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  • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Like everything else, that depends on you. There's a hell of a lot of difference being certified for house plumbing than being certified to manage an office high rise or new condo water and sewage needs. If you're happy doing house plumbing, all the world to you but that does not mean you can't go up if you want to.

    There's a reason for Master Plumber and Master Electrician Certifications and it ain't 2% a year.

    And your post reeks of what I'm talking about. You and your upper middle class are blind to what the trades can offer. Paying your dues in this case is called Apprenticeship, aka learning on the job.
    According to payscale, the average Master Plumber makes $25/hr, instead of $20/hr for the average plumber. I'm going off the averages if I am going to recommend a profession to my kids. I'm not going to compare top 1% plumber to 50% accounting and say "hey, it's totally easy to become a master plumber doing unionized high-level commercial work for a major company and then you can clear $200k."

    If you want to be ambitious, there are clearer and easier routes available to you as an upper middle class kid. Traditionally, there was "lawyer" and "doctor." Lawyer specifically isn't high-paying anymore, but the general idea is that there are upper class white collar jobs that are protected by tests and certifications that will give you a high salary. My wife came out of school clearing six figures, same as my sister, because they are both pharmacists. You want to be ambitious? Totally cool, but I'll tell my kid to go be a pharmacist.


    I think the trades are fine. They certainly offer a better lifepath for a great number of Americans. My Dad worked in the trades when he had to drop out of school because he knocked up my Mom at 18. They are not good options for upper middle class kids who have other options, unless those kids REALLY like working with their hands. I do not want trades taught in my schools because it is a total waste of money because they just aren't going to have jobs like that. Granted, most of their education will be a waste of money anyways, so I don't care a whole hell of a lot, unless it damages the school's reputation among top colleges (because name-brand is extremely important).

    "Pay your dues" means something different in the corporate world than the trade school world. You should get paid and promoted and have assignments issued to you in accordance with your productivity level. If your company doesn't, another company will.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 19 Apr 18,, 22:05.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
      "Pay your dues" means something different in the corporate world than the trade school world. You should get paid and promoted and have assignments issued to you in accordance with your productivity level. If your company doesn't, another company will.
      "Pay your dues" for me, has meant "Build up your resume, gain knowledge and experience, the kind found only by working in the real world, until you're no longer looking at entry-level jobs and you're a sought-after commodity."

      In other words, you're not going to jump into a $75000/year salary right out of college.
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
        According to payscale, the average Master Plumber makes $25/hr, instead of $20/hr for the average plumber. I'm going off the averages if I am going to recommend a profession to my kids. I'm not going to compare top 1% plumber to 50% accounting and say "hey, it's totally easy to become a master plumber doing unionized high-level commercial work for a major company and then you can clear $200k."
        Don't know where you get your numbers.

        The federal Bureau of Labor Statistics tracks a variety of work-related data for plumbers, including salary information. According to figures released in May 2011, the nearly 350,000 plumbers in the country earned an average of $24.92 per hour, or approximately $51,830 per year. At the entry level, the lowest-earning 10 percent of plumbers averaged just $28,310 annually. However, the top 25 percent of plumbers averaged $64,790, and the top 10 percent averaged $82,310. Master plumbers would typically fall into the higher percentages.
        BTW, that lowest earning 10% are journeymen plumbers, meaning they're apprentices. That means that they're pocketing $28K a year learning instead of shelling out an average $17K a year going to college. So, at the end of 4 years, the journeyman would be $112K ahead while the student is $68K behind. That makes a $180K difference between the two.

        Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
        If you want to be ambitious, there are clearer and easier routes available to you as an upper middle class kid. Traditionally, there was "lawyer" and "doctor." Lawyer specifically isn't high-paying anymore, but the general idea is that there are upper class white collar jobs that are protected by tests and certifications that will give you a high salary. My wife came out of school clearing six figures, same as my sister, because they are both pharmacists. You want to be ambitious? Totally cool, but I'll tell my kid to go be a pharmacist.
        My point is is that it doesn't matter. Pick something you're good at (not necessary what you like) that pays the bills. Stick with it. Nothing is stopping anyone from landing that million dollar contract to install plumbing at the next Taj Mahal Casino provided that you do your homework.

        Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
        I think the trades are fine. They certainly offer a better lifepath for a great number of Americans. My Dad worked in the trades when he had to drop out of school because he knocked up my Mom at 18. They are not good options for upper middle class kids who have other options, unless those kids REALLY like working with their hands. I do not want trades taught in my schools because it is a total waste of money because they just aren't going to have jobs like that.
        Why not? Nothing teaches civil engineering like putting up houses.

        Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
        "Pay your dues" means something different in the corporate world than the trade school world. You should get paid and promoted and have assignments issued to you in accordance with your productivity level. If your company doesn't, another company will.
        Well, doesn't this sound good? No student loan and getting paid to learn.
        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 19 Apr 18,, 22:54.
        Chimo

        Comment


        • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
          "Pay your dues" for me, has meant "Build up your resume, gain knowledge and experience, the kind found only by working in the real world, until you're no longer looking at entry-level jobs and you're a sought-after commodity."

          In other words, you're not going to jump into a $75000/year salary right out of college.
          Like
          Chimo

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          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
            Red Team,



            but this cannot be done by "merely" changing the educational system alone. there MUST be viable, and even more importantly stable careers open at the end of the educational process.

            if you look at the general direction of the American workforce, it's actually going to the other way. the rise of contractor jobs which promise greater immediate pay but fewer benefits and little job stability (this is euphemistically called "flexibility"). the popularity of this is because it's more economically efficient, turning humans closer to the discrete economic units envisioned in Econ 101.
            I must admit, I was looking at things from a narrow point of view with respect to my area of study. In the big picture it's absolutely a broad, sociocultural, and sociopolitical issue that'll require years if not decades of legislative, economic, and bureaucratic change. With respect to the concept of "humans as widgets" well...that extreme is the reason why we still need unions.
            "Draft beer, not people."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              even then, what you describe as a "nice life on a $48K/year salary" is not equivalent to what was possible in the 1950s or hell, the 1970s.

              and good luck sending your kids to college when even state schools now cost a minimum of $40K.

              oh, and retirement? pensions don't really exist anymore. hope you've had a good set of years on the stock market.

              what was deemed a strictly middle-class lifestyle back then (NOT upper middle-class) is essentially the boundary between the middle/upper-middle class now, IE the difference between earning $50K a year and $75K a year.

              Old Economy Steve is one of those memes are that hit it square on the nail.


              there's a reason why Paul Ryan's libertarian vision is as popular as cancer even within his own party.
              I think there's some degree of truth to this, but kids of MC and UMC families have it a lot easier today than their parents did. My Dad started his prime working age years right at the time of "Old Economy Steve," and he didn't have a college diploma. Over the past several decades, that's been a BAD decision. Trust me, if you want to start whining about economic misery, my Dad and the white guys of HIS generation who did NOT get diplomas have a LOT more to complain about.

              I can definitely tell you my Mom didn't get sent to school because her parents couldn't afford it. Granted, college was cheaper back then, but most of us these days have SOME form of parental assistance to help cover some of the bills. College IS expensive, but it's WAY overblown. Average debt is $30,000 per year. That's not a great debt to have, but it's a manageable debt. The complaints come from people who borrowed a MASSIVE amount of money, or people who just suck with their money (new cars, expensive apartments, avocado toast, etc.) Plus, if it's federal, it generally has an interest rate cap. It's not like you are borrowing at 8%.

              The basket of goods available to my generation (and I think yours since you are relatively young) is also superior to the basket of goods available to my parents generation. Like, you can have a used car from the 90s that's still running. The cars that my parents and my in-laws had were total shit, because America produced mostly shit cars back then.

              I'll take my hand over my parent's hand any day of the week. The employment market prospects do suck in comparison, but I'll still take that over what the bullshit they had to go through.

              Maybe my grandfather had it "made," but if you want your best days of your lives to be the 50s-70s, be my guest. I think that's an obviously stupid trade.

              Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
              "Pay your dues" for me, has meant "Build up your resume, gain knowledge and experience, the kind found only by working in the real world, until you're no longer looking at entry-level jobs and you're a sought-after commodity."

              In other words, you're not going to jump into a $75000/year salary right out of college.
              I don't understand how people got this perspective about my generation at all. There is no one that expects this. The typical complaint is that opportunities to learn, build resume, gain knowledge, etc. are not available in the current positions.

              Maybe it's different in your industry or location? I don't know. But it's extraordinarily typical to be kept in a hole, both salary and skill-wise, at your current employer, and to get massive raises and more exposure by jumping ship. Even my parents and in-laws, who are definitely of the Old Economy Steve generation, recognize this and recommend job-switching while young to maximize both income and skill-set.

              Staying in one place just means stagnation and lower wages: it's the opposite of what you're recommending.

              Again, your industry might be different. I'm talking more FIRE.
              "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                I don't understand how people got this perspective about my generation at all. There is no one that expects this. The typical complaint is that opportunities to learn, build resume, gain knowledge, etc. are not available in the current positions.

                Maybe it's different in your industry or location? I don't know. But it's extraordinarily typical to be kept in a hole, both salary and skill-wise, at your current employer, and to get massive raises and more exposure by jumping ship. Even my parents and in-laws, who are definitely of the Old Economy Steve generation, recognize this and recommend job-switching while young to maximize both income and skill-set.

                Staying in one place just means stagnation and lower wages: it's the opposite of what you're recommending.

                Again, your industry might be different. I'm talking more FIRE.
                I've seen it, personally, in multiple industries. No, not all young people. But to say "there is no one that expects this" is simply wrong.

                I'm also not saying 'stay in one place'. I should've been more forthcoming with details. In my case I've worked in multiple industries since I was 15 years old: Retail, Building Trades, Factory, Customer Service Call Center, Microchip Broker and finally Logistics.

                As I moved around, I picked up certain skills that were stepping stones to each new opportunity. I then stacked those stones, one on top of the other, so that they complimented each other and kept climbing up.

                Then my golden opportunity arrived in 2011, and I was ready, able and willing to jump ship yet again, and grab the brass ring.

                The point is, it didn't happen overnight. And young people, of whatever generation, are not known for their patience. God knows I know from personal experience.
                It's simply becoming more and more commonplace for young people to arrive in the workforce with unrealistic expectations. And that's what older people are irritated about.

                Maybe those expectations were planted in their heads as Red Team said, who knows.
                “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  Yeah, in the real world, when a government cannot get its revenue because consumption is down, they come up with new taxes. Electricity consumption is down all across Canada but electric bills have gone up because of carbon and recovery tax.
                  Regardless of any of that, emission levels have still gone way down from what they were.

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  Trump's antics are hiccups for farmers. This year's contracts are set. Demand will not go down and the one pocketting the diffrerence is Beijing.
                  And the Democrats, because if Trump proceeds with this stupidity the Republicans will lose winnable seats.

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  Simply looking at jobs that pays $20+ per hour. Plumbers, concrete pourers, construction, the jobs that require people to get their hands dirty. Also, there are a number of surveys that states young people will not take jobs without access to personal social media.

                  You may not get rich with a work ethic but you certainly will not without one. Ever noticed that there are no Social Justice Warriors at Trade schools?
                  So your solution is to get people out of high paying high end jobs in manufacturing, technology etc. and getting them into lower paying jobs (which will also get replaced) because of "work ethic".

                  Here is a thought. Entrepreneurs are rich not necessarily because of work ethic (sure they do work hard) but because they are smart and have vision. The person whose code is smart is better than one who needs to write a lot of it.

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  I have yet to see robots that can survey roads, tear up dirt, paved roads, pour concrete, install machinery, and do quality assurance.
                  You have not seen robots or machines do these jobs? Seriously? Go and see how construction takes place in India and then compare to the way they happen in the US with a lot less hands. These will get further mechanized. Also you have not seen machinary installations and QA work automated?

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  Yeah, good luck with that.

                  1) Situational awareness is far more limited
                  Remember how everyone said that about every technological progress ever? Remember this -
                  "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
                  https://www.pcworld.com/article/1559...edictions.html

                  I do not know if driverless cars will succeed. I do know that sensors and responsive decision engines are making short work of your "Situational awareness"

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  2) When the company that makes the software no longer supports the software or hardware, they force you to rip out both to install new modules, adding expense that you do not need. JOHN DEERE is not very popular in Canada right now because of this reason. Farmers are not allowed to make changes to the computer hardware and software, requiring them to transport the equipment to a depot at $6000 a shot before the repair bill. JOHN DEERE no longer support the old module requiring the farmers to spend $25,000 to replace it with a model they do support.

                  Farmers turned to East European hacks to fix their own machines. JOHN DEERE has taken them to court for violating copyrights. Farmers are responding that they have a right to do their own repairs.
                  Completely different scenario. The manufacturers venturing into Automation are writing their own software and designing their own hardware. And they will have IT budgets to support this if it turns out to be useful

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  3) When USN Warships are still crashing into things, you have a long way to go before you get everything down to even acceptable levels.
                  That long way is 2030. Also, what will you crash into in the middle of the ocean?

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  Trump is right. Energy demands will not go down and despite what everyone else is saying, coal is cheap.
                  Are you also factoring in the environmental costs and the healthcare costs? Coal is not only expensive, it is stupid.
                  "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                    "Pay your dues" for me, has meant "Build up your resume, gain knowledge and experience, the kind found only by working in the real world, until you're no longer looking at entry-level jobs and you're a sought-after commodity."

                    In other words, you're not going to jump into a $75000/year salary right out of college.
                    In my city, we offered a new grad a sub 75K job. She got a 100K+ job with a sign on bonus. In Seattle or SFO, where you have got multiple high paying employers waiting to snatch up people, new grads have a lot of options
                    Last edited by antimony; 20 Apr 18,, 00:01.
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                      Self interest. Whether its military or trade. i am challenging this idea of long lasting damage that requires us to time travel into the future to verify

                      Astralis was talking military here

                      you make the same argument using trade

                      Why are they different ?

                      TTP talks are continuing with other countries who full well expect the US to join one day. Will the US be denied entry. No
                      Are you saying that environmental damage is easily rectified? Lets just suck all that sweet greenhouse gas right in and make the temperatures drop then.

                      Also will the US be denied entry into TTP? Depends on how much concessons they are wiling to give. I am reasonably certain there would be additional terms if US wants to be accomodated
                      "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        Regardless of any of that, emission levels have still gone way down from what they were.
                        Doesn't change the fact that it's a tax grab despite the fact that emissions have gone down.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        And the Democrats, because if Trump proceeds with this stupidity the Republicans will lose winnable seats.
                        Doesn't change the fact that soy bean crops are sold this year.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        So your solution is to get people out of high paying high end jobs in manufacturing, technology etc. and getting them into lower paying jobs (which will also get replaced) because of "work ethic".
                        Get what people out what high paying jobs? Those with high paying jobs are our generations. And we worked our asses off to get where we are.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        Here is a thought. Entrepreneurs are rich not necessarily because of work ethic (sure they do work hard) but because they are smart and have vision. The person whose code is smart is better than one who needs to write a lot of it.
                        And they're both losing their jobs but no one has yet to write code that can repair a crack toilet pipe.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        You have not seen robots or machines do these jobs? Seriously? Go and see how construction takes place in India and then compare to the way they happen in the US with a lot less hands. These will get further mechanized. Also you have not seen machinary installations and QA work automated?
                        No robot is going in to retool a factory and I have yet to see robots to survey a site and know where to lay pipes and roads.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        Remember how everyone said that about every technological progress ever? Remember this -

                        https://www.pcworld.com/article/1559...edictions.html
                        Yes. I also remember Toyota, Nissan, and Honda ending up with whole cargo stoarge of dead robots because they're no longer meeting specs. It's not the first time I saw technological revolution come to a screeching halt and this will probably be the last time for me because of my age.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        I do not know if driverless cars will succeed. I do know that sensors and responsive decision engines are making short work of your "Situational awareness"
                        No responsive decision engine is going to change the laws of physics. The decision to avoid a crash needs to be made at least 30-40 minutes before the crash itself. Too many factors to come in and not all of it under your remote control.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        Completely different scenario. The manufacturers venturing into Automation are writing their own software and designing their own hardware. And they will have IT budgets to support this if it turns out to be useful
                        Same scenario. If the companies decide to junk the hardware and software, it will be junk and they will replace it with their own new hardware. The fact that it's internal IT guys doing this does not mean the production guys didn't just got a whole bunch of headaches and heartaches.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        That long way is 2030. Also, what will you crash into in the middle of the ocean?
                        Pirates, ice bergs, storms. But your areas of worry are high traffic like harbours and the Straits and God help you in the middle of a war.

                        Originally posted by antimony View Post
                        Are you also factoring in the environmental costs and the healthcare costs? Coal is not only expensive, it is stupid.
                        Scrub the air filters. It's old proven technology and a lot cheaper to install than wind or solar.
                        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Apr 18,, 00:55.
                        Chimo

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                          I've seen it, personally, in multiple industries. No, not all young people. But to say "there is no one that expects this" is simply wrong.

                          I'm also not saying 'stay in one place'. I should've been more forthcoming with details. In my case I've worked in multiple industries since I was 15 years old: Retail, Building Trades, Factory, Customer Service Call Center, Microchip Broker and finally Logistics.

                          As I moved around, I picked up certain skills that were stepping stones to each new opportunity. I then stacked those stones, one on top of the other, so that they complimented each other and kept climbing up.

                          Then my golden opportunity arrived in 2011, and I was ready, able and willing to jump ship yet again, and grab the brass ring.

                          The point is, it didn't happen overnight. And young people, of whatever generation, are not known for their patience. God knows I know from personal experience.
                          It's simply becoming more and more commonplace for young people to arrive in the workforce with unrealistic expectations. And that's what older people are irritated about.

                          Maybe those expectations were planted in their heads as Red Team said, who knows.
                          I don't have issues with any of this, but this culture is not universal at all. You need an environment that's willing to let people take risks and enter stretch positions to build new skills that they do not currently have. Managers aren't incentivized to support this structure and employers only have weak incentives. The best way to create this kind of culture is to have a very vigorous job market so employers cannot continually look for unicorns.

                          The incentive structure for managers is totally different than the incentive structure for the employee. I've seen plenty of employees who have nothing left to learn because they've spent years in the current role (and this ain't a complicated role!) getting told they are too impatient when they want to pick up new things. Hell the guy next to me just left because of exactly this, and his former manager and director are both giving him the stink-eye. Extremely mature management!

                          Now, of course, I'm stuck with a pair of lovely incredible women who have paid their dues and have 30 years of experience, but have absolutely no idea how to do their jobs and need to be micro-managed because they don't give a shit. Oh, and the new girl who is only around because the VP likes her. Thanks for off-loading her on me, guys! The previous guy would've stayed for a simple title bump and 2% raise, but now I get the ditz because you got into a pointless dick measuring contest you had no hope of winning and adhered to stupid rules that cost the company in the end! Real effective management there!

                          When it comes to pay specifically, companies just do not offer internal raises to the same extent they do external hires. They are really hesitant to raise wages AT ALL. There was a really libertarian central bank president from MN, I forget his name. A lot of people in his area were complaining about shortages of skilled workers, so he suggested that the companies raise their wages. They were all flabber-gasted, and literally did not even understand the very concept. They understood paying more to get people INTO the area, from, say, Chicago or New York. but just paying more because there was a shortage? No.

                          Suffice to say, that particular central banker is a LOT less libertarian now.

                          It's just the market, so the cookies fall where they may. The only reason the guy NEXT to me got a lateral move was because a different set of guys also moved on to different departments. Their 2 best guys. Because that's how it goes: your best people move on, your worst people stay for the long haul! Unfortunately this means that team just has no secure talent pipeline so their succession planning is shit.

                          Personally I am also looking to make a move because the company has strict rules about when promotions can occur. Obviously I'm not waiting around if they can't guarantee anything if I can go pick up more skills, become more marketable, and make 15% more. Some of the team managers actually do have an issue with that, believe it or not.
                          Originally posted by Red Team View Post
                          I must admit, I was looking at things from a narrow point of view with respect to my area of study. In the big picture it's absolutely a broad, sociocultural, and sociopolitical issue that'll require years if not decades of legislative, economic, and bureaucratic change. With respect to the concept of "humans as widgets" well...that extreme is the reason why we still need unions.
                          "Humans as widgets" is a characteristic of the secondary job market. Most humans are not treated as widgets. It'd destroy morale and cost the company more money than it is worth.

                          Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          Don't know where you get your numbers.



                          BTW, that lowest earning 10% are journeymen plumbers, meaning they're apprentices. That means that they're pocketing $28K a year learning instead of shelling out an average $17K a year going to college. So, at the end of 4 years, the journeyman would be $112K ahead while the student is $68K behind. That makes a $180K difference between the two.

                          My point is is that it doesn't matter. Pick something you're good at (not necessary what you like) that pays the bills. Stick with it. Nothing is stopping anyone from landing that million dollar contract to install plumbing at the next Taj Mahal Casino provided that you do your homework.

                          Why not? Nothing teaches civil engineering like putting up houses.

                          Well, doesn't this sound good? No student loan and getting paid to learn.
                          The numbers are just coming from payscale right off of Google. Honestly, I don't even feel the need to look at the numbers. I grew up in a pretty wealthy neighborhood. Not insanely wealthy, but moderately wealthy: Michael Jordan lived nearby when he first started. Out of the kids I knew, their parents had jobs like engineer, doctor, lawyer, Polish Mobster, former Bears Wide Receiver, etc. And when I say "Polish Mobster," I don't mean "I heard my friend was in the mob!" I mean "this guy was extradited by the US government to Poland."

                          There weren't any plumbers. My Dad was blue-collar, but we only lived there because my grandparents bought the house before the neighborhood became wealthy. Even now, I live in a similar neighborhood because my WIFE makes a lot of money, and all the guys around here are doing the same stuff. Except now there are a bunch of guys in tech, too.

                          If you really want to work a trade, go for it. Most of the guys I know like to work with their hands in their free-time, although we vary pretty widely in skill-level. I'm just telling you that these families can look around them and see the high-paying jobs, and they direct their kids to said jobs. The problem THEY have is when their stupid kids decide to major in theater or something like that.
                          Last edited by GVChamp; 20 Apr 18,, 02:57.
                          "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            worker productivity and efficiency are at historical highs, so the idea that any one generation is harder working or lazier than another is nonsensical.

                            what we see as populist rage now is simply the economic degradation of what was considered basic principles of being middle-class: a house, two kids, college. it's not that the workers are lazier, but that the fruits of their labor are very obviously going elsewhere. you're not going to support that with the income from one semi-skilled worker. for that matter, these days it's difficult even with the income from two white-collar professionals!

                            the costs of all those things have exploded, far beyond the income growth. hell, even cost of medicine is going through the roof.

                            that's why even the GOP has turned populist in propaganda these days.
                            100% correct. When my parents were buying a house it was relatively easy for a family on an average single income to buy a house. Housing cost about 4x weekly earnings. Now it is 12x weekly earnings, so even two people working full time are still well behind, and that isn't taking into account increasing costs in other areas. Fortunately we don't have your mind numbingly stupid healthcare system or huge college fees, but costs are still an issue in many areas of life.

                            There are a lot of people who understand that many things have become more difficult and they are looking for reasons. That is a boon for populists of all stripes.

                            To me the laziest possible thing is the immediate assumption that young people are lazy. I work with a LOT of under 30s. They work hard. Often harder than me. Again, for comparison, my folks got to work standard hours - generally a 40 hour week. In most professional workplaces (including mine) people are expected to work 50-60 hours a week on a regular basis without compensation for the extra 10-20 hours. Plenty of those people are under 30. For them it is just normal.

                            I should add that I also work with a fair number of over 50s (of whom I will be one in a few years). If complaining about every fucking thing in creation (especially young people) boosted productivity they would be the most productive generation in human history. My god they can complain. I find under 30s work just as hard with a fraction the whining.
                            Last edited by Bigfella; 20 Apr 18,, 03:32.
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                            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              How much of that is my generation or the generation that we taught?
                              Next to none of that is your generation. Most of them are moving out of the workforce. And you don't get to take credit just for 'teaching'. The people who are 'doing' get the credit for their actions.

                              My grandparents thought my parents generation (which is roughly your generation) would be the end of Western civilization. My parents generation thought the same of mine and my generation spends an absurd amount of time saying all the same things about their children's generation. No doubt they too will hurl all the same accusations when they get old & whiny.

                              Different generation, same BS. Each generation is different. Each has its good & bad points, each is unfairly judged by previous generations. From my own experience most under 30s are pretty impressive.
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                              Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                              • Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                                Next to none of that is your generation. Most of them are moving out of the workforce. And you don't get to take credit just for 'teaching'. The people who are 'doing' get the credit for their actions.
                                Not in the real world. You don't go into a job knowing everything. My CO's job was to get me ready to replace him just as my job was to get ready my DCO to replace me. You get credit for learning the ropes but hell to be paid if you think you know more than your boss at running his business. You're hired to make money for your boss and that means learning how the boss expects you to work; not doing your own thing.
                                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Apr 18,, 04:00.
                                Chimo

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