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Thread: Stone pelting a conspiracy by Pakistan and its agents in Kashmir

  1. #196
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    MP Bob Blackman's counter letter to Boris Johnson came as a result of an earlier letter authored by 8 Labour MP's of Pak origin. Going to highlight the lies in there in bold

    Dear Prime Minister,

    “We are deeply concerned by reports that the Indian government has revoked Article 370 of the Indian constitution, which will lead to Kashmir losing large vestiges of its autonomy and, in doing so, violate the UN resolution.

    “This decision follows on from what appears to be an orchestrated coup by Indian authorities. Since Friday, the Indian Government has moved thousands of troops into Kashmir and placed heavy restrictions on the daily life of its 7 million residents. There have been numerous reports that mainstream political leaders have been placed under house arrest, schools shut down, telephone and internet services severed, and all public movement banned, leaving the region in complete lockdown. Most concerning are reports that Indian authorities have used cluster ammunition against civilians, leading to the death of two civilians, including a four-year-old child and a dozen injuries. Reports state that, in recent days, 38,000 Indian troops have been deployed to the region. In addition to the existing 700,000 occupational forces.

    “There can be no doubt that the region of Kashmir has been a festering wound since the partition of Indian and Pakistan in 1947. As our newly-appointed Prime Minister, we urge you to recognise that the British Government has a historic obligation to help to mediate between Pakistan, India and Kashmir. You will be aware that tensions first arose in Kashmir after the British colonial administration departed from the subcontinent, leaving the Kashmiri people within the jurisdiction of the new nation of India. At that time, the UK signed United Nations Security Council Resolution 47, a resolution which demanded that the Kashmiri people were given the right to self-determination a free and impartial plebiscite.

    “We call on you to strongly condemn the actions of the Indian Government in revoking Article 370 and to consider the wider context of this act led by Prime Minister Modi, the leader of a far-right political wing of Hindu nationalism. This is a movement that is changing India for the worse and one that views India’s 195 million Muslims as second-class citizens – BBC reports have detailed how many are lynched by Hindu Nationalists in the name of ‘cow protection’. His recent re=election has given an electoral mandate to majoritarian nationalism at best, and Hindu fascism at worst. It is emboldening the reactionary elements at work in India, unleashing them even further, and leading to even more violence against Muslims. The demolition of Kashmir, India’s only majority Muslim state, into what will effectively be a colony ruled from Delhi, will serve only to reinforce the growing view that in Modi’s India, Muslims are second class citizens. More worryingly, as a consequence of the revocation of Article 370, there are very real concerns on ‘land grabbing’ with reports that the government is planning to build exclusive Hindu settlements in the region, which would lead to the deliberate demographic transformation of the region from majority Muslim to majority Hindu.

    “As the most heavily militarised region in the world, we simply cannot afford to look away as tensions inevitably escalate in the region. The revocation of Article 370 contravenes international law and will act only to inflame tensions and trigger major unrest. We urge you to put principle before Britain’s trade relationship and speak up for the Kashmiri people, to whom we have a responsibility to help and resolve this seven-decade long crisis.”
    And who pray tell will be escalating those tensions, Ms Yasmin Qureshi ? Maybe you could have a word with the boys in Pindi.

    Who started it all in the first place.

    There's more

    45 UK MPs, peers urge UN chief to stop India's Kashmir move | Express Tribune.pk | Aug 11 2019

    43 from the opposition Labour Party and a couple snagged from the SNP


    Name:  corbyn.JPG
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    Just for laughs
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Aug 19, at 01:46.

  2. #197
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    His viewers did not agree, but I did : )


  3. #198
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Don't tell me you believe this Pak myth about 800k Indian troops stationed in the valley. A former Major, Gaurav Arya exposed this a while back. See, its physically impossible to get that many troops into an area that is 140 X 20 km. The real number is around 160k, with support staff making it 250k. So no you do not have a soldier outnumbering the Kashmir population man for man : )
    I never said that's how many men you have stationed in the valley.


    10% of 8 million for the entire state oppose. And these hardliners hijack the conversation and spread their narrative. What is that narrative.
    Playing with numbers is nice, isn't it? Let's try 0.0009% of 1.3 billion next. That'll make for an ever rosier number.

    Pro Sunni, Valley & male should over rule everybody else. Dogra, Pahadi, Shia, Buddhist, women and everybody else from the Union of India.
    I dont want another mainland india type situation where Hindu fanatics should over rule everybody else. I'm all for standing up for the little guy. Right now, that just happens to be the oppressed chaps in the valley.


    You don't have democracy in a republic. The only place that has democracy is Switzerland. Direct democracy. Republics exist precisely to prevent a tyranny of the majority. Bound by a constitution with laws and a SC that enforces them. The people complaining aren't fanatics but moderate sympathisers. I find increasingly these sympathisers are the sharper critics of this govt. Even then they tend to put it across subtly for fear of being called sell outs.
    Ok, so my mistake calling india a "Republic". I guess that moniker is just for PR's sake.

    Also, I cant care much for these "moderate sympathizers" who cant stand up against bullying of minorities. They are no different to me then those so called "moderate" apologetics for rabid Islamists. Two faces of the same coin.



    Temporary for now. There was no gag, to the contrary Indian media does not get in there due to security reasons. All Kashmiri media is pro-separatist if they want to be safe. Skews things a great deal. It's only recently the Indian govt is trying to up its media game but its far behind.
    Yea, the media stays out for their own safety. And here CNN, CBC, BBC boys and girls went on the front lines in Iraq and Afghanistan. Its safer for the Indian media to just tow the government's line.


    That would be a win for them. To be handled with proportion & sensitivity. We will not have another Jallianwalla bagh.
    It's good to learn from the mistakes of the original colonizers.

    The PM set the right tone in his speech. No triumpalism. No saying we are teaching them a lesson. Fanboys and some of the media outlets aren't taking heed. They are pouring petrol on a smouldering fire.
    Only ones taking this Sanghi PM serious are his Sanghi followers. We all know he puts on a show for the cameras.. and his Sanghis..


    Then you have not been paying attention. When the raid in 2016 took place, people said it was done before. Yes, smaller versions of it. The change this time was you had a PM who owned the decision. This means publically admitting to crossing the LoC. This earlier govts did not want to admit. Still people were not impressed but this was a major change in the govt's thinking.
    It was a major change in the sense that he was the first PM to start using Indian military and Indian strategic policy for the benefit of his own PR campaign.

    That raid formed the basis for the next move, the air raid into Pakistan proper. Now the entire area of Pakistan is open to an Indian reprisal. Another major mindset change. What it did was flip things about. Earlier a terrorist attack occurred and the world said India must show restraint. Now, the terrorist act is the provocation to which the world acts. Not India's reaction. Nobody condemned the air raid. All of a sudden India now has a right to self defense.
    No, that's dumb, the world never said that. As far as I can recall, even after the 2008 Mumbai attacks, everyone supported India's right to self defense had it chosen to carry out retaliatory strikes. India had the entire world's backing at the time. Yes, everyone called for restraint because they want to prevent a nuclear conflict just the same as they called for restraint during the recent events.

    To pretend that the world was holding india back and this hero Modi came and changed the world's perspective is an outright Sanghi lie

    So after we whack them the world is telling Pakistan to show restraint. See the difference ? this is the new norm. I can only put this down to the excellent diplomatic outreach of this govt. All those trips abroad paid off.
    And when the Paks tried to hit back the next day, the world told both sides to chill.. I don't see what changed. Get us into some exclusive clubs like the NSG, then we'll talk.


    See Shekhar's video a few posts back for how we've flipped more things for the Paks. What used to be their domain has now become ours and they are on the back foot having to react. All this in the space of a few months.
    If Shekhar says so, it must be true. I hope the Pakistanis know how much more on a backfoot they are now.

    The Pak air action was for show for their own audience. How was it retaliatory. What could they target. As it turns out nothing. And we downed their F16 which was never found because it was scooting away with a Mig21 hot on its tail into PoK.
    And Indian air action was for show for their own audience. The only difference is the Paks had more to show for it as compared with Modi's mere chest thumping; hence, they win that propaganda stunt. It's an "L" for Modi so let's move on...

    The Paks won the propaganda stunt because we have an opposition that has no qualms mouthing out the enemy's position thereby encouraging them.
    Its the oppositions fault now? So you're blaming the opposition for not riding Modi's Singham narrative? The Pakistanis paraded around an Indian pilot.. India couldn't even produce a video of the madrassa being hit, let alone an F-16 being downed.. Why not also blame Nehru again while we're at it.

    There can be no two opinions in any party when it comes to national security. The way they questioned the efficacy of the strikes was disgraceful.
    Why? Because it hurt Modi's narrative in front of his own masses? Because internationally, the whole world was raising the same questions. I dont think there was a single media organization internationally which took Indian claims at face value without a question mark at the end.

    A boot to the neck of the separatists only and that includes the soft variety as well who put their interests ahead of state security or the people under them. Why has this problem festered for so long unless it made sense to keep it that way so as to attract funding from both India & Pakistan. Yes, the cartel there has been taken off guard. Nothing prevents them running for office, if the people will have them
    Sanghis are the least credible people to solve problems such as Kashmir because of their ideological fanaticism. Only thing they can do is forcefully take Kashmir for the Hindus by drowning out local Muslim population. I know they look at Israel for inspiration in that regard.

    And running for office... what office?

    Listening to AIM's chat with Sham there is an element of truth to what you said about the govt sabotaging them.
    You had to listen to someone's chat for that? It's pretty obvious for all to see..


    But the BJP was the junior partner and had to play the game until the whole charade fell apart. No settlements can come about unless the situation stabilises. Will there be active discrimination against all Indians there which was not the case earlier ? ie excacerbating the problem further. Threaten their lives and say J&K is for Kashmiris only. We will have to deal with that eventuality way before any settlements come up.
    Walk into someone's house with a gun and warn the owners to not "discriminate" against your entourage while you help yourselves around because they'd "exacerbate" the problem if they do. I know, I know.. it's your house now and if they dont like it they should all just vacate and move out..

    Oh and yes, Kashmir should be for Kashmiris only unless the Kashmiris themselves decide otherwise.. but not much you can do about a foreign occupation and 21st century colonizers.

    J&K will become like Delhi. The governor will be more powerful. Again as the PM said, should they be good boys & girls they can have statehood again. It's a tough love message.
    1. J&K will become like Delhi is just like the bs peddled by BJP in 2014 that India will be a superpower by 2020. I hope it does but not falling for that bs propaganda.

    2. J&K ruler will be hand picked by Delhi not by Kashmiris.

    3. No one cares what this Sanghi PM says. They just have to bear his deeds.


    What good have they been ? A cartel of forty families that pretty much monopolised the politics there. Now the space for alternative politics opens up.
    Ahhh.... so this is a favour to the Kashmiris. Lol. Hope they're feeling blessed to have such benevolent Sanghi overlords.

    Not jumping through any loops, calling out the oppositions misleading narratives. Fact of the matter is cow slaughter laws enacted in this country have absolutely zero to do with religion. Does not stop people claiming that their entire basis is such. Fans as well as detractors.

    In the south we do not have much of these problems because a) we don't have major beef export industry and our laws permit farmers to use their cows until such time they are not productive and at which point they are sold. It's more complicated up north. If a villager spends up to half a lakh for a cow that then becomes an investment as important as a car for the middle class. To then have that investment stolen with no recourse to justice because the local cops have been paid off is going to lead to vigilantism. If the govt is seen as unresponsive or late to react then it is portrayed as "hindu mobs lynching muslims or dalits". This you will not hear on the private media channels. You have to hang out in the pro hindu channels to learn.
    Oh right, these are just a bunch of crime fighting vigilantes, not Hindu nutjobs lynching Muslims and Dalits at all..

    It must be an international conspiracy to malign these benevolent Hindu nationalists..

    Radical cow protection groups in India have killed at least 44 people over the last three years and often received support from law enforcement and Hindu nationalist politicians, according to a new report from Human Rights Watch.

    The 104-page report unveiled this week examines Hindu nationalist vigilante attacks and said 36 of the dead were members of India’s large Muslim minority. About 280 people have been injured in more than 100 attacks between May 2015 and December 2018, the report by the New York-based group said.

    Members of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, which supports policies to protect cows revered by the country’s majority Hindus, have “increasingly used communal rhetoric that has spurred a violent vigilante campaign against beef consumption and those deemed linked to it,” the group said.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/ar...e-report-finds

    On March 18, 2016, a group of men murdered two Muslim cattle herders who were on their way to sell bulls at an animal fair in India’s Jharkhand state. The attackers, all linked to a local “cow protection” group, accused Mohammed Mazlum Ansari, 35, and Imteyaz Khan, 12, of selling the cattle for slaughter, then beat them to death and hanged their bodies from a tree.
    https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/02/1...ack-minorities

    The killing of a Muslim man from a village in northern India by an irate mob who suspected him of having consumed beef has set off a political blame game in the South Asian nation, while also sparking fears of rising Hindu nationalism under Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

    Several leaders from the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), which Modi belongs to, have made statements ranging from implicit justification to outright support for the perpetrators. Local member of parliament Mahesh Sharma — also the country’s Culture Minister — called the lynching an “accident,” while another politician named Sangeet Som — accused of inciting communal riots in a nearby town that killed 65 people in 2013 — warned of a “befitting reply” if the suspects arrested for the execution were prosecuted, according to Reuters.

    https://time.com/4060906/dadri-lynch...hammad-akhlaq/

    Can you substantiate in what ways they are advancing this exclusionary goal ?

    You give the hindu right way too much credit. Hindus are not monolithic. Their USP is Modi. Take Modi out of the picture and how dominant will the BJP be ? Do you forget the ten years they spent in the opposition benches mouthing off.
    Why take Modi out of the picture? Their USP is a Hindu country of which Modi is their messiah. Vajpayee was a turncoat, rising the ranks after tearing down Babri but then soft once in power. Modi is their man to finally give them their Hindu rashtra.

    You want me to substantiate how they are advancing towards this goal? Really? As if this party is secretly advancing such an agenda. They shout the same off rooftops, they have instilled the RSS into every institution of this country. Every step of theirs is to advance towards that goal, and you want me to substantiate this for you?? Common, we both know the reality man.. The entire world knows.. why pretend ignorance; it wont help shape the image of this Hindu government for the world. The world can see the same thing which Modi likes to show to placate his domestic Hindu fanatic base. No amount of bear hugs to world leaders will change that fact.

    What opposition ? the opposition that won the states of MP, Rajasthan & Chattisgarh only last year's end. It would seem voting at the state level where Modi isn't in the running is a different proposition than at the centre.
    Small pockets of domestic opposition doesnt translate to anything on the national level.

    A few regrettable anecdotes. Made public for PR reasons and to appease hindu extremists. Like the ghar vapasi events.
    That pretty much sums up everything. Couple that with the "moderate sympathizers" willing to live with appeasing Hindu extremists at the cost of a few lynched minorities, and you know why a Hindu run India is no country for minorities.

    This govt isn't fanatic. Last five years have given me ample confidence to say that. I'm more into fear bashing than mongering.
    It depends on what side you're standing on. I see fanatic nutjobs on the same level as the Jamat in Pakistan. I guess it was only inevitable for the country to regress back into the medieval ages as the country loses its values instilled by western educated leaders like Nehru.

    That is what the Paks want you to believe : )

    If they can get non-hindus to beleive all of that and oppose hindus that would be an even bigger win than whatever they've accomplished to date. If you want to break India this is a good way of going about it. Thing is its taken seventy years with meagre returns on that score and i predict the same will continue. Not buying it.
    Well, Pakistans founding philosophy was that Muslims cannot co-exist in a Hindu dominated nation while India's ideology was for a secular nation above religion.

    Today, BJP and Hindu nutjobs are the living example that Jinnah was correct. It's not Pakistan that is convincing anyone but the Hindu nutjobs..

    There is a tendency in south asia for majorities to behave as if they are the persecuted. Let's see how far it goes. To date i have not seen anything major. Just tendencies. Tendencies can tend towards some point but take an eternity to reach there. As there will always be counter vailing forces.
    This tendency has put fanatics in power right now.. How is that not "anything major"? I guess that's the benefit of being a Hindu in a Hindu run nation, or a Muslim in an Islamic nation.. you ain't the one getting crushed, so meh...

    What is the problem with it ? I heard advocacy for two other sites as well. Varanasi & Mathura. What is the big deal ? they are religous places for hindus.

    This you can say is the govt deviating from a secular approach and favouring one religious community. You can then use that as a basis to make more arguments that benefit just one community. Hence openly Hindu govt : )
    Did you just say "deviating" from a secular approach? Lol. I'll pretend you meant how this government has deviated from the previous government's secular ideology.

    And about the temples.. that's nothing shocking.. totally expected from a Hindu government to build temples for their Hindu base who put them into power.. Especially after all the hard work and energy they put into demolishing centuries old Mosques.

    Their next agenda item is universal civil code. You have a problem with this ? Mans getting rid of the exceptions that various communities have. Indian Sharia or muslim personal law, Hindu Undivided family, etc etc. One law for all Indians regardless of community. Is this pro-hindu as well ?
    Are you fishing for something here? Because no, I dont have a problem with that at all.. I'd rather live in a country with a universal law, eating my steak, sipping my wine with some nice pork ribs on the side and totally care free without being lynched alive.. Thank god I live in the West..

    See, part i'm interested in is at what point does their agenda become anti-non hindu ?
    When they use their power to promote solely Hindu interests at the expense of minorities, a la Ram temple, and influence to give positions of power to Hindu fanatics, a la Yogi, with a history of violence towards minorities. That's just a start.


    Exactly, cow belt with all its problems. Not the case in the south, north, west or east. Any pol that tries to pass off cow belt problems in the rest of the country isn't going to get much traction. People will ask why isn't he talking about local issues instead.
    Yet those same people are concerned about Kashmiri pandits in Kashmir.. hypocrisy. Hindus look after Hindus, eh? Who cares about a bunch of lynched Muslims in the cow belt.. not your problem.. that's probably crime fighting vigilantes or a hundred other excuses..

    Mangalore is known by at least four different names depending on language and dialect. Yet only the Kannada version is mentioned as its the state language. You think people who've grown up knowing it by other names are going to over night change their minds ? no, they won't. Maybe future generations will.
    Highlighted part.. Hindutva: 1 India: 0

    We takin overrr... one city name at a time.. (<that was DJ Khaled, not me)

    And what is your problem if they want to build a Ram temple ? what has been reduced to a land dispute has turned again into some communal agitation just like it began. Time to move on.
    Dude, the Hindu nutjobs haven't even moved on from the centuries old Hindu invasions but you want the Muslims to move on about the 500 year old Mosque of theirs you just bulldozed yesterday..

    And what is my problem? I'm just standing up for the little guy..

    Maybe i should say expedient politics instead. Tactical.
    Whatever rocks your boat..

    Apparently the site has religious value as mentioned by the Archeological survey of India. They found evidence of a hindu temple underneath.
    Apparently 2 of the surveyors part of that expedition called bullshit on that report and called it a lie written under political compulsion pushed by the Hindu government of that time..

    I follow media that gives me a better understanding of what this govt of the day is doing and what it is about in an as objective manner as possible. Whether i like or don't like said govt is irrelevant. If it means getting the party line then so be it. As a result i've become familiar with hindu issues. This does not make me an apologist but explaining what I've understood they are doing. I find this part gets twisted quite well and what comes out is very different than the intent.

    But that is a far better approach than starting off what the opposition says without first getting a background of what the protagonists intend. Default position of those who oppose or hate this govt.
    What does the opposition say? Why do you keep bringing up "opposition" with me? I dont give 2 sh!ts about the corrupt idiots sitting on the other side.. yes, personally I'd take corrupt imbecile morons over religious nutjobs any day but that's besides the point..


    Are you familiar with the Sabarimala, that was a commie hit job on the hindus. What did this govt do ? did they intervene like Rajiv with Shah Bano. No, they went with the court and that was it. Republic with laws in action. Had they done a Rajiv what you said about hindu govt becomes stronger. That the executive so empowered is wiling to intervene on matters that it was not constituted to do.

    So now we're comparing cold blooded murder with Hindu temple politics.. only reason Modi didnt touch Sabrimala is because he didnt want his women voters to think he was a misogynist.. it was loose-loose for him, he had nothing to gain from getting involved in Sabrimala.. it wasn't some sudden love for the rule of law or democracy, lol. I'm not dumb man and I dont believe you are either so why are we wasting time making such silly arguments..

    This was not my understanding. Curious estranged relationship we have with the Nepalis, since the 60s. What should have been a mutually benefical one was completely messed up for decades. Bhutan is a good example of how things should have progressed but alas.

    I note the similarity which both Rajiv & Modi had to deal with them. neither Congress or the BJP can handle them and i'm not blaming either leader, i'm blaming the bloody Nepalis for their bone headed-ness. The Nepalis say on both occasions we blockaded them. But the term blockade is military in origin and at no time was the Indian military used for such a purpose. Such semantics is lost on the Nepalis who insist we wanted to show them who was boss. True.

    So now they want to kiss up to China, well, they are free to interact with whomsoever they chose but the moment they endanger our security we will be fighting the Chinese, in Nepal to the last Nepali. This got me called a hindu extremist. The British model of a two tier security system still applies. it's one tier now but Nepal, Sikkim & Bhutan form the inner tier. Two out of the three are settled. One is up in the air and for now we're letting them play as China is just too far away to help them should they need it. The tyranny of geography is in our favour. For this I got called a colonialist.
    You're not the British and Nepal is not the same old buffer country. Most Nepalis have a much stronger sense of sovereignty now but anyways that's a whole another topic.

    Communally sensitive areas have a context to begin with and will flare up regardless of who is in power. The catalysts can be trivial. Law & order is a state subject. Govts have an interest in stability. We've dealt with these problems since independence and is an ongoing issue.

    Coastal Karnataka tends to have flare up from time to time. Whether BJP or Congress in charge makes no difference to frequency of communal incidents. The reason is that region has no dominant majority community so its a free for all. Some people refer to the region as an RSS lab. They've been at it for the last twenty years. Pushing getting pushed back and so on.
    We can talk about anything other than the fact that fanatics are in power and actively preach Hindu superiority and murder of minorities..

    Only ideology i have is Indian. Whatever the founding fathers came up with. Nehru's idea of India and not some hindu nutjobs wet dream. Community affiliations are irrelevant to me. Back in 2014 i was wondering whether we would be condemned to be a one party only country. Japan is like that. Isn't it important for Indian politics to have a viable alternative. We found one and i'm struck that the GOP is now being referred to as just as lost as the BJP were in their ten years in the wilderness. We recycle narratives. I was not even sure Modi would win this time, and whether there would be another Vajpayee moment. Just see what he went through. PM for 13 days, toppled. Then for a couple of years, toppled again. Finally he gets his term. Then loses the next election.

    What is the BJP's or any other party's ideology these days ? way i see it is just about holding on to power. Everything else is a distance second.
    That I know. I only have a problem when that holding on to power is by using xenophobia, hatred filled ideology and quite literally built upon the blood of minorities.

    This trend is being called ethno centric nationalism or civilisationalism. This is a more generic way of referring to the phenomenon across the world and gives points of reference to compare countries with. States as defined by the treaty of westphalia are being ordered around civlisational attributes instead of the traditional nation state values.

    You can see gradual changes to the status quo. Is it necessarily bad ? debatable. Is it just a trend ? don't know.
    I dont care what it's called. I just know I despise the cowards who prey on the weaker sections of society and this is what these cowardice ideologies, such as Hindutva and Islamism tend to be doing. I'll keep standing against it and keep counting my blessings I dont happen to live in your country.

    Just talk. How likely and when is an open question. Referring it as Hindu settlements implies its muslim land. Sure you want to phrase it that way given the history ?

    It's Indian land and the laws of India now apply across the length & breadth of the country.
    It's Kashmiri land, majority of whom happen to be Muslim so.... phrase it any way you want.

    As for "Indian laws", how much water do they even carry given how easily article 370 was discarded? It's big fish eat the small fish; this government has done aplenty to weaken Indian institutions.

    We will see. Veteran watchers of the region say a reaction there does not come the day after, or a week or month after. It comes a year to a year and a half later.

    The status quo has changed. What will they do. Challenge it in court. So until that plays out there won't be anything untoward i suppose. When they lose the case in the SC then we will get to know for real.
    I dont think any normal Kashmiris would care about the supreme court or any Indian institutions. You're implying as if they have faith in the Indian system. Kudos to them if they still do but I don't see any reason for them to. They just got their land snatched.. if China could do it in Tibet, so too can India in Kashmir. Big fish eat the small fish, eh?

    Why should we preserve a relic of this wrong and outdated thinking. Was partition up for vote. Did it go through Parliament. No it was the Brits deciding they wanted a military outpost that resulted in it. They then engineered a war to ensure Pakistan ensured with a portion of land that allowed access to China. Very far sighted and strategic on their part.
    As far as I'm concerned, the British Raj was just replaced by Pakistani and Indian Raj.. I dont see what's different now apart from the fact that now it's the Muslims in Pakistan and Hindus in India who get to push around their minorities.. same sh!t in all of South Asia. You really are all descendants of the same people at the end of the day.. 70 years apart yet still so much alike..

    If it rights a historic wrong i won't be against. That it took this long is the only question.
    Dude, I already know you're not against it.. To me, all fanatics are made of the same ilk.. just different sides of the same coin but with the same victim mentality of being wronged and lashing out at the weakest sections of society who cant fight back..

    This isn't a communal agitation. Why are you phrasing it that way ?

    Why would the BSP come out in support. BSP, Maya's party is pretty far from being a BJP ally and have a muslim constituency to cater to. Same for parties like BJD, YSR & AIADMK hardly pro BJP. You could say they saw the mood and realised they never contest elections in J&K and went with it.
    Maybe because the BSP, Maya, etc all see how profitable it is to cheer stomping on the Kashmiris in their own constituencies.. they cant let the BJP get all the votes, now can they..

    Indian muslims and Kashmiri muslims see each other as separate with different political causes. You never get Indian muslims going to Kashmir to fight a jihad the way Paks go over. Because this is not a muslim problem, in India.
    Tell that to the Sanghis.. not me..
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

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    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Now DE, I dont think I can go toe to toe with you in this debate because that last post took me much more than an hour to type while running around with my day and by the end of it, my replies really started to wane.. but I gotta ask.. with the amount of pro-government material you publish on this website, it must take a great deal of your time.. do you get paid for this or is this your hobby? I see you publish articles religiously without much debate most of the time and it just makes me wonder.. that's a lot of time invested..
    Last edited by Tronic; 14 Aug 19, at 04:29.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

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    Military Professional 667medic's Avatar
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    J&K bifurcation: Pakistan's double standards exposed

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/70652390.cms

    I wonder why the GOI didn't raise a stink over this issue.
    Seek Save Serve Medic

  6. #201
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    Now DE, I dont think I can go toe to toe with you in this debate because that last post took me much more than an hour to type while running around with my day and by the end of it, my replies really started to wane.. but I gotta ask.. with the amount of pro-government material you publish on this website, it must take a great deal of your time.. do you get paid for this or is this your hobby?
    Odd you would ask this question considering you've been a member here longer than me. How did you find the time : )

    To be able to argue against the govt you need to understand what the govt is doing. People supporting the opposition rarely do. These narratives, mostly false come out of thin air with little concern for facts. If you hate the govt then you're an easy mark. Differing is ok but can you defend it. The only time i pay attention to the opposition is when they score.

    So i rarely see merit in the opposition's waffle. Not just in India but worldwide. If i was looking at bilats or trilats, only what the govt of the day is saying matters. They make policy. This is why those 45 British Labour MP's protest letter to the UN about India's internal matter amounts to nothing. Just noise. This simple point is missed by some media outlets who see this generic term "govt official" as no less important.

    It seems if you are informed about govt policy that then makes you either a spokesperson or a lobbyist ? whether i work for the BJP IT cell, i get that too : )

    I do this to spot the opposition's BS. What is going on as opposed to what others with their own interests tell you. Mislead you. If the govt of the day is lying, they will be found out, called out and thrown out. How important do you think it is for this move to succeed. I'd say the BJP's future in politics depends on it and they are going to pull out all the stops to make it work. One step closer to unifying the country. Course the opposition is going to up to their usual tricks, tainting everything

    World affairs is a hobby for me for over a decade. I prefer forums where you can have the kind of exchanges we have here that just aren't possible in other formats. You can't have these conversations in real life either. Too dense to do verbally. Written is best. Besides nothing discussed here ever makes for polite social conversation.

    I see you publish articles religiously without much debate most of the time and it just makes me wonder.. that's a lot of time invested..
    Debate is up to people who want to bring things up. I post stuff that i think is interesting. The "religiously" part is for topic tracking purposes. Line of thought. Something i found lacking here. You get a flurry of posts then weeks of nothing then more posts and it makes following a topic difficult because what happened in the intervening gap is missing. Instead people commenting after some development assuming everybody is at the same page as they are.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Aug 19, at 19:54.

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    Why does Indian Kashmir have special status in the first place. I realise it borders Pakistan and the separation of peoples brought about by Partition. But don't understand why the clean break was not made one way or the other. Also does Pakistan Kashmir have special status in Pakistan ?

  8. #203
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 667medic View Post
    J&K bifurcation: Pakistan's double standards exposed

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/70652390.cms

    I wonder why the GOI didn't raise a stink over this issue.
    With whom ? Pakistan they have made representations to. Would they listen ?yes. Anything more ? no. Their position has been J&K belongs to them and the only thing to talk about is the part that does not.

    The world ? no, because that then plays into the hands of the other.

    For so long i was told India does not and actively avoids publicising the issue.

    Paks did the opposite, went to town.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Aug 19, at 18:33.

  9. #204
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    Why does Indian Kashmir have special status in the first place. I realise it borders Pakistan and the separation of peoples brought about by Partition. But don't understand why the clean break was not made one way or the other. Also does Pakistan Kashmir have special status in Pakistan ?
    A good question, all the articles and shows i watched nobody asked this simple question. The emphasis was on why said status was removed , how and what comes next.

    After independence in 1947, princely states were given three options, remain independent or join either India or Pakistan. Those that acceded agreed in three areas. Defence, Foriegn affairs and communications. J&K opted to remain independent and entered into a standstill agreement with Pakistan to continue to have control over communication, travel and trade. But the Paks reneged and sent tribesmen to occupy J&K. The hindu ruler then asked India for help who agreed to do so on the condition he accede J&K to India. He agreed. What followed then was a short war and the princely state got split between the two. It's entirety could have been had but our PM of the time, a Kashmiri Hindu not opted to take the case to the UN who then called for a cease fire.

    Princely states has their own constitutions but in 1949 agreed to substitute in the Indian constitution. The J&K reps disagreed and only agreed to those provisions of the Indian constitution contained in the instrument of accession. And so Article 370 came into being giving J&K "special" status thereby restricting Delhi's control over J&K.

    Article 370: What, Why and How? (pdf) | ISAS | Aug 08 2019

    I don't understand what you mean by clean break ? why special status instead of full union ?

    If you see 667medic's post, for pakistan initially there were provisions that got gradually whittled down. They also settled people from Punjab there changing the demography of the region.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Aug 19, at 19:42.

  10. #205
    Liberté, Unité, Egalité Senior Contributor Tronic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Odd you would ask this question considering you've been a member here longer than me. How did you find the time : )
    I was 14 years old when I started here.. all I had was time. Lol.

    To be able to argue against the govt you need to understand what the govt is doing. People supporting the opposition rarely do. These narratives, mostly false come out of thin air with little concern for facts. If you hate the govt then you're an easy mark. Differing is ok but can you defend it. The only time i pay attention to the opposition is when they score.

    So i rarely see merit in the opposition's waffle.
    That's kool to know. I didn't know people supporting the opposition were so dumb.. thanks for informing me man..

    I was just talking about the Hindu fanatics in power though but thanks for the tidbit on the opposition..

    Not just in India but worldwide. If i was looking at bilats or trilats, only what the govt of the day is saying matters. They make policy. This is why those 45 British Labour MP's protest letter to the UN about India's internal matter amounts to nothing. Just noise. This simple point is missed by some media outlets who see this generic term "govt official" as no less important.
    Just googled about that letter by British MPs. That's pretty neat, I didnt know about that. Canadian MPs must be sleeping I guess.. or busy gearing up for the coming election. Regardless, that's pretty neat and highlights the divide of ideologies between the East and the West. Yes, just noise for you but good domestic politics for those MPs.


    It seems if you are informed about govt policy that then makes you either a spokesperson or a lobbyist ? whether i work for the BJP IT cell, i get that too : )

    I do this to spot the opposition's BS. What is going on as opposed to what others with their own interests tell you. Mislead you. If the govt of the day is lying, they will be found out, called out and thrown out. How important do you think it is for this move to succeed. I'd say the BJP's future in politics depends on it and they are going to pull out all the stops to make it work. One step closer to unifying the country. Course the opposition is going to up to their usual tricks, tainting everything
    Wow, you're fully invested in this party and their ideology it seems.. you seemed to be a pretty smart person but radicalism is poison, my friend.. not sure what else to say but goodluck I guess?

    I find it akin to convincing a fundamentalist Muslim that the Quran isn't really perfect (or any other religious fundamentalist with their holy book). The same logic applies here.. you can show a person the violent, all devouring raging wildfire in front of him but if he insists it's only to keep the village warm, what can you do? (< I totally just made that analogy up on the go right now :D)

    Oh, and I'd ask the local BJP office for pay.. that's pretty sad if you dont get paid for this.

    World affairs is a hobby for me for over a decade. I prefer forums where you can have the kind of exchanges we have here that just aren't possible in other formats. You can't have these conversations in real life either. Too dense to do verbally. Written is best. Besides nothing discussed here ever makes for polite social conversation.
    You barely have any exchanges.. I just see you posting daily bulletins in line with your party's world view. Apart from that, this neck of the woods is pretty dead. Its depressing and gloomy.


    Debate is up to people who want to bring things up. I post stuff that i think is interesting. The "religiously" part is for topic tracking purposes. Line of thought. Something i found lacking here. You get a flurry of posts then weeks of nothing then more posts and it makes following a topic difficult because what happened in the intervening gap is missing. Instead people commenting after some development assuming everybody is at the same page as they are.
    Ok brother.. if you say so.. I hope you dont feel offended by what I say. I'm not trying to be offensive.
    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by clean break ? why special status instead of full union ?
    I was questioning whether it was the will of the Kashmiri people or not, because if it wasn't and the Indian gov just dictated to an unwilling participant then Thats a ride into hell!

    If you see 667medic's post, for pakistan initially there were provisions that got gradually whittled down. They also settled people from Punjab there changing the demography of the region.
    So sad that religion and cast/class stop people from understanding each other when their needs are exactly the same!

  12. #207
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freyr View Post
    I was questioning whether it was the will of the Kashmiri people or not, because if it wasn't and the Indian gov just dictated to an unwilling participant then Thats a ride into hell!
    They weren't asked when they acceded neither were we when they were granted special status. The king wanted the place to be independent. The Paks intervened just as they are doing in Afghanistan today. They screwed up the lives of people in Kashmir and are doing the same in Afghanistan. The kashmiris will be ok but the Afghans have been thrown under a bus.

    We integrated over 500 princely states into the union through various means. Some times cajoling and at other times coercing. We sent in the army to handle the Nizam of Hyderabad and had we not done that then we'd have had another Pakistan in the south. J&K got confused because of Nehru. There is no ride to hell. The southern state of Andhra Pradesh recently split into to states is well integrated.

    What is so special about J&K ? nothing.

    Two nation theory is a sham, proven multiple times over. Removing 370 is about getting rid of this relic.

    So sad that religion and cast/class stop people from understanding each other when their needs are exactly the same!
    People say that's what it is but the end goal is political. This is why people on either side though of the same community can not have open borders. We had open borders but the Paks infiltrated in '48 so they've been fenced off in the 80s and remain that way ever since.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Aug 19, at 11:01.

  13. #208
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronic View Post
    That's kool to know. I didn't know people supporting the opposition were so dumb.. thanks for informing me man..

    I was just talking about the Hindu fanatics in power though but thanks for the tidbit on the opposition..
    Opposition to the Nuke deal with Bush & more recently, the allegations of govt corruption with the Rafale deal. Both BS productions brought to you by the beloved opposition.

    The first one i was not sure about though with more knowledge it should have been obvious. The NDA laid the foundation for the nuke deal post Pokhran 2. What they could not accept was losing power. The nuke deal was their baby but it was Manmohan who clinched it.

    The second i called out the moment it started because chances of corruption with a G to G deal are low. Was there a controversy when we bought the mirages in the 80s. No. Why then should there be any with Rafale. And notice how they target only the high ticket items. There are others that are lower in cost but the opposition is quiet about them.

    Then they started slamming his foreign policy and his galavanting around the world. The good people at RSTV made that one obvious.

    Just googled about that letter by British MPs. That's pretty neat, I didnt know about that.
    Do you follow any of the links posted ? Already linked to in the Pak tribune article.

    Canadian MPs must be sleeping I guess.. or busy gearing up for the coming election. Regardless, that's pretty neat and highlights the divide of ideologies between the East and the West. Yes, just noise for you but good domestic politics for those MPs.
    They're not sleeping, they got a earful when they visited last time. They are enough of a headache when it comes to Punjab as Amarinder keeps reminding us. It would behoove them not to become a PITA about Kashmir as well.

    It was amusing Amarinder refused to meet the Canadian defense minister because he considered him a sympathiser of sikh extremists.

    Wow, you're fully invested in this party and their ideology it seems.. you seemed to be a pretty smart person but radicalism is poison, my friend.. not sure what else to say but goodluck I guess?
    I'm a fan of their foreign & defense policy. At the state level they are no better than the rest. Why ? no Modi.

    They're in charge now. If they lose the next election what do i do. Spend the next few years hating on the next govt. No i will figure out what the next administration does and find ways to accept them too. I go with the people's choice.

    The national level is different. Some one asked what has Modi done. The answer is simple. Make us proud. I sensed shades of this even with the Vajpayee administration. It does not come over as convincingly with UPA. Last time i felt that was true was when Rajiv was in office. Good leaders are rare. Ones that will take risks more so.

    Look around you. How many good leaders do you see.

    I find it akin to convincing a fundamentalist Muslim that the Quran isn't really perfect (or any other religious fundamentalist with their holy book). The same logic applies here.. you can show a person the violent, all devouring raging wildfire in front of him but if he insists it's only to keep the village warm, what can you do? (< I totally just made that analogy up on the go right now :D)

    Oh, and I'd ask the local BJP office for pay.. that's pretty sad if you dont get paid for this.
    Would it also apply during the UPA years ? Not to the same extent. Where was the feel good factor with them in office.


    You barely have any exchanges.. I just see you posting daily bulletins in line with your party's world view. Apart from that, this neck of the woods is pretty dead. Its depressing and gloomy.
    I post interesting articles when i see them. People are free to agree or challenge.


    Ok brother.. if you say so.. I hope you dont feel offended by what I say. I'm not trying to be offensive.
    You're being partisan. You oppose their ideology. I get that but how is it relevant when it comes to defense & foreign policy ?

    For you everything and anything this govt does must be evil. Not a tenable position to have though i see plenty of this with the Americans. Either your preferred party is in office or we're all going to hell in a handbag eh : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Aug 19, at 13:06.

  14. #209
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    With all the begging & pleading they got at least this to show to their people. Won't go anywhere.

    China asks for UNSC meeting to discuss Kashmir after Pakistan writes letter to UN | TOI | Aug 15 2019

    China has asked for "closed consultations" in the UN Security Council to discuss India revoking the special status to Jammu and Kashmir after Pakistan, Beijing's closest ally, wrote a letter on the issue to Poland, the Council President for the month of August,
    Closed, exactly because it would get vetoed if ever put to vote.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    With all the begging & pleading they got at least this to show to their people. Won't go anywhere.

    China asks for UNSC meeting to discuss Kashmir after Pakistan writes letter to UN | TOI | Aug 15 2019



    Closed, exactly because it would get vetoed if ever put to vote.
    Vote for what exactly? Military intervention? Sanctions? We know that will never fly, so the UNSC meeting will be what we in India call a "Chai-biscuit" session. The worst that can come out of it is some sort of verbal or written censure for India, which won't change anything one bit. So let them discuss to their heart's content I say.

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