Page 75 of 135 FirstFirst ... 66676869707172737475767778798081828384 ... LastLast
Results 1,111 to 1,125 of 2015

Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #1111
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Dec 06
    Posts
    1,149
    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    "Same old"? If the Germans wanted US troops to leave their country they would not have not fight! There is vast difference between occupation and alliance. The Poles have offered $2bn for the US to station troops in Poland as a counter the Muscovites. It is not 'occupation' - you do not get tell the country who will be PM/President or what their laws should be - it is willing alliance. Get over your Muscovite moral equivalence.
    You missed the point completely. What DE is saying is that real American commitment to its allies has not reduced as evidenced by continuing presence of American troops in Germany and Korea. SO the world has not changed all that much. Nothing to do with "muscovite" moral equivalence. Whatever that is.

  2. #1112
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Dec 06
    Posts
    1,149
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    5. the intelligent thing to do would be to bulk up Western Europe to deter the Russians while funneling still more resources against the China problem.
    Deter the Russians from doing what? They can't even beat Ukraine. What exactly does Western Europe have to fear from them? The real problem is increasing dependence on them for WE's energy needs which Trump alluded to in his usual crude, idiotic ham-fisted manner. No amount of "bulking up" is going to fix that.

    A bulked up WE also couldn't have prevented Crimea. Or Russian troll farms spreading fake news.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 23 Jul 18, at 20:58.

  3. #1113
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    19 Feb 08
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    857
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    rj1,

    it's not an incredibly new world, it's a return from the post-Cold War world of the 1990s (where the US could intervene anywhere) to the "post-WWII world"...aka the Cold War. generally speaking we're not going to intervene if the place in question is not under our sphere of influence/allied/has some sort of US security guarantee. none of which applied to Ukraine in 2014-2015, nor Georgia in 2008.

    however, under the US/NATO security umbrella, it's a different story. without the implicit US security guarantee to Taiwan, and the Baltic states entry into NATO, do you really think either China or Russia would hesitate to change things even if it violates "international law"?
    So in this world, borders are only sacrosanct for states that have a security guarantee with the U.S.?

    The US was not going to war with Russia over a non-NATO member. However unless things change dramatically the US will defend Taiwan, South Korea and our Allies in the region. And The Baltics are NATO countries so we will defend them...unless the Feckless Cheeto orders EUCOM not to do so.

    As for the borders in Africa and the Mideast...well those at largely artificial constructs as a result of the post colonial breakup. Iraq is a perfect example of that. I mean look at all the straight lines which totally ignore tribal lines.

    Heck, the nice straight northern border for the US/Canada was almost fought over several times (54-40 Or Fight!) before it was negotiated to todays border.
    Can we setup a different thread and discuss war gaming the Baltics? I'm dead serious, because I question the will of certain countries presently allied with the Baltic states to defend them (not necessarily the Americans) even though the principle of collective defense would get cited. The scenario could potentially be a Rio Treaty-busting style moment for NATO and the EU.
    Last edited by rj1; 23 Jul 18, at 21:19.

  4. #1114
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    14,113
    rj1,

    So in this world, borders are only sacrosanct for states that have a security guarantee with the U.S.?
    not quite; subject to the usual cost-benefit analysis, including the states' own military strength, importance, etc. IE I doubt Russia is going to try to annex Finland, or China will try to annex Mongolia.

    but otherwise, yes, that is essentially the definition of a multipolar world. the irony is that behind the "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN" stuff, the national defense strategy fully acknowledges the return to Great Power competition. which includes power blocs, alliances, etc.

    Can we setup a different thread and discuss war gaming the Baltics? I'm dead serious, because I question the will of certain countries presently allied with the Baltic states to defend them (not necessarily the Americans) even though the principle of collective defense would get cited. The scenario could potentially be a Rio Treaty-busting style moment for NATO and the EU.
    sure, by all means.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #1115
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    14,113
    firestorm,

    Deter the Russians from doing what? They can't even beat Ukraine. What exactly does Western Europe have to fear from them? The real problem is increasing dependence on them for WE's energy needs which Trump alluded to in his usual crude, idiotic ham-fisted manner. No amount of "bulking up" is going to fix that.

    A bulked up WE also couldn't have prevented Crimea. Or Russian troll farms spreading fake news.
    of course a bulked up WE couldn't have prevented Crimea, because Ukraine was and is not a part of NATO. (on the other hand, I don't think the Russians would have had THAT much trouble, if they wanted to, in finishing off Ukraine in 2014-2015. but there was no POINT in doing so once the Russians got Crimea, and lots of extra costs they would have incurred.)

    but rj1 does point out that WE weakness leaves the Baltic states, which are part of NATO, hanging on a very thin thread indeed.

    altho i do agree that WE energy dependency on Russia is indeed worrying.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  6. #1116
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    12 Aug 08
    Location
    UK/Europe
    Posts
    5,553
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    You missed the point completely. What DE is saying is that real American commitment to its allies has not reduced as evidenced by continuing presence of American troops in Germany and Korea. SO the world has not changed all that much. Nothing to do with "muscovite" moral equivalence. Whatever that is.
    I did not know that you were DE's spokesperson and if indeed he did intend that I shall apologise for my misunderstanding of his comment to him.

    I reply to you to educate you (with little hope) about Muscovite moral equivalence - which surprisingly you have never noticed or heard of. When a reporter brings up the murder of reporters (Anna Politskaya for example) or opposition politicos to Putin (Nemtsov for example), the murder of Sasha Litvinenko, attempted murder of the Skripals etc etc etc all the way back to Ryazan and 'apartment bombings' to Trumpkin he says "Well America has killed people too". The difference is that in a free country ruled by law a President or PM cannot murder reporters or opposition politicians they don't like; in Muscovy it is the rule. Free peoples kill if necessary when attacked; dictators kill those they dislike.

    Another one "well the west invaded Iraq". Yes and maybe it was right or maybe wrong but making an equivalence with Georgia or Ukraine is a non sequitur; neither Georgia nor Ukraine have ever used chemical weapons on their own people. Georgia never had a nuclear program and Ukraine gave up it's nuclear weapons for a piece of worthless paper.

    Nor contrary to popular culture do free countries have James Bond's - licensed to kill. There is never a 'license to kill' except as has become very clear for Moscow. There is no moral equivalence between our actions and theirs.

  7. #1117
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Dec 06
    Posts
    1,149
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    but rj1 does point out that WE weakness leaves the Baltic states, which are part of NATO, hanging on a very thin thread indeed.
    Well if that is really the case, then it is Eastern Europe that needs bulking up, not WE, because the question is more of willingness than ability isn't it?

    But I don't agree that the Russians would seriously consider doing a Crimea in a NATO country. The USA, regardless of what your great orange leader says, cannot afford to let NATO become a joke. They will come to the Baltic states' defense and will drag WE (kicking and screaming if need be) along with them. The Russians know it very well and would never attempt it for that reason.

  8. #1118
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    15 Dec 06
    Posts
    1,149
    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I did not know that you were DE's spokesperson and if indeed he did intend that I shall apologise for my misunderstanding of his comment to him.

    I reply to you to educate you (with little hope) about Muscovite moral equivalence - which surprisingly you have never noticed or heard of. When a reporter brings up the murder of reporters (Anna Politskaya for example) or opposition politicos to Putin (Nemtsov for example), the murder of Sasha Litvinenko, attempted murder of the Skripals etc etc etc all the way back to Ryazan and 'apartment bombings' to Trumpkin he says "Well America has killed people too". The difference is that in a free country ruled by law a President or PM cannot murder reporters or opposition politicians they don't like; in Muscovy it is the rule. Free peoples kill if necessary when attacked; dictators kill those they dislike.

    Another one "well the west invaded Iraq". Yes and maybe it was right or maybe wrong but making an equivalence with Georgia or Ukraine is a non sequitur; neither Georgia nor Ukraine have ever used chemical weapons on their own people. Georgia never had a nuclear program and Ukraine gave up it's nuclear weapons for a piece of worthless paper.

    Nor contrary to popular culture do free countries have James Bond's - licensed to kill. There is never a 'license to kill' except as has become very clear for Moscow. There is no moral equivalence between our actions and theirs.
    I am no one's spokesperson. I was merely pointing out that you completely misunderstood the original post. Anyway, will let DE respond.

  9. #1119
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    12 Aug 08
    Location
    UK/Europe
    Posts
    5,553
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    Anyway, will let DE respond.
    Thankyou.

  10. #1120
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 Jan 07
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,643
    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Heck, the nice straight northern border for the US/Canada was almost fought over several times (54-40 Or Fight!) before it was negotiated to todays border.
    Haven't heard that phrase for a while Buck. Last time I was singing it at the top of my lungs while Oregon's finest played along. Enjoy. :-)

    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...12338&page=603


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  11. #1121
    Administrator
    Lei Feng Protege
    Defense Professional
    Join Date
    23 Aug 05
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    14,113
    Firestorm,

    Well if that is really the case, then it is Eastern Europe that needs bulking up, not WE, because the question is more of willingness than ability isn't it?
    both, really, but WE has the space and the economic size while EE doesn't. Estonia, no matter how much we bulk it up, will never have the military capability or capacity of Germany.

    the going in plans for most of the Baltic states is the expectation that they will be overrun in short order but will have active insurgencies in place to assist the eventual liberation.

    But I don't agree that the Russians would seriously consider doing a Crimea in a NATO country. The USA, regardless of what your great orange leader says, cannot afford to let NATO become a joke. They will come to the Baltic states' defense and will drag WE (kicking and screaming if need be) along with them. The Russians know it very well and would never attempt it for that reason.
    i think so as well-- and hope so. the US and NATO have put a good deal of thinking into how to counter hybrid warfare and the salami-slicing tactics that the Russians employ. the US and NATO have significantly improved readiness and responsiveness over the last five years.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  12. #1122
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    19 Feb 08
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    857
    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    rj1,



    not quite; subject to the usual cost-benefit analysis, including the states' own military strength, importance, etc. IE I doubt Russia is going to try to annex Finland, or China will try to annex Mongolia.

    but otherwise, yes, that is essentially the definition of a multipolar world. the irony is that behind the "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN" stuff, the national defense strategy fully acknowledges the return to Great Power competition. which includes power blocs, alliances, etc.
    Not sure why things like Turkey formally annexing Turkish Cyprus, Russia formally annexing Abkhazia, and Somaliland withdraws from the potemkin federal Somali government and becomes fully independent do not happen in this world then. No one is going to step in and stop them.
    Last edited by rj1; 24 Jul 18, at 13:54.

  13. #1123
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,957
    Can we setup a different thread and discuss war gaming the Baltics? I'm dead serious, because I question the will of certain countries presently allied with the Baltic states to defend them (not necessarily the Americans) even though the principle of collective defense would get cited. The scenario could potentially be a Rio Treaty-busting style moment for NATO and the EU.

    Go ahead and start it.

    Don't do it here...start in the International Defense & Geopolitics Discussion section under Europe & Russia,
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  14. #1124
    Global Moderator
    Military Professional
    Defense Professional
    Albany Rifles's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Apr 07
    Location
    Prince George, VA
    Posts
    8,957
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Haven't heard that phrase for a while Buck. Last time I was singing it at the top of my lungs while Oregon's finest played along. Enjoy. :-)

    http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...12338&page=603
    Well Pete I'm not quite old enough to remember when it was an original political slogan but.....
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  15. #1125
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
    Join Date
    11 Sep 10
    Location
    Bangalore
    Posts
    10,439
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    I am no one's spokesperson. I was merely pointing out that you completely misunderstood the original post. Anyway, will let DE respond.
    You got it right. First show me the pull outs and the accompanying circumstances then we can talk about change. The reply was to rj1 that we live in a very different world.

    Pertinent question to ask here is whether Trump can order these pullouts by himself on whatever pretext or does it have to go through more people. Does Congress get a say in the matter at all. What is the mechanism to pull those troops out from an US pov

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I reply to you to educate you (with little hope) about Muscovite moral equivalence - which surprisingly you have never noticed or heard of. When a reporter brings up the murder of reporters (Anna Politskaya for example) or opposition politicos to Putin (Nemtsov for example), the murder of Sasha Litvinenko, attempted murder of the Skripals etc etc etc all the way back to Ryazan and 'apartment bombings' to Trumpkin he says "Well America has killed people too". The difference is that in a free country ruled by law a President or PM cannot murder reporters or opposition politicians they don't like; in Muscovy it is the rule. Free peoples kill if necessary when attacked; dictators kill those they dislike.

    Another one "well the west invaded Iraq". Yes and maybe it was right or maybe wrong but making an equivalence with Georgia or Ukraine is a non sequitur; neither Georgia nor Ukraine have ever used chemical weapons on their own people. Georgia never had a nuclear program and Ukraine gave up it's nuclear weapons for a piece of worthless paper.

    Nor contrary to popular culture do free countries have James Bond's - licensed to kill. There is never a 'license to kill' except as has become very clear for Moscow. There is no moral equivalence between our actions and theirs.
    Another is the US has also interfered in the elections of others
    Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Jul 18, at 15:58.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 2017 American Political Scene
    By YellowFever in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 2571
    Last Post: 29 Dec 17,, 21:34
  2. Lotsa great American political news out there today...
    By Bluesman in forum American Politics & Economy
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 27 Aug 10,, 20:00
  3. American political duplication between Riyadh and Israel
    By ahmed in forum International Politics
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 29 Apr 07,, 22:06

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •