-terrorism that India has been perpetrating against the Kashmiris for decades,” Pakistan’s Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
    Naturally they call for a shutdown, anything to show they are relevant

    Why do the Pak's opinion even matter here ?

    Hah so rich, express solidarity with protesters who are protesting the killing of militants that have bombed and killed people in Kashmir.



    This channel's programs on Kashmir have been very clear
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Apr 18, at 01:22.

  10. #25
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    India, Pakistan revive Track II diplomacy

    Bug that can be squished is dictating terms. Spineless government.

  11. #26
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    India, Pakistan revive Track II diplomacy

    Bug that can be squished is dictating terms. Spineless government.
    Line going around is these are ploys to have a quiet year because Modi is getting ready for elections. The trip to China is being portrayed in the same vein

    Fly in the ointment is can we trust either of the two to keep to their side of the bargain : )

    Still, he can say if either reneges that he tried for peace and that will play well

  12. #27
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Nikita & Bulganin visit Kashmir in the 50s around the time CENTO was formed and decide to back India. Upto the late 80s, the Soviets covered us when we did anything in Kashmir. Funny how there was not too much trouble in Kashmir in those days

    Things change in 90s, Robin Raphel gets a mention. She apparently is responsible for the Hurriyat coming into being and warned us that we couldn't touch them. And today nobody in the west cares about Kashmir. This is the time to act and finish the problem once and for all. We couldn't do anything from the 90s onwards because we weren't allowed to, by the west



    212 offed last year, we're up to 56 this year

    Lifecycle of your average militant

    Phase 1 : Stone pelting

    Phase 2 : Becomes a militant

    Phase 3 : Gets on facebook

    Phase 4 : Dead!

    One of the panelists says JeM is China's baby. That weapons for militants in Kashmir could come from China in the future. No kashmiri leader has any bad words to say about China. Some may even be in collusion with China already
    Last edited by Double Edge; 08 May 18, at 21:25.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Line going around is these are ploys to have a quiet year because Modi is getting ready for elections. The trip to China is being portrayed in the same vein

    Fly in the ointment is can we trust either of the two to keep to their side of the bargain : )

    Still, he can say if either reneges that he tried for peace and that will play well
    China is not suicidal, Pakistan is and hence cannot be trusted.

    On confrontation

    Who is A. G. Noorani? Never read him in Indian press. He speaks separatists and the Pak Army's tone. With Indians like these, who needs enemies.

  14. #29
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    There is not the remotest possibility of militancy being crushed either; the entire populace supports it.
    Really ? that's not the impression i got from people who study the area in the LSTV videos above.

    This is the separatist line, the Hurriyat who've been sidelined since 2015 as per Modi policy

    He is upset about the way these two girls were treated over a visit. It's not about hate its just tit for tat.

    Otherwise we are slapped and then supposed to act civilised. This continues for a few cycles and then we offer them concessions. That nonsense is over

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Who is A. G. Noorani? Never read him in Indian press. He speaks separatists and the Pak Army's tone. With Indians like these, who needs enemies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._G._Noorani

    Well know writer, author, supreme court lawyer etc. You haven't heard of him because the current political climate isn't conducive to what he has to say

    What is your take on the Kathua incident ? there is a strange pattern i've noticed where people that were happy with Modi suddenly don't like him anymore because he took a full two days to respond. Too knee jerk emotional. Some thing about that incident makes me think its anything but the way it was reported. More like politically managed. Mr.Pai articulates my suspicions about it

    https://youtu.be/bUKOE97L2xI
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 May 18, at 00:04.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Really ? that's not the impression i got from people who study the area in the LSTV videos above.

    This is the separatist line, the Hurriyat who've been sidelined since 2015 as per Modi policy

    He is upset about the way these two girls were treated over a visit. It's not about hate its just tit for tat.

    Otherwise we are slapped and then supposed to act civilised. This continues for a few cycles and then we offer them concessions. That nonsense is over
    He and many others (BDutt, SGhose etc) like him are Pak Army spokesperson in India. They get hyper-active when the terrorism fuelled narrative of the Pak Army starts getting a beating. Everything that he writes is from the propaganda script created by the Pak Army. Ofcourse nobody takes him seriously, and I often wonder if India had been Pakistan, he would have gone missing many years back like the Balochis and the Pushtuns in Pakistan. This is the voice of secular Muslims who are internally filled with hate against the Indian state and would jump at every opportunity to bash and marginalise the country. Ofcourse he stayed in India after partition, but his salvation lies in his solidarity with the greater muslim brotherhood a.k.a Pakistan army thugs and their Jihadi narrative. And what the fuck does he mean by alienation? Out of the 22 districts, only 5 districts in Kashmir is Jihadi infested. Think that education can change the thinking of a moderate muslim? He is proof. Islam is a political religion and whatever is happening in the Muslim world and in Kashmir is the last crusade. The path muslims are on, it would burn them alive. Muslims are the new jews, but with a lot of blood on their hands, and I don't think when push comes to shove anyone would shed a tear for them, not would anyone miss them. A lot of innocents would be killed, but there are always collateral damage that any war or the world can live with. They can't even see the shitstorm coming.

    These are the viruses of the cancerous society amongst moderate secular muslims that we witness from time to time. They don't pick up a gun and start killing, they incite the masses with their writings. Muslims have yet to understand that they are the ones who should be doing the cleaning, if others take the lead, it won't be pretty and there would not be much of a muslim world left to count.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._G._Noorani

    Well know writer, author, supreme court lawyer etc. You haven't heard of him because the current political climate isn't conducive to what he has to say

    What is your take on the Kathua incident ? there is a strange pattern i've noticed where people that were happy with Modi suddenly don't like him anymore because he took a full two days to respond. Too knee jerk emotional. Some thing about that incident makes me think its anything but the way it was reported. More like politically managed. Mr.Pai articulates my suspicions about it

    https://youtu.be/bUKOE97L2xI
    Conducive? Is the Modi government killing Muslims in India? Or, depriving Muslims of their constitutional privileges? This is the narrative set by the Pak Army and their Congress stooges in India. Why the hell does Mani Shanker Aiyer go to Pak and say that he has got more love in Pak. If that is the case, why doesn't that asshole apply for Pak citizenship and live their with the feet long bearded mullahs and chant Allah all day.

    The rape and murder of the minor Bakerwal girl is a sad incident. I have read both parts from this story and would not like to comment until investigations are being done. But my response is intact, hang those responsible irrespective of religion or better still - skin them alive. And the PM is busy, he works for 18 hrs a day. Should he leave his constitutional obligations and comment on every thing? Has he not commented earlier when lynch mobs killed some muslims due to beef related incidents? Is Praveen Togadia not marginalised? What more does the PM have to do? Has he not tried to mend fences with Pak by inviting Sharif to his swearing-in ceremony, amidst the attack on the Indian Embassy in Kabul? Did he not stop by for Sharif's daughters wedding in Pak?

    What more do moderate muslims want? What more does the separatists want? What more can we give to Pak?

    Crimes have happened under the Congress rule far more than under BJP. And suddenly the situation in India is not conducive. Conducive for whom?

    Edit: What's in the youtube video? Internet is slow, remains slow.
    Last edited by Oracle; 20 May 18, at 06:03.

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