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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #1186
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Didn't know you were such a liberal snowflake suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome.
    Better be careful, somebody might come along and post a huge jpeg of Trump with big block letters of wishful thinking.
    Dealing with the Trumpets is getting unbelievable. There is practically nothing they will not believe at this point. Granted that I only know a couple handfuls between friends and family, but they are all pretty much in the "hook, line, and sinker" camp. Everything is Witch Hunt or a conspiracy theory of some sort or another. Occam's Razor is definitely that Trump is a slimeball. You have to be delusional to take Trump's honor over Mueller's.

    The various Never-Trumpers I know (who are even less numerous) haven't really budged an inch.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    GVChamp,

    this is the argument that Jennifer Rubin at the Washington Post points out, but Trump is a cultural avatar for the Republican base and that's much more politically powerful than policy efficiency.
    Politically powerful among the GOP Base, not so politically powerful among the rest of the population. The primary is exactly the place where you need to be fighting for the future of your party.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  2. #1187
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    that's a stupid calculation, even if we're talking straight politics and nothing else.

    Clinton won the '96 election because he was a reasonably competent President and he had a booming economy. House Republicans overreached via impeachment given the circumstances of the Clinton case, but the overall political effect of them doing so was inconsequential compared to these greater aforementioned factors.

    Trump's case is immeasurably different. his incompetence is evident and the only thing holding him up at all is the economy.

    moreover, the structural Dem weakness is in Congress-- not the Presidential election, where Dems have structural strengths.

    if there's a wave election, as a Dem I want the Dems to take full advantage now, not "pass" because of minor consequences in 2 years' time.

    and speaking as an American, and NOT a partisan, I want Congress to start doing its job as a legitimate check on the executive, to include serious investigations into executive wrongdoing.
    the only way for America's progress is by burning the GOP to the ground. That is not going to happen if the Dems get the House and Trump can amp up his usual blame game.

    By the way, 44% of the country disagrees when you rail about Trump's incompetency
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  3. #1188
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    GVChamp,

    Politically powerful among the GOP Base, not so politically powerful among the rest of the population. The primary is exactly the place where you need to be fighting for the future of your party.
    hate to break it to you, but it's the base that votes in primaries, lol.

    frankly the only way there's a break from Trump at this point in time within the GOP is for the American economy to slag down. that's possible by 2020, but I don't wish that.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  4. #1189
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    antimony,

    the only way for America's progress is by burning the GOP to the ground. That is not going to happen if the Dems get the House and Trump can amp up his usual blame game.
    "burning the GOP to the ground" is simply not going to happen. in fact, it would require -two- enormous wave elections, beyond even the most Dem-optimistic predictions, for the Democrats to get to where they were in 2009. and as you know, the GOP back then could -still- play a weak hand well.

    Trump and the GOP can always amp up a blame game regardless of what the Dems do. taking the House gives the Dems some power, which is a hell of a lot better than no power at all and mentally jerking off to visions of liberal dominance after the GOP turns America into a hellhole...:-) in fact, this is similar to some of the conservative dreams on WAB a few years back about California melting down and turning red again, lol.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #1190
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    Quote Originally Posted by rj1 View Post
    The ironic thing to me about Trump is I really don't care about him banging a porn star as far as the actual act of it, my hatred of him is more policy-based, but I remember sitting in a church circa 2004, 2005 talking with a few other people and politics for some reason came up. One of the ladies at the table then compared the criticism of then-president Bush to previous president Clinton and then said "like he was a strong Christian".

    These same people are now probably Trump's biggest fans.
    When it comes to Trump's base (which is now a majority of the republican base I guess looking at primary results) all of his faults which would otherwise rile up conservatives (adultery, corruption, general stupidity, etc.) take a back seat to the fact that he hates (non-white) immigrants and is trying to stop them with whatever means possible (upto and including putting kids in cages). That trumps (no pun intended) everything else. It explains why so many white women voted for him despite the pussy-grabbing tape, why Obama was a "tyrant" but Trump is great, why the mountain of evidence of corruption by his administration can be completely ignored, why him cheating on his pregnant wife is not an issue, starting a trade war is no big deal, deranged early morning twitter rants are totally normal, making fun of a PoW and US Senator is hilarious. Everything.

    If collusion with Russia is proved, this will be extended further. We already have trump supporters wearing T-shirts saying "I'd rather be Russian than a Democrat". So you know they are willing to forgive that as well. He can outsource the state department to Russia for all they care, as long as he continues building that wall.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 24 Aug 18, at 00:38.

  6. #1191
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    the only way for America's progress is by burning the GOP to the ground. That is not going to happen if the Dems get the House and Trump can amp up his usual blame game.

    By the way, 44% of the country disagrees when you rail about Trump's incompetency
    Where have you been for the past 18 months? The GOP is committing suicide, right now.
    Trust me?
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  7. #1192
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    the GOP is making a bunch of really stupid political moves, but their political dominance is such that they will have to do it repeatedly for the Dems to get real, actionable political power back.

    OTOH had HRC won the Presidency, the Congressional GOP would likely have had a shot at supermajority status in 2018 or 2020.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  8. #1193
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    The Democrats' real problem is they're just dead at the local level once you venture outside large cities. Since political positions unless you're a celebrity of some kind are mostly progressive (start out local, work up to regional, work up to national), there's large areas they have no "bench" to speak of. We're two years out and the Indiana Democrats have no one out acting like he or she will run for governor, meanwhile the mayor of South Bend wants to run for president. The one real critique that Democrats in the know will give you about Obama is under his reign the party only cared about the presidency. Everything else was just ignored. (That is absolutely Trump's point of view, although the Republicans underneath may be able to withstand the tide because Republicans tend to believe in organization more than Democrats do.) The Democrats where I am in a city where they really should be stronger are organizationally a joke. They won't be able to effect real change until they can become a national party instead of just a "big cities and some suburban voters" party.
    Last edited by rj1; 24 Aug 18, at 16:31.

  9. #1194
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    So I just started catching up on today email and apparently Allen Weisselberg has flipped. He is like the book keeper of Trumpkin Org. apparently. If he spills the beans Trumpkin is over. If Cohen was the "end of the beginning" then the book keeper is "the beginning of the end." In a way I feel sorry for Trumpkin; he is just a narcissist basically and literally can't help it. Shame he was not brought down to earth earlier but the Lord works in very mysterious ways.

  10. #1195
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post

    and in unrelated but relevant corruption issues, oh, the first 2 congressmen to support Trump, Collins and Hunter.
    Wow, it looks like Hunter has thrown his wife to the wolves. What a classy gentleman. We are in an age where no one takes responsibility for anything any more. My wife did it. I blacked out and don't recall stabbing her. It was the drugs not me.

    "She was also the campaign manager, so whatever she did that'll be looked at too, I'm sure," Hunter said of his wife, Margaret. "But I didn't do it. I didn't spend any money illegally."


    Ooomph.

  11. #1196
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    So sad.
    The Tibbetts family asked that the murder of their daughter not be politicalized. Clearly Trump can't respect the wished of the family whatsoever as he used her death today in his speech in Ohio.
    The man has no shame.

  12. #1197
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    Netanyahu's benefactor, Sheldon Adelson has been extremely grateful to Trump for walking away from the Iran nuclear agreement

    $55 million in total

    Republican megadonors Sheldon and Miriam Adelson combined to give $25 million to the Senate Leadership Fund, a super PAC dedicated to protecting the GOP majority in the United States Senate.
    Their combined contribution made up nearly all of the $26 million haul that the PAC raised in July, according to new filings with the Federal Election Commission.
    In May, the Adelsons dished out $30 million to the Congressional Leadership Fund, a super PAC which aims to keep Republicans in control of the House.
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/21/shel...e-gop-pac.html

  13. #1198
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So I just started catching up on today email and apparently Allen Weisselberg has flipped. He is like the book keeper of Trumpkin Org. apparently. If he spills the beans Trumpkin is over. If Cohen was the "end of the beginning" then the book keeper is "the beginning of the end." In a way I feel sorry for Trumpkin; he is just a narcissist basically and literally can't help it. Shame he was not brought down to earth earlier but the Lord works in very mysterious ways.
    It’s always the bookkeeper who turns, and brings down the capo, the Don...
    Trust me?
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  14. #1199
    Senior Contributor bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    When exactly did loyalty to the party surpass loyalty to the nation?
    It's a very Leninist concept, and one that has only recently crept into American politics.
    Looks like the "party before country" concept corresponds with the rise of radical liberalism, but you see that on both sides to some extent. Just ask yourself, who is openly talking about how "outdated" the Constitution is and is looking at gutting it.
    Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

  15. #1200
    Senior Contributor bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    I think, if you examined history close enough you'll find that no US President since Washington has been the kind of clean whistle your talking about. People are people, they all have their faults and issues and no one is going to get to the Presidency without making deals and compromises to get there. I think the best you can hope for is an OK, reasonably honest candidate who has a line they won't cross in terms of ethics and deal making. The real problem with politics in the US and elsewhere is that it has become so partizan/polarized.

    Imagine for a minute that such a person as I described managed to get nominated by either of the major parties. As things stand it wouldn't matter whether they stood for the Dems or the Reps. Hard core supporters on the opposite side would simply refuse to consider the possibility that a candidate from the opposing party might just be even passably honest. Every word out of their mouths and everything they ever did would be reviewed until something was found that justified demonizing them. And since you don't have compulsory voting large chunks of the middle ground who might be prepared to give that person a chance if they could hear anything over all the vitriol just give up and don't vote - which just hands more power to the groups causing most for the problems in the first place because the haters will always vote.
    No person is without guilt, that is to be sure, However the level of sin in Washington has grown to the extent that when someone is found of wrong doing there is no shock...other that the person in question was actually caught and punished, which usually means turning to the private sector and still making a mint. The left hates Trump because he defeated, and exposed Hillary. He also is erasing all the social gains the left has made. The right hates Trump because he isnt one of their own, and thus dont have him under their thumb. Both sides dont want him because he isnt part of the Washington process. The biggest thing going for Trump was the movement from the moderates who are clearly sick and tired of the status quo and wanted an outsider to shake things up. Wish granted. Trump stood up and faced the hate directed towards him from all sides and in the eyes of the voters that made him a fighter and that is what his supporters were looking for. Trump is in the Whitehouse because he was able to play the republicans against the democrats and was seen as an outsider to Washington politics. He isnt a polished speaker and has the social graces of a wildebeest, but he was just smart enough to be at the right place at the right time to be our president. At least he is trying to maintain the illusion of putting the country first. Obama didnt even try to do that and the country couldnt stomach another term of that.
    Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

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