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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #1171
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    To hear Trump and Trump's supporters tell it, nothing wrong happened and this is just a witchhunt.

    Trump, him I can can understand. I worked for a man very much like him for 5 years: Textbook case of a narcissitic sociopath.

    His supporters though...some very smart people are somehow ignoring all of this. Ignorning Trump's thousands (literally) of lies, some of them staggering in their implications.

    His supporters claim he's a "smart successful businessman", while ignoring his shocking ignorance of economics.

    They love his "policies" while shrugging off his Orwellian denials of reality.

    What in the actual f--k is WRONG with these people??
    There are always hanger on's who like to attach themselves to such a person for there own personal benefit. Every autocrat and every dictator has had such people hanging on their coattails for profit. Speer, an admittedly intelligent man, worked for Hitler. His only saving grace, if you want to call it that, is that he understood and took responsibility for what happened under Hitler while the others continued to deny knowledge at Nuremberg.

  3. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    To hear Trump and Trump's supporters tell it, nothing wrong happened and this is just a witchhunt.

    Trump, him I can can understand. I worked for a man very much like him for 5 years: Textbook case of a narcissitic sociopath.

    His supporters though...some very smart people are somehow ignoring all of this. Ignorning Trump's thousands (literally) of lies, some of them staggering in their implications.

    His supporters claim he's a "smart successful businessman", while ignoring his shocking ignorance of economics.

    They love his "policies" while shrugging off his Orwellian denials of reality.

    What in the actual f--k is WRONG with these people??
    I think these people are thinking about what the alternative is. Hang with Trump until the midterms are over or hang it up and let the democrats regain control. From the beginning no one really liked Trump. He was seen as the alternative to politics as usual and slightly better than having Hillary in the Whitehouse. Everyone knew Trump is a first class ass so no surprises there. He is also dumb as a box of rocks but somehow has managed to beat the democrats at just about everything. That does mean something to his "supporters" as the reason they voted for him in the first place was to steer the country to the right, and that he has done. I am sure that the country would rally behind an honest politician that would put the country first. The problem is that no such person exists. Once one gets to that level of power and influence to run for office, you have turned into one of the worse people the country has. Corruption is an epidemic in D.C. and you dont have to look very hard at any one in office to find evidence of it. There is also a lot of evidence that points to such people rarely get punished. When they do it is usually a slap on the wrist. In the end, when all the pros and cons are weighed they will almost always benefit from their illegal actions. Pick someone at random and give Mueller a year and he will find something.
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  4. #1174
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    I think these people are thinking about what the alternative is. Hang with Trump until the midterms are over or hang it up and let the democrats regain control. From the beginning no one really liked Trump. He was seen as the alternative to politics as usual and slightly better than having Hillary in the Whitehouse. Everyone knew Trump is a first class ass so no surprises there. He is also dumb as a box of rocks but somehow has managed to beat the democrats at just about everything. That does mean something to his "supporters" as the reason they voted for him in the first place was to steer the country to the right, and that he has done. I am sure that the country would rally behind an honest politician that would put the country first. The problem is that no such person exists. Once one gets to that level of power and influence to run for office, you have turned into one of the worse people the country has. Corruption is an epidemic in D.C. and you dont have to look very hard at any one in office to find evidence of it. There is also a lot of evidence that points to such people rarely get punished. When they do it is usually a slap on the wrist. In the end, when all the pros and cons are weighed they will almost always benefit from their illegal actions. Pick someone at random and give Mueller a year and he will find something.
    When exactly did loyalty to the party surpass loyalty to the nation?
    It's a very Leninist concept, and one that has only recently crept into American politics.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  5. #1175
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    I am sure that the country would rally behind an honest politician that would put the country first. The problem is that no such person exists.
    I think, if you examined history close enough you'll find that no US President since Washington has been the kind of clean whistle your talking about. People are people, they all have their faults and issues and no one is going to get to the Presidency without making deals and compromises to get there. I think the best you can hope for is an OK, reasonably honest candidate who has a line they won't cross in terms of ethics and deal making. The real problem with politics in the US and elsewhere is that it has become so partizan/polarized.

    Imagine for a minute that such a person as I described managed to get nominated by either of the major parties. As things stand it wouldn't matter whether they stood for the Dems or the Reps. Hard core supporters on the opposite side would simply refuse to consider the possibility that a candidate from the opposing party might just be even passably honest. Every word out of their mouths and everything they ever did would be reviewed until something was found that justified demonizing them. And since you don't have compulsory voting large chunks of the middle ground who might be prepared to give that person a chance if they could hear anything over all the vitriol just give up and don't vote - which just hands more power to the groups causing most for the problems in the first place because the haters will always vote.
    Last edited by Monash; 24 Aug 18, at 00:48.
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    I think these people are thinking about what the alternative is. Hang with Trump until the midterms are over or hang it up and let the democrats regain control. From the beginning no one really liked Trump. He was seen as the alternative to politics as usual and slightly better than having Hillary in the Whitehouse. Everyone knew Trump is a first class ass so no surprises there. He is also dumb as a box of rocks but somehow has managed to beat the democrats at just about everything. That does mean something to his "supporters" as the reason they voted for him in the first place was to steer the country to the right, and that he has done. I am sure that the country would rally behind an honest politician that would put the country first. The problem is that no such person exists. Once one gets to that level of power and influence to run for office, you have turned into one of the worse people the country has. Corruption is an epidemic in D.C. and you dont have to look very hard at any one in office to find evidence of it. There is also a lot of evidence that points to such people rarely get punished. When they do it is usually a slap on the wrist. In the end, when all the pros and cons are weighed they will almost always benefit from their illegal actions. Pick someone at random and give Mueller a year and he will find something.
    false equivalence.

    IE, there's a good reason why Obama and Bush never faced a special counsel, and why despite the best efforts of the Republicans, they couldn't actually -pin- anything on HRC.

    for that matter, Obama was about as ethically honest and -personally good- of a politician as they come, and Republicans still detested him like the coming of the anti-Christ.

    i detest this "they are all crooks and charlatans" argument because it is the precise cynical argument that truly corrupt dictatorial regimes use against democratic governance. yes, there are SOME crooks and liars, such as the current US President and people like Representative Duncan Hunter. they will be removed, whether sooner or late, and better people will take their place.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteDreams View Post
    TRUMP IS WINNING
    Denial...it's not just a river in Egypt anymore.

    Perhaps you could elucidate Trump and his winning for us.

    The North Korea "deal"?

    His magical "tax cuts"?

    While at the same time, you can blithely ignore the legal shit storm that's approaching your Dear Leader like an avalanche. And all the Orwellian doublespeak in the world isn't going to stop it.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
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  8. #1178
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    false equivalence.

    IE, there's a good reason why Obama and Bush never faced a special counsel, and why despite the best efforts of the Republicans, they couldn't actually -pin- anything on HRC.

    for that matter, Obama was about as ethically honest and -personally good- of a politician as they come, and Republicans still detested him like the coming of the anti-Christ.

    i detest this "they are all crooks and charlatans" argument because it is the precise cynical argument that truly corrupt dictatorial regimes use against democratic governance. yes, there are SOME crooks and liars, such as the current US President and people like Representative Duncan Hunter. they will be removed, whether sooner or late, and better people will take their place.
    Agreed. I thought Bush was a clown (thanks for Iraq and Afghanistan Georgie) and Obama was a lightweight False Messiah that believed his own fawning press, but I've never seen anything like Donald Trump and his crime family in my 42 years.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  9. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonehead View Post
    I think these people are thinking about what the alternative is. Hang with Trump until the midterms are over or hang it up and let the democrats regain control. From the beginning no one really liked Trump. He was seen as the alternative to politics as usual and slightly better than having Hillary in the Whitehouse. Everyone knew Trump is a first class ass so no surprises there. He is also dumb as a box of rocks but somehow has managed to beat the democrats at just about everything. That does mean something to his "supporters" as the reason they voted for him in the first place was to steer the country to the right, and that he has done. I am sure that the country would rally behind an honest politician that would put the country first. The problem is that no such person exists. Once one gets to that level of power and influence to run for office, you have turned into one of the worse people the country has. Corruption is an epidemic in D.C. and you dont have to look very hard at any one in office to find evidence of it. There is also a lot of evidence that points to such people rarely get punished. When they do it is usually a slap on the wrist. In the end, when all the pros and cons are weighed they will almost always benefit from their illegal actions. Pick someone at random and give Mueller a year and he will find something.
    In 2016 maybe, but there's not much reason to back Trump to the hilt at this particular point. Even if the Dems control the House, they can't actually push legislation through without Senate and Presidential approval. A confirmation for kavanaugh makes supporting Trump that much less important.

    Letting the government go into lame duck status for the next 2 years isn't that big of a deal. An impeachment of Trump (if collusion with Russia can be substantially proven) is a better move than letting the Trump presidency continue.

    Come 2020 I'd rather see a vigorous nomination process than just letting Trump get a free pass on the GOP ticket. Practically anyone in the GOP stable would be a better President than Trump, both on the politics and the policy. This guy really, really sucks.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  10. #1180
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    Practically anyone in the GOP stable would be a better President than Trump, both on the politics and the policy. This guy really, really sucks.
    Didn't know you were such a liberal snowflake suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome.
    Better be careful, somebody might come along and post a huge jpeg of Trump with big block letters of wishful thinking.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  11. #1181
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Didn't know you were such a liberal snowflake suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome.
    Better be careful, somebody might come along and post a huge jpeg of Trump with big block letters of wishful thinking.
    **golf clap**
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    GVChamp,

    In 2016 maybe, but there's not much reason to back Trump to the hilt at this particular point. Even if the Dems control the House, they can't actually push legislation through without Senate and Presidential approval. A confirmation for kavanaugh makes supporting Trump that much less important.
    this is the argument that Jennifer Rubin at the Washington Post points out, but Trump is a cultural avatar for the Republican base and that's much more politically powerful than policy efficiency.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    When exactly did loyalty to the party surpass loyalty to the nation?
    It's a very Leninist concept, and one that has only recently crept into American politics.
    American politics became a sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    I think, if you examined history close enough you'll find that no US President since Washington has been the kind of clean whistle your talking about. People are people, they all have their faults and issues and no one is going to get to the Presidency without making deals and compromises to get there. I think the best you can hope for is an OK, reasonably honest candidate who has a line they want cross in terms of ethics and deal making. The real problem with politics in the US and elsewhere is that it has become so partizan/polarized.

    Imagine for a minute that such a person as I described managed to get nominated by either of the major parties. As things stand it wouldn't matter whether they stood for the Dems or the Reps. Hard core supporters on the opposite side would simply refuse to consider the possibility that a candidate from the opposing party might just be even passably honest. Every word out of their mouths and everything they ever did would be reviewed until something was found that justified demonizing them. And since you don't have compulsory voting large chunks of the middle ground who might be prepared to give that person a chance if they could hear anything over all the vitriol just give up and don't vote - which just hands more power to the groups causing most for the problems in the first place because the haters will always vote.
    Really what the country needs is an independent that wins the presidency without controversy and the Republicans and Democrats both end up around 25 to 30% (kind of like what happened in France). The independent is necessary because there are Republicans that will never vote for a Democrat and vice versa. 2016 was seriously the year for that to happen though if it was ever going to. If Trump does not get impeached/convicted, resign, or chooses to not run in 2020 and the Democrats turn left which it looks like they will, there's another massive opening in the middle there. It has to be someone though with sharp policy differences to the Democrats, because the Democrats are going to make the "how dare you weaken this attempt to remove Trump from power" argument.

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    The ironic thing to me about Trump is I really don't care about him banging a porn star as far as the actual act of it, my hatred of him is more policy-based, but I remember sitting in a church circa 2004, 2005 talking with a few other people and politics for some reason came up. One of the ladies at the table then compared the criticism of then-president Bush to previous president Clinton and then said "like he was a strong Christian".

    These same people are now probably Trump's biggest fans.

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