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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #1366
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    wooglin,



    read her letter.
    Read her testimony

    The letter included my name, but also a request that it be kept confidential. My hope was that providing the information confidentially would be sufficient to allow the Senate to consider Mr. Kavanaugh’s serious misconduct without having to make myself, my family or anyone’s family vulnerable to the personal attacks and invasions of privacy that we have faced since my name became public.

    In a letter dated August 31st, Senator Feinstein wrote that she would not share the letter without my explicit consent, and I appreciated this commitment. Sexual assault victims should be able to decide for themselves when and whether their private experience is made public.
    I can see where there would be confusion here though. Either way, Feinstein sat on it for a month before somebody took the decision away from Ford.

    With a background check for a Supreme Court nominee,...
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/u...judiciary.html

    Ok. However, the limited scope and time was what was requested according to the NYT article, and the hearing I watched, not determined by the WH.

    Also the actual judiciary report says the FBI decided the witnesses to interview.

    https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/pre...cutive-summary
    Last edited by Wooglin; 08 Oct 18, at 01:11.

  2. #1367
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    wooglin,

    I can see where there would be confusion here though. Either way, Feinstein sat on it for a month before somebody took the decision away from Ford.
    Feinstein sat on it at the request of Ford. yes, it leaked but the bureau chief who first published the story of the letter said he didn't get it from Feinstein or her staff.

    Ok. However, the limited scope and time was what was requested according to the NYT article, and the hearing I watched, not determined by the WH.

    Also the actual judiciary report says the FBI decided the witnesses to interview.
    yes, the limited time was decided by the "gentleman's agreement" that Flake reached-- which, as final arbiter, the WH agreed to.

    the scope was not decided by that agreement. instead, it defaulted to that of the limited, standard background check...and that, in turn, was further limited by the various restrictions the WH put on.

    Initially, the White House also reportedly limited whom the FBI could talk to, restricting it to two of Kavanaugh’s high school friends, one of Ford’s high school friends, and Ramirez. It was only after the Senate’s Republican swing votes and Democrats raised a fuss that the White House allowed the FBI to talk to more people, but, again, only on the condition that the full investigation could still take no longer than a week.

    Even then, the FBI didn’t talk to Ford or Kavanaugh, because, according to Bloomberg, it never got clear guidance from the White House that it could talk to them, while the White House indicated that the testimony Ford and Kavanaugh gave to the Senate should suffice for the FBI’s purposes. And there were more than a dozen other people whom Democrats wanted interviews for that the FBI never got to.

    “Would I have wanted to interview Dr. Blasey Ford and Judge Kavanaugh after I had interviewed everyone else? Yes,” Gagliano said. But, he added, he doesn’t know why the FBI didn’t talk to them.

    Since this wasn’t a criminal investigation, the FBI also couldn’t issue subpoenas. So if people declined interviews, agents couldn’t force them to talk. Indeed, one person whom the FBI approached declined an interview, according to Sen. Grassley’s executive summary.

    And if the FBI wanted some records or other physical evidence, it would have to hope that whoever possessed the evidence turned it over on request. This was also relevant in the Kavanaugh case: Ford said that it would be helpful if she saw employment records for Kavanaugh’s friend, Mark Judge, because it would help her narrow down the date of the alleged sexual assault — a key fact in the allegations that remains in dispute. But the FBI wasn’t authorized, according to NBC News, to get these records, and it couldn’t have forced anyone to turn them over even if it was.

    As the FBI wrapped up its investigation, there was another limit: It couldn’t provide a conclusion. For these kinds of background checks, the bureau presents the evidence it got from interviews and otherwise in a report to the White House and Senate, and the White House and Senate then reach their own conclusions about what the evidence says. The White House and Senate don’t even have to release the full findings to the public — and they haven’t so far in this case.

    In short, the FBI was limited in its investigation every step of the way. There was the time limit. There were the limits on interviews. There were limits on subpoenas and physical evidence. The FBI couldn’t even reach a conclusion or release its findings to the public.
    basically, Flake's political posturing was enough to force a limited background check investigation. Flake -wanted- a conservative justice, but just didn't like how the default position of McConnell was to ram things through. the WH wanted to make sure that the parameters of the investigation would be enough to satisfy the swing votes of Flake, Collins, and Murkowski, and not a whit more.

    you're certainly right that this isn't a criminal investigation and shouldn't be treated as such without direct evidence of wrongdoing. on the other hand, the allegations were deemed "credible" by the President himself and from an non-partisan standpoint, the investigation could have easily been freed from a number of limitations (including time) without impact to even the political clock, because McConnell had until the rest of the year to get Kavanaugh through.
    Last edited by astralis; 08 Oct 18, at 05:47.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #1368
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    without impact to even the political clock, because McConnell had until the rest of the year to get Kavanaugh through.
    This just isn't true, unfortunately. In the actual timeline, as soon as Ford's claims were taken seriously, less plausible and increasingly ridiculous accusations came out of the wood-work. Democratic senators took these as highly credible and a reason to immediately pull Kav's nomination, not to launch an investigation. That's the problem when you incentivize sketchy accusations, you immediately set-up perverse incentives. In the case of Ramirez, it was someone "helpfully" helping her to "remember," in the case of Avenatti it was Trump-style "I want to be famous"

    If we actually let this go on through the lame-duck session, we would probably have "credible" accusations that Kav is actually resurrected Hitler sent by Elron Hubbard to enslave all humans to the Arachnid Dynasty of Klendathu, with the entire Democratic establishment and the media gravely nodding and talking about how seriously we must take these accusations because Miss Cleo saw it in her crystal ball and we must #believewomen.

    I totally agree that this is the natural course of events if we had a reasonable political system, but we don't. That's not to solely blame Democrats, a sane GOP should have been hesitant to appoint Kav, and probably would never have had Kav in a situation to be on the SC in the first place, because we never would have been put on an appeals court in the early 00s. Dude seems like a crappy jurist.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 08 Oct 18, at 17:24.
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    GVChamp,

    This just isn't true, unfortunately. In the actual timeline, as soon as Ford's claims were taken seriously, less plausible and increasingly ridiculous accusations came out of the wood-work. Democratic senators took these as highly credible and a reason to immediately pull Kav's nomination, not to launch an investigation. That's the problem when you incentivize sketchy accusations, you immediately set-up perverse incentives. In the case of Ramirez, it was someone "helpfully" helping her to "remember," in the case of Avenatti it was Trump-style "I want to be famous"
    persuading Democratic senators wasn't the issue, it was persuading the two-three swing Republican senators...and the less plausible accusations actually backfired. so the effect of those accusations on the political timeline is zero, or rather even -beneficial- for the GOP, as demonstrated by their rising chances of holding the Senate.

    so say Flake agreed to a longer investigation of say a month, without the WH actually interfering and without the silly "treat the report as if it contained the nation's nuclear codes" secrecy at the end. it's -still- extremely unlikely that anything amounting to actual evidence pops up given the span of years. all of this stupid crap spoke to the uncertainty of the GOP in this nomination, that there would be plausible dirt that would screw up the nom-- and thus they had to ram this through as fast as they could.

    I totally agree that this is the natural course of events if we had a reasonable political system, but we don't. That's not to solely blame Democrats, a sane GOP should have been hesitant to appoint Kav, and probably would never have had Kav in a situation to be on the SC in the first place, because we never would have been put on an appeals court in the early 00s. Dude seems like a crappy jurist.
    well, that and the fact that the GOP didn't -have- to choose Kav, it's not as if he's the only conservative jurist around. as z mentioned, there are more conservative options out there. but this fits into the Trumpian-model of never apologizing, and using the fallout as culture-war touchpoints to energize the base.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #1370
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    Has anyone ever seen the answer to the question....Who paid off the $200,000 in debt Kav had for his Nationals season tickets?

    Serious question....
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Has anyone ever seen the answer to the question....Who paid off the $200,000 in debt Kav had for his Nationals season tickets?

    Serious question....
    Not really or you'd have known the answer. It was a group buy per CNN.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/12/polit...als/index.html

  7. #1372
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    wooglin,



    Feinstein sat on it at the request of Ford. yes, it leaked but the bureau chief who first published the story of the letter said he didn't get it from Feinstein or her staff.
    She sat on it for a month before she even reached out to Ford. Within two weeks of even first speaking to Ford it was leaked.



    yes, the limited time was decided by the "gentleman's agreement" that Flake reached-- which, as final arbiter, the WH agreed to.

    the scope was not decided by that agreement. instead, it defaulted to that of the limited, standard background check...and that, in turn, was further limited by the various restrictions the WH put on.



    basically, Flake's political posturing was enough to force a limited background check investigation. Flake -wanted- a conservative justice, but just didn't like how the default position of McConnell was to ram things through. the WH wanted to make sure that the parameters of the investigation would be enough to satisfy the swing votes of Flake, Collins, and Murkowski, and not a whit more.

    you're certainly right that this isn't a criminal investigation and shouldn't be treated as such without direct evidence of wrongdoing. on the other hand, the allegations were deemed "credible" by the President himself and from an non-partisan standpoint, the investigation could have easily been freed from a number of limitations (including time) without impact to even the political clock, because McConnell had until the rest of the year to get Kavanaugh through.
    Who else was the FBI supposed to talk to that could have suddenly corroborated the story? Ford already gave hours of testimony, as did Kavanaugh. Who was left out that should have been interviewed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wooglin View Post
    Who else was the FBI supposed to talk to that could have suddenly corroborated the story? Ford already gave hours of testimony, as did Kavanaugh. Who was left out that should have been interviewed?
    It was never about Ford's story though. That is why Ford's team never turned over the therapy notes or actual polygraph records. It was all political theater. They knew her story would fall apart upon close examination. The sex crimes prosecutor blew holes in her story big enough to drive my Kenworth through. Thats why the Dems shifted on to his high school and college drinking, even though they love a founding member of the Choon Gang and wished he'd been able to have a third term. I guess rendering legal decisions as 1 of 9 is more important that controlling the nuclear football where you are 1 of 1 and literally have the power to end the human race.

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    wooglin,

    Who else was the FBI supposed to talk to that could have suddenly corroborated the story? Ford already gave hours of testimony, as did Kavanaugh. Who was left out that should have been interviewed?
    congressional testimony isn't the same as getting an FBI interview.

    in any case, if this was all political theater with a story that would "fall apart upon close examination", the GOP would not be interested in a (less than) one week rush job investigation with left/right boundaries dictated by the WH. instead, from a political standpoint the GOP would want the investigation to go on and on, in detail with every accuser, to reveal the depths of Democratic perfidy and to demonstrate the innocence of their man. finding out julie swetnick, let alone dr ford, were lying in a coordinated Democratic attempt at taking down Kavanaugh? that would destroy the impending midterm blue wave and simultaneously enrage the conservative base like no other.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    wooglin,



    congressional testimony isn't the same as getting an FBI interview.

    in any case, if this was all political theater with a story that would "fall apart upon close examination", the GOP would not be interested in a (less than) one week rush job investigation with left/right boundaries dictated by the WH. instead, from a political standpoint the GOP would want the investigation to go on and on, in detail with every accuser, to reveal the depths of Democratic perfidy and to demonstrate the innocence of their man. finding out julie swetnick, let alone dr ford, were lying in a coordinated Democratic attempt at taking down Kavanaugh? that would destroy the impending midterm blue wave and simultaneously enrage the conservative base like no other.
    Actually senate investigators work exactly like the FBI as far as the law goes. Lying to them holds the exact same testimony. So once someone gives a sworn statement to the senate any changes can bring perjury charges. There was zero chance Dr. Ford's named witnesses were going to suddenly and dramatically change their testimony and incur the legal liability that came with it. It doesn't matter if the FBI was given a week or a year same results. The only reason the Dems wanted more time was to try and stretch out the process to hopefully make the pressure so unbearable that either Kavanaugh would withdraw or the President would do it for him.

    Democrat perfidy was already on the table. Between Dr. Ford's mistatements that always seemed to serve her, the last minute reveal, Avanatti's hyperbolic injection of himself into the fray and the various statements from Dem Senators and ativist that attacked the very foundations of civil society the base was fired up. Several Dem senators in Trump states saw their numbers collapse. I love that HRC jumped into the fray after the fact and called on Dems to get even more violent. Her timing could not have been worse for the Dems. She is the git that keeps on giving. Sadly the Left has so worked itself into a frenzy another nutjob is going to take thier wods for real and do something we will all regret. Its only a matter of time.

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    well, we're going around in circles now, so i'll just say that there's a reason why Kavanaugh has the lowest support rating of any Supreme Court nominee. and that, combined with how he got in, means it will be more likely that the next time Dems hold power (whether it's 4, 8, etc) years...court-packing will be on the agenda, because from a liberal standpoint, the Republicans have already effectively packed the court.

    you can argue whether or not this is correct, i'm just telling you what the left is thinking.

    and as i said, ultimately this will do damage to the conservative cause because the Supreme Court is inherently a conservative institution.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Pretty sure Kavanaugh perjured himself in his testimony - as did Sessions... but hey Trumpkin cannot open his mouth without lying. When lying and ignoring facts becomes the norm you are in a dangerous place. Election falsification should be a real fear right now.

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    I thought this ad was funny.

    What I don't want to see is the Bills winning a Super Bowl. As long as I'm alive that doesn't happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post

    Democrat perfidy was already on the table. Between Dr. Ford's mistatements that always seemed to serve her, the last minute reveal, Avanatti's hyperbolic injection of himself into the fray and the various statements from Dem Senators and ativist that attacked the very foundations of civil society the base was fired up. Several Dem senators in Trump states saw their numbers collapse. I love that HRC jumped into the fray after the fact and called on Dems to get even more violent. Her timing could not have been worse for the Dems. She is the git that keeps on giving. Sadly the Left has so worked itself into a frenzy another nutjob is going to take thier wods for real and do something we will all regret. Its only a matter of time.
    Hmm, it seems from both sides...

  15. #1380
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Actually senate investigators work exactly like the FBI as far as the law goes.
    Did they break the law by not investigating properly then?

    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Democrat perfidy was already on the table. Between Dr. Ford's mistatements that always seemed to serve her, the last minute reveal, Avanatti's hyperbolic injection of himself into the fray and the various statements from Dem Senators and ativist that attacked the very foundations of civil society the base was fired up. Several Dem senators in Trump states saw their numbers collapse. I love that HRC jumped into the fray after the fact and called on Dems to get even more violent. Her timing could not have been worse for the Dems. She is the git that keeps on giving. Sadly the Left has so worked itself into a frenzy another nutjob is going to take thier wods for real and do something we will all regret. Its only a matter of time.
    Well I am not 'the left'. I am a fiscal conservative - unlike your President, a freedom supporter - unlike your President, and an honest patriot of the West rather a lying narcissist who fawns on dictators. Your President is everything I do not believe in about privilege and all his lies. Are you still going to tell me - as he did - that he never had anything to do Muscovy? That is the other thing I am not but that he is; a traitor of the general Western Enlightenment values. The man needs to be ashes for your freedom and mine.

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