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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #961
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No Sir the Senate did not "elect Pompey" (Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus being the man and Pompeii being the town) it appointed him as their General to defend the Republik after Caesar broke the law by crossing the Rubicon with his legions while Consul. The Senate never elected Consuls though Senators could vote. The election of Consuls was open to all citizens and not the Senate alone. Some political posts were for the Senate to appoint such pro - Consuls or regional Governors. The Tribunes, the one official post Augustus held after becoming 'Emperor', were also elected by 'plebeians' not the Senate.
    Oh please. Then, more so than now, those with money determined the election. Bribes were flowing left, right, and centre. The Senate determined who was elected.

    As such, Pompei was not eligible since he had legions and a governorship that has yet to be finished. And let's be very clear about this. Caeser was not a criminal until his term of governorship in Gaul was up. Pompei already had his legions in Italy on his dime to vote for him. So to accuse Caesar of a crime is to ignore Pompei's criminal actions.

    Get off that schtick. It has nothing to do with Trump who was legally elected and not through by hook or by crook.

  2. #962
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Oh please. Then, more so than now, those with money determined the election. Bribes were flowing left, right, and centre. The Senate determined who was elected.
    Nobody is saying that elections during the Roman Republic were not open to bribery.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    As such, Pompei was not eligible since he had legions and a governorship that has yet to be finished. And let's be very clear about this. Caeser was not a criminal until his term of governorship in Gaul was up. Pompei already had his legions in Italy on his dime to vote for him. So to accuse Caesar of a crime is to ignore Pompei's criminal actions.
    Pompey when the Senate went to him asking him to defend the Republic was not Governor of any province. He was a retired General - his only official position being prefect of provisions (make sure the food gets to Rome) and had suffered a recent illness in what is now called Naples. He was not "elected" to any political position but asked to defend the Republic.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Get off that schtick. It has nothing to do with Trump who was legally elected and not through by hook or by crook.
    What I was trying to point out was the dangers inherent in one partisan political side using the system of justice against another; that Justice - to remain true justice must be impartial and not the tool of some political manoeuvre by any side such as was possible in old Rome and led to the downfall of the Republic there. Not your 'what was Pompey doing when appointed General nonsense'. He sure as hell was not "elected" Consul by the Senate.

    If you wish to continue this historical debate regarding Roman history and the downfall of the Republic I would be happy to do so in the History threads.

  3. #963
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    What I was trying to point out was the dangers inherent in one partisan political side using the system of justice against another; that Justice - to remain true justice must be impartial and not the tool of some political manoeuvre by any side such as was possible in old Rome and led to the downfall of the Republic there.
    unfortunately the US system of impeachment was and is a political process, more than it is a legal one.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  4. #964
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    What I was trying to point out was the dangers inherent in one partisan political side using the system of justice against another; that Justice - to remain true justice must be impartial and not the tool of some political manoeuvre by any side such as was possible in old Rome and led to the downfall of the Republic there. Not your 'what was Pompey doing when appointed General nonsense'. He sure as hell was not "elected" Consul by the Senate.
    Again, get off that schtick. Pompei was no angel and certainly no defender of the Republic. He was not restoring power to the Senate. He and Caeser was in a war for who was to rule Rome. So, get off that crap about justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    If you wish to continue this historical debate regarding Roman history and the downfall of the Republic I would be happy to do so in the History threads.
    You go right ahead but stop bringing Caeser here since the Roman Republic system has no bearing on the US whatsoever.

  5. #965
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    The point about justice was that private citizens were given free reign to bring criminal charges in the Roman Republic - thus Caesar felt forced to cross the Rubicon because he was facing charges as soon as the coming end of his Consulship came (Consuls being immune during their 2yr time of service). Thus in the modern world we put justice above partisan factions for the benefit of all and for Trumpkin to "demand" an investigation into an ongoing investigation regarding him threatens that principle. It is called jurisprudence I think.

    You know Colonel, with the most respect, I am bored of answering your insults and other distortions. God save you.

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The point about justice was that private citizens were given free reign to bring criminal charges in the Roman Republic - thus Caesar felt forced to cross the Rubicon because he was facing charges as soon as the coming end of his Consulship came (Consuls being immune during their 2yr time of service).
    Again, get off it. There were enough plays going on to see both Caeser and Pompei to give up their legions at the same time. Both refused. Both were given options to avoid criminal charges. Again both refused. Both did not want to lose power. Yeah, try to get a private citizen to bring charges against Pompei when his legionaires were walking the streets in civilian clothes.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Thus in the modern world we put justice above partisan factions for the benefit of all and for Trumpkin to "demand" an investigation into an ongoing investigation regarding him threatens that principle. It is called jurisprudence I think.
    It's being done. It's called the Mueller Special Council. Tough cookies is not to your likings but it fits within the American Law System of which you have absolutely zero say

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    You know Colonel, with the most respect, I am bored of answering your insults and other distortions. God save you.
    You're the one who is refusing to answer facts and bring up crap that has no bearing on this whatsoever. Stop bringing up Caeser. It has zero to do with Trump no matter how many times you type Trumpkin.

  7. #967
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    Solomon Lartey was a records management analyst earning $65,969 a year.
    And for the first five months of the Trump Administration, his job was to reassemble torn documents with clear Scotch tape.

    It turns out that Trump is in the habit of tearing up documents once he’s done with them — his unofficial “filing system.”
    The only problem is that, per the Presidential Records Act, the White House must preserve these documents and send them to the National Archives.

    Politico, via fivethirtyeight.com
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  8. #968
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    “I have to start by saying I am a big fan, a very big fan of the United Nations and all it stand for.”

    --Donald J. Trump, July 21, 2005 testimony before the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee Subcommittee on Federal Financial Management, Government Information and International Security.
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  9. #969
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    "Womp, womp."

    My sister-in-law has Downs Syndrome, so this doesn’t get brushed aside as merely poor taste.

    Furious backlash as ex-Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski says 'WOMP, WOMP' about 10-year-old girl with Down syndrome getting separated from her mother at the border

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rated-mom.html


    My sister-in-law has Downs Syndrome, so this doesn’t get brushed aside as merely poor taste.

    Anyone who wants to defend these hate-filled piles of garbage and the people they identify with has to know the answer to these questions:

    • When do the so-called Christians break with The Trumpet over his treatment of children?
    • When does common decency and simple Christian morality kick in and force these holier-than-thou types to take a stand?
    • Can anyone support this abomination and still pretend to believe in the teachings of Jesus?
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  10. #970
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    A federal court decision in Kansas has shredded the extravagant claims of Chris Kobach & some of the most prominent proponents of the idea that non-citizens are voting in large numbers:

    Judge Robinson found that at most 39 noncitizens successfully registered to vote between 1999 and 2013, when the new law went into effect. “While there is evidence of a small number of noncitizen registrations in Kansas, it is largely explained by administrative error, confusion or mistake,” Judge Robinson concluded, adding that Mr. Kobach “insists that these numbers are ‘just the tip of the iceberg.’ This trial was his opportunity to produce credible evidence of that iceberg, but he failed to do so.”
    Claims going beyond Kansas were systematically dismantled & shown to be the result of absurd extrapolation & unsound data. Anyone who is in any way surprised by this has been living under a rock.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/o...e=sectionfront


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  11. #971
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    My sister-in-law has Downs Syndrome, so this doesn’t get brushed aside as merely poor taste.

    Furious backlash as ex-Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski says 'WOMP, WOMP' about 10-year-old girl with Down syndrome getting separated from her mother at the border

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rated-mom.html


    My sister-in-law has Downs Syndrome, so this doesn’t get brushed aside as merely poor taste.

    Anyone who wants to defend these hate-filled piles of garbage and the people they identify with has to know the answer to these questions:

    • When do the so-called Christians break with The Trumpet over his treatment of children?
    • When does common decency and simple Christian morality kick in and force these holier-than-thou types to take a stand?
    • Can anyone support this abomination and still pretend to believe in the teachings of Jesus?
    There's a sufficient number of people breaking with Trump, but the status quo isn't acceptable to anyone who doesn't believe in open borders. It wasn't even acceptable for the prior administration, which pursued blanket family detention until a DC judge stopped it.

    Just letting in every family with kids claiming asylum isn't a solution.

    Bigger problem:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.f4a2ae51a8cd
    The White House said many released minors — nearly 70 percent of whom are teenage boys — have not shown up for their deportation hearings.
    Especially when you're talking about tens of thousands of people, this adds up.

    What is your alternative?
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    • When do the so-called Christians break with The Trumpet over his treatment of children?
    • When does common decency and simple Christian morality kick in and force these holier-than-thou types to take a stand?
    • Can anyone support this abomination and still pretend to believe in the teachings of Jesus?
    Forgive me if I misjudged you but I was not aware you were religiously inclined? I fully agree though; as a committed Catholic the treatment of children of immigrants (who may be going to the US for bad reasons but whose children are certainly not) is un - Christian. For a Party that claims to stand for "family values" to tear innocent children from their mothers by saying "we're going to take him/her for shower" (oh the irony!) is hypocritically moral filth.

  13. #973
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    Some background on the 2015 era family seperations.
    https://www.theblaze.com/video/an-im...e-was-chilling

    Mr. Beck even delivered truck loads of toys and soccer balls to these facilities during the past administration.
    Last edited by surfgun; 20 Jun 18, at 23:08.

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    Some background on the 2015 era family seperations.
    https://www.theblaze.com/video/an-im...e-was-chilling

    Mr. Beck even delivered truck loads of toys and soccer balls to these facilities during the past administration.
    Can you point to the bit in the article (or the ACLU case it links to) that covers the separation of families at the border? The article covers children sent over the border unaccompanied and it talks about families being held in detention. No mention of separation that I can see.

    I also went down the 'Blaze' rabbit hole, reading articles from 2014 & going through the various links. I can't find a single reference to family separation. Lots and lots of references to unaccompanied minors, but not family separation. I would have thought Beck would have brought it up at the time.


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  15. #975
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    GVChamp,

    It isn’t binary; saying that the status quo isn’t acceptable in response to my comment about the way children are being treated by this administration is at best a distraction and more likely a deliberate effort to muddy the waters.

    No, it isn’t the case that ‘everyone did it.’
    No, it isn’t as if ‘all politicians lie.’
    No, Trump isn’t the fifth or seventh worst president in history.
    No, the previous administration didn’t separate families the way this one has.
    No, no one is suggesting ‘just letting in every family with kids claiming asylum’ is the solution.
    No, the alternative to the way this administration has been treating children isn’t open borders.
    No, it isn’t necessary for me – or anyone – to have a solution.
    What is necessary is for anyone who claims to be a Christian, or a Republican, to speak up against this atrocity.

    What’s your excuse?

    = = = = =

    Snapper,
    No, I am not religiously inclined and by the way that has zero to do with the issue.
    Read what I wrote.

    = = = = =


    Surfgun,
    We already have a thread on the horrors of fake news.
    What's your excuse?
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