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  • BF,

    Putin may actually die of laughter.
    https://www.facebook.com/ianbremmer/...153123363/?t=0

    sigh.

    as for my comment on the usual Trump-friendly media, well, Hannity managed to out-do himself.

    Trump is an immensely vain man obsessed with notions of 'strength', 'forcefulness', 'power' etc. Putin is just stroking his ego & telling him what he wants to hear. It really is that easy.
    at this point, does it MATTER if Trump is a Putin plant? what would he do differently if he was bought and paid for?

    so earlier we had some of our conservative buddies here waxing lyrical about how Trump was getting NATO member countries to pay more for their own defense, and that showed what a staunch hawk Trump was.

    it should be clear to all now that Trump DOESN'T ACTUALLY CARE about increased deterrence against Russia with regards to increased European defense spending, because: 1. he wants the European spending to substitute for American spending, and 2. he views Russia as essentially a friendly power.

    as Trump has repeatedly mentioned over and over, he views the EU as the foe of the US-- he specifically placed the EU above Russia in this aspect!!-- and he views NATO as the US spending money to defend European economic competitors ("they get a lot more out of it than we do").
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
      America's allies are incredulously despondent and America's enemies are incredulously orgasmic.
      Actually I am not despondent. Trumpkin was forced to show his true colours - he is as Brennan puts it "in Putin's pocket" and Brennan definitely knows more than I. Even this aiding and abetting Republican Party are appalled at his performance in the face of an enemy. This I feel is the moment when the tide turns.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by snapper View Post
        Actually I am not despondent. Trumpkin was forced to show his true colours - he is as Brennan puts it "in Putin's pocket" and Brennan definitely knows more than I. Even this aiding and abetting Republican Party are appalled at his performance in the face of an enemy. This I feel is the moment when the tide turns.
        I wish that were true, but we've already seen the extent of the outrage.

        Business as usual has recommenced.

        The real litmus test will be in November.
        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

        Comment


        • Trump's not a Russia hawk, he's a Russia dove. Him pushing NATO to increase its defense commitments falls into "broken clock right twice a day" category.

          The press conference was an embrassment, but I don't see what's different about this vs. the past 18 months. For actual Russia hawks, this sucks, but it has sucked for the last 4 adminstrations. It was obvious that Russia was never going to be a strategic partner and needed to get boot-stomped after the USSR broke up and Russia continued to place troops in neighboring republics. When was that? 1992? 1993?
          "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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          • GVChamp,

            The press conference was an embrassment, but I don't see what's different about this vs. the past 18 months. For actual Russia hawks, this sucks, but it has sucked for the last 4 adminstrations. It was obvious that Russia was never going to be a strategic partner and needed to get boot-stomped after the USSR broke up and Russia continued to place troops in neighboring republics. When was that? 1992? 1993?
            words matter.

            if the US President is willing to denigrate his own intelligence agencies, his own people, in front of Putin-- what message does that send to US allies about the US President's willingness to defend -them-?

            Trump is completely different from "the last 4 administrations", and he's different from HRC in responding to Russia; Putin openly said as much yesterday when he explained why he preferred Trump as President. and this is in the context of a Russian cyberattack on the US election system!
            Last edited by astralis; 17 Jul 18,, 17:39.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

            Comment


            • There were many who knew the truth about Putin and his gang before me. I only 'came to' in 2008 after the Georgian invasion. During my time I do not know a single colleague that has not warned of it from Central Eastern Europe. Nobody listened to Bukovsky, to Litvinenko, to Anna Politskaya. It was always "but we have to engage with them - if only for business purposes." Well I admit I agreed sometimes in the past to that too. We all make mistakes. We did; I did.

              They attacked your democracy; they attacked British democracy during the Brexit referendum too. We know they have attacked Germany, France, Holland, Poland, Estonia and physically Ukraine and Georgia. Do you believe for instant that this stops because Trumpkin says nice things about the Muscovite dwarf? No you fool! It does not stop until it is stopped. But now your deeply compromised 'President' (who Putin helped get elected) has given a green light to Muscovite interference in your next elections.

              Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
              Aid and Comfort? Trumpkin is definitely guilty of that. Adhering also. I am not in favour of the death sentence usually but some crimes - which in Trumpkin's case are really about his ego which led him to become a traitor - deserve hanging.

              Comment


              • So wab now has reached the point of foreigners calling for the death of an American President.
                To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  GVChamp,



                  words matter.

                  if the US President is willing to denigrate his own intelligence agencies, his own people, in front of Putin-- what message does that send to US allies about the US President's willingness to defend -them-?

                  Trump is completely different from "the last 4 administrations", and he's different from HRC in responding to Russia; Putin openly said as much yesterday when he explained why he preferred Trump as President. and this is in the context of a Russian cyberattack on the US election system!
                  But the words aren't any different. They are the same words. It's been, like, 2 years of these words. This week isn't any different, it's the same old Trump.

                  Trump being different from the last adminstrations does not excuse the last adminstrations. Russia launched a large cyber-attack on a NATO nation, to which the prior adminstration giggled and promised a "reset." This might be worse. That was still the stuff of nightmares, meaning, for Russia hawks, you've been living in a waking nightmare for the last 20 years, which also didn't change yesterday.
                  "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by troung View Post
                    So wab now has reached the point of foreigners calling for the death of an American President.
                    Not just American Presidents...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                      But the words aren't any different. They are the same words. It's been, like, 2 years of these words. This week isn't any different, it's the same old Trump.

                      Trump being different from the last adminstrations does not excuse the last adminstrations. Russia launched a large cyber-attack on a NATO nation, to which the prior adminstration giggled and promised a "reset." This might be worse. That was still the stuff of nightmares, meaning, for Russia hawks, you've been living in a waking nightmare for the last 20 years, which also didn't change yesterday.
                      The Bush and Obama administrations were incredibly weak vis a vis Russia.

                      The Bush and Obama administrations did not have the president publicly overrule his National Intelligence Director that he appointed to take Putin's side on an issue concerning Russian meddling in internal U.S. affairs.

                      Comment


                      • Why so much paranoia in the USA with Russia? China is the main competitor against the USA, not Russia. China is the country that really can surpass the US like a jet.

                        I think Trump is one of the very few in the US politics that understand this and want to move in this direction. I think he is very right when he speaks against the trade pact with China, they are getting richer, fatter and bigger without giving anything in return. Chinese politicians are really smart.

                        China is potentially ten times Japan, and Russia is only 145 million people. Why not ally Russia to contain China? the only thing is Russia is enough big not to be a vassal, like European Union countries, so the would have independent policies and the US should understand some russian security concerns (welcome multipolar world)

                        And the USA complaining about russian interference in the US elections... is like Osama Bin Laden moaning against terrorism because someone throw a firecracker on his feet. The USA is the master doing this, worldwide. When Russia was the Soviet Union, they were at the samen level, now Russia is a dwarf.

                        I want to ask, in the US political spectrum, how many people are in this "contain China, dont waste time on Russia" way of thinking?

                        Comment


                        • But the words aren't any different. They are the same words. It's been, like, 2 years of these words. This week isn't any different, it's the same old Trump.
                          and the context matters. he just spent a week insulting NATO allies left and right, interfering with British politics, and now he's doing the I Am Best Buddies with Putin routine? at a summit that Trump pushed for, against the advice of his entire national security staff.

                          he does this KNOWING FULL WELL that he would pay a political price for doing so, and yet he does this anyway.

                          the question is: why?

                          if it's "same old, same old" you wouldn't have even his GOP faithful blanching at this.

                          Trump being different from the last adminstrations does not excuse the last adminstrations. Russia launched a large cyber-attack on a NATO nation, to which the prior adminstration giggled and promised a "reset." This might be worse. That was still the stuff of nightmares, meaning, for Russia hawks, you've been living in a waking nightmare for the last 20 years, which also didn't change yesterday.
                          bah, false equivalence.

                          if you like, you can say what happened under previous administrations was like the Khobar Towers attack. now this is akin to 9-11, with the chief difference being that the US President decides to tell OBL that "you know what, both sides are at fault".

                          these are completely different level of nightmares, and if one is a Russia hawk one should be outraged at the prospect of a US President basically agreeing with Putin on every major foreign policy issue.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • pepe,

                            I want to ask, in the US political spectrum, how many people are in this "contain China, dont waste time on Russia" way of thinking?
                            prior to the brazen Russian involvement in the US election, this was essentially the default position of both parties, particularly the Democratic party. Obama's mocking of Romney comes to mind.

                            and at the time this made sense, for precisely the reasons you name.

                            but Russia -has- attacked the US so they SHOULD move up enormously on the threat totem pole.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Pepe View Post
                              Why so much paranoia in the USA with Russia? China is the main competitor against the USA, not Russia. China is the country that really can surpass the US like a jet.

                              I want to ask, in the US political spectrum, how many people are in this "contain China, dont waste time on Russia" way of thinking?
                              Certainly I am favour of containing China and promoting democracy there but they did not interfere in US and British elections, murder British citizens on British soil, militarily support a war criminal in Syria, annex a part of Ukraine and invade another or buy Trumpkin. It is Putin who is trying to split the trans Atlantic. Not China.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Pepe View Post
                                Why so much paranoia in the USA with Russia?
                                Our president publicly overruled his National Intelligence Director that he appointed to take Putin's side on an issue concerning Russian meddling in internal U.S. affairs.

                                Honestly, we can even go back before the 2016 general election. Let's go back to the 2016 Republican National Convention. The Trump campaign at bits and pieces made its influence known and heavy-handed, most notably the Rules Committee which no offense there to be honest, it's what most campaigns do. The Platform Committee about what the party stands for, they didn't care, they let whatever get passed, with one key exception...items involving Russia. This was in July 2016.

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