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  • #76
    Originally posted by surfgun View Post
    It looks like Australia is starting to deal with USA type issues.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-42643834
    Nope. Just your ignorance.

    At worst its less than a hundred young (mostly) men of Sudanese background who are committing crimes. Some robberies, some car thefts, some home invasions and some aggravated assaults. Its very unpleasant and occasionally unsafe for people in a couple of areas of Melbourne and it needs additional resources committed to dealing with it. However, there simply isn't a comparison to US problems. This isn't even 'sharks & Jets' stuff. They are not heavily armed, or mostly armed at all. They are not killing people. They aren't even especially well organized - certainly not the sort of 'gang' you are thinking about. They are not remotely the most dangerous groups in Australia, just the blackest. Thus your interest it appears.

    We had a gangland war here a few years back that dropped about 3 dozen bodies. Worst we've ever had. Not a single African involved. I'm guessing you didn't notice that.

    Here are some things that will tell you we have 'USA type issues':

    *Murders per capita quadruple or quintuple;

    *Firearms murders leap from about 30 to over 500;

    *People start shooting up schools, workplaces & public gatherings on a regular basis;

    *Other people respond to this by quibbling over whether or not the weapons was an 'assault weapon', 'military style' etc.;

    *Our society becomes so dysfunctional that we start exporting our violent gang culture to third world nations;

    *Whole swathes of our major cities become unsafe to live in (I live about 100 meters from the busiest drug corner in Melbourne. It is unpleasant, but not unsafe);

    *We completely lose our collective fucking minds and institute gun laws remotely like the ones you have.

    We have problems here, but they don't remotely compare to yours.
    sigpic

    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

    Comment


    • #77
      Like^^^

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
        Nope. Just your ignorance.

        At worst its less than a hundred young (mostly) men of Sudanese background who are committing crimes. Some robberies, some car thefts, some home invasions and some aggravated assaults. Its very unpleasant and occasionally unsafe for people in a couple of areas of Melbourne and it needs additional resources committed to dealing with it. However, there simply isn't a comparison to US problems. This isn't even 'sharks & Jets' stuff. They are not heavily armed, or mostly armed at all. They are not killing people. They aren't even especially well organized - certainly not the sort of 'gang' you are thinking about. They are not remotely the most dangerous groups in Australia, just the blackest. Thus your interest it appears.

        We had a gangland war here a few years back that dropped about 3 dozen bodies. Worst we've ever had. Not a single African involved. I'm guessing you didn't notice that.

        Here are some things that will tell you we have 'USA type issues':

        *Murders per capita quadruple or quintuple;

        *Firearms murders leap from about 30 to over 500;

        *People start shooting up schools, workplaces & public gatherings on a regular basis;

        *Other people respond to this by quibbling over whether or not the weapons was an 'assault weapon', 'military style' etc.;

        *Our society becomes so dysfunctional that we start exporting our violent gang culture to third world nations;

        *Whole swathes of our major cities become unsafe to live in (I live about 100 meters from the busiest drug corner in Melbourne. It is unpleasant, but not unsafe);

        *We completely lose our collective fucking minds and institute gun laws remotely like the ones you have.

        We have problems here, but they don't remotely compare to yours.
        I guess the word “some” should have been used to help keep your nickers from getting a bit twisted?

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by surfgun View Post
          I guess the word “some” should have been used to help keep your nickers from getting a bit twisted?
          My nickers are just fine. Properly informing yourself and not letting melanin levels catch your eye so would have been better than using 'some'. We have had 'gangs' for centuries. For some reason you just noticed.
          sigpic

          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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          • #80
            http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]%20birth~7
            •Persons born in Sudan had the highest imprisonment rate (701.6 prisoners per 100,000 adult population born in Sudan), followed by persons born in Samoa (432.4 prisoners per 100,000 adult population born in Samoa). The number of Sudanese-born and Samoan-born prisoners was 131 and 100 respectively. (Table 21)
            This means your Sudanese imprisonment rate is equal to America's imprisonment rate, and America's imprisonment is pretty damn high.

            Yeah, blah blah blah, everyone but you is racist. These guys are pretty much a drop in the bucket and your largest contingent of foreign-born are Brits, but don't piss on my head and call it rain.
            "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
              http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]%20birth~7


              This means your Sudanese imprisonment rate is equal to America's imprisonment rate, and America's imprisonment is pretty damn high.
              GV, not withstanding Bigfella's somewhat 'terse' response to the original post Sudanese refugees total somewhere in the vicinity of 25-30,000 persons in total. This compares to a total Australian population of nearly 25 million people (and rising quickly). It follows that albeit the comparably high rate of imprisonment in America the ability of the Sudanese community to influence Australia's average imprisonment rate is marginal at best. Indeed you would virtually have to imprison virtually the entire Sudanese population to impact on the incarceration rate in any meaningful fashion.

              So there really no way to compare Australian imprisonment rates to America's simply because the population subset in question is simply to small to make a significant difference.

              The issue in question is the apparent inability of one part of the Sudanese community in one city to integrate effectively into the local community. There are Sudanese communities in all major Australian cities but the problems reported in the media seem to be largely confined to Melbourne. In the big picture this is not unexpected, first generation migrants from poorer nations have always had trouble integrating into local cultures. And these problems tend to come to a head in the second generation. By the time the 3rd and 4th generations come along the issues are largely resolved.

              Australians first criminal 'gangs' were largely Irish -in the 19th Century, followed after WWII by Italian and Greek migrant youths and then Lebanese gangs in the 70s (although I admit there have been somewhat more persistent problems in that community) and Vietnamese in the 80s. All of the problems were largely confined to 2nd generation migrants and all of the issues had largely faded by the time the 3rd generation came along.

              These days our serious criminal gangs are basically non-exclusive, if you can bring money or illicit goods to the table you are welcome regardless of your ancestor. Money talks, bullshit walks.
              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

              Comment


              • #82
                This memo thingy will be fun to watch :) It appears that Hillary is looking for some nice jail time...and Billy too.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                  http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]%20birth~7


                  This means your Sudanese imprisonment rate is equal to America's imprisonment rate, and America's imprisonment is pretty damn high.

                  Yeah, blah blah blah, everyone but you is racist. These guys are pretty much a drop in the bucket and your largest contingent of foreign-born are Brits, but don't piss on my head and call it rain.
                  So you are telling me that one tiny migrant community from one of the most troubled parts of the world, many of whom grew up in refugee camps, is imprisoned at the same rate as you imprison everyone in America. I cannot imagine a more telling statistic on American failure.

                  We both know that the only reason this even got mentioned here is the word 'African' attached to 'gang' in the headline, so spare me the 'white victimhood' crap. Well organized gangs that actually murder people.....silence.
                  sigpic

                  Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Monash View Post
                    GV, not withstanding Bigfella's somewhat 'terse' response to the original post Sudanese refugees total somewhere in the vicinity of 25-30,000 persons in total. This compares to a total Australian population of nearly 25 million people (and rising quickly). It follows that albeit the comparably high rate of imprisonment in America the ability of the Sudanese community to influence Australia's average imprisonment rate is marginal at best. Indeed you would virtually have to imprison virtually the entire Sudanese population to impact on the incarceration rate in any meaningful fashion.

                    So there really no way to compare Australian imprisonment rates to America's simply because the population subset in question is simply to small to make a significant difference.

                    The issue in question is the apparent inability of one part of the Sudanese community in one city to integrate effectively into the local community. There are Sudanese communities in all major Australian cities but the problems reported in the media seem to be largely confined to Melbourne. In the big picture this is not unexpected, first generation migrants from poorer nations have always had trouble integrating into local cultures. And these problems tend to come to a head in the second generation. By the time the 3rd and 4th generations come along the issues are largely resolved.

                    Australians first criminal 'gangs' were largely Irish -in the 19th Century, followed after WWII by Italian and Greek migrant youths and then Lebanese gangs in the 70s (although I admit there have been somewhat more persistent problems in that community) and Vietnamese in the 80s. All of the problems were largely confined to 2nd generation migrants and all of the issues had largely faded by the time the 3rd generation came along.

                    These days our serious criminal gangs are basically non-exclusive, if you can bring money or illicit goods to the table you are welcome regardless of your ancestor. Money talks, bullshit walks.
                    Pretty much, though you left out the white anglo gangs since forever, the Romanians (who at one time had criminality rates WAY higher than the Sudanese) & the Chinese. Italian gangsters get to lunch with prominent politicians and petition them to waive concerns that would normally sink their migration applications. We didn't 'import' that problem from the US either. Just the usual BS any society has.
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Monash View Post
                      GV, not withstanding Bigfella's somewhat 'terse' response to the original post Sudanese refugees total somewhere in the vicinity of 25-30,000 persons in total. This compares to a total Australian population of nearly 25 million people (and rising quickly). It follows that albeit the comparably high rate of imprisonment in America the ability of the Sudanese community to influence Australia's average imprisonment rate is marginal at best. Indeed you would virtually have to imprison virtually the entire Sudanese population to impact on the incarceration rate in any meaningful fashion.

                      So there really no way to compare Australian imprisonment rates to America's simply because the population subset in question is simply to small to make a significant difference.

                      The issue in question is the apparent inability of one part of the Sudanese community in one city to integrate effectively into the local community. There are Sudanese communities in all major Australian cities but the problems reported in the media seem to be largely confined to Melbourne. In the big picture this is not unexpected, first generation migrants from poorer nations have always had trouble integrating into local cultures. And these problems tend to come to a head in the second generation. By the time the 3rd and 4th generations come along the issues are largely resolved.

                      Australians first criminal 'gangs' were largely Irish -in the 19th Century, followed after WWII by Italian and Greek migrant youths and then Lebanese gangs in the 70s (although I admit there have been somewhat more persistent problems in that community) and Vietnamese in the 80s. All of the problems were largely confined to 2nd generation migrants and all of the issues had largely faded by the time the 3rd generation came along.

                      These days our serious criminal gangs are basically non-exclusive, if you can bring money or illicit goods to the table you are welcome regardless of your ancestor. Money talks, bullshit walks.
                      Well, why are you considering the effect on the overall crime rate? Of course it's going to be a small amount, since you're talking about a relatively small group of people, like I said. That doesn't mean you should bring in MORE people of that group. The relevant question is the marginal value of each additional Sudanese immigrant, not whether THIS marginal Sudanese immigrant will substantially affect any metric (which is virtually impossible to do in a nation of millions of people).

                      Talking about the criminality of other groups is intentional obfuscation of the fact that the group under question is vastly more likely to end up in prison than any other group in Australia. And it's really, really obvious.

                      It's like in the US when people talk about Chicago being the murder capital. Chicago has millions of people and is America's largest city: of course we are going to have more murders than most other cities. St. Louis, however, has 60 murderers per capita, compared to Chicago's 16 per capita. So, yeah, Chicago has more murders, but you are substantially less safe in St. Louis. (though you'd be fair to point out that NYC has a much lower murder rate than Chicago).
                      "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                        Well, why are you considering the effect on the overall crime rate? Of course it's going to be a small amount, since you're talking about a relatively small group of people, like I said. That doesn't mean you should bring in MORE people of that group. The relevant question is the marginal value of each additional Sudanese immigrant, not whether THIS marginal Sudanese immigrant will substantially affect any metric (which is virtually impossible to do in a nation of millions of people).
                        Firstly because the overall crime rate is an important metric and yes you can question wisdom of adding more members of to Sudanese community to the immigrant mix (just like you could any other ethnic group.) The key question though is why this one particular community? As I noted previously there are Sudanese communities in every other major city and they are not contributing significantly to a spike in crime. So whats the difference in Melbourne- it can't just be am ingrained cultural issue because if it was we would see similar spikes elsewhere.

                        Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                        Talking about the criminality of other groups is intentional obfuscation of the fact that the group under question is vastly more likely to end up in prison than any other group in Australia. And it's really, really obvious.
                        Not obfuscation intentional or otherwise. The issue I was trying to point to (however poorly) was the specific pattern of behavior involved - regardless of ethnicity i.e. first generation trying to just get by, second generation resentful & alienated, third and forth generations making a go if it and integrating successfully into the wider community. My point was that the Sudanese are, to a greater or lesser extent depending on their location simply following the same pattern of behavior exhibited by other ethnic groups previously and are therefore not particularly unique.

                        As for the likelihood of a large number of Sudanese arriving in the near future, this is unlikely. Most were accepted under UN refugee programs during the height of the instability in Sudan which is now (relatively) calm. The latest big intake is from the Syrian Christian and Yazidis communities whom our Government (for obvious reasons) has decided face higher levels of persecution than other groups caught up in the Syrian civil war/s. And guess where in a decade or so I expect to see the next spike in ethnic related crime?

                        FYI - this doesn't mean I'm going to be breaking into a sweat about arab/coffee colored???? crime gangs either. It will pass and again our overall crime rate statistics will be largely unaffected.
                        Last edited by Monash; 24 Jan 18,, 05:05.
                        If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Clinton kept adviser on 2008 campaign despite sexual harassment allegation
                          By Dan Merica and Veronica Stracqualursi, CNN
                          Updated 4:20 PM ET, Fri January 26, 2018


                          (CNN)Hillary Clinton decided not to fire a senior adviser on her 2008 presidential campaign who had been accused of sexual harassment, against the recommendation of her campaign manager, two sources who worked on the 2008 campaign tell CNN.

                          A female campaign staffer had accused Clinton's faith adviser, Burns Strider, of harassment that included inappropriate touching, kissing her forehead and sending her suggestive emails, the sources said. The woman shared an office with Strider.
                          After hearing of the complaint, Clinton campaign manager Patti Solis Doyle and other senior aides urged Clinton to fire Strider, but Clinton declined to dismiss him and kept him on for the rest of her failed run for the Democratic nomination, the sources said.
                          "Patti wanted him out but she was overruled," one source said.
                          The other source said Clinton made clear that "we should explore other options" than firing Strider. "I certainly thought he should just be fired," the source added.
                          The New York Times first reported the story on Friday.
                          The woman was moved out of the office where she had been working with Strider, one source said, and the faith adviser was punished by having his pay docked for several weeks, having his title changed and being required to undergo sexual harassment training.
                          Strider and Doyle did not immediately respond to CNN's request for comment.
                          "To ensure a safe working environment, the campaign had a process to address complaints of misconduct or harassment," Utrecht, Kleinfeld, Fiori, Partners, the law firm that represented Clinton's 2008 campaign, said in a statement provided to CNN by a Clinton spokesman. "When matters arose, they were reviewed in accordance with these policies, and appropriate action was taken. This complaint was no exception."
                          Strider spent much of his career inside the Clinton orbit. He developed a personal relationship with Clinton during the 2008 campaign by sending the then-senator Scripture readings every morning while she ran for president, and after the campaign he stayed close with the Clintons.
                          After the 2008 campaign, Strider was tasked to lead Correct the Record, an independent group that looked to rebut claims about Clinton as she prepared for her 2016 presidential run. The group was created by David Brock, a longtime Clinton ally.
                          Strider was later fired from the organization, however, after a series of issues, including allegations that he harassed multiple female staffers in person and over email, two sources with knowledge of his departure told CNN.
                          Brock did not immediately respond to CNN's request for comment.
                          Link
                          ___________

                          She'll get a pass from the Left, naturally. Besides, that was 2008. 10 years ago. Ancient history.
                          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            So, the harassment was reported, the offender was fined and forced to undergo retraining and the victim was moved to an adjacent office. If Ms Strider chooses to come forward and publicly state more should have been done at the time fine, until then Clinton listened (presumably to advice from both sides) and then took steps to correct the situation. Which is a dam site more than was done in other recently exposed cases.

                            You might not agree with the action taken but at least action was taken. Its not as if she just waved multiple allegations of sexual harassment out the door without taking action

                            And no I'm not a Hilary Clinton fan.
                            If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Monash View Post
                              So, the harassment was reported, the offender was fined and forced to undergo retraining and the victim was moved to an adjacent office. If Ms Strider chooses to come forward and publicly state more should have been done at the time fine, until then Clinton listened (presumably to advice from both sides) and then took steps to correct the situation. Which is a dam site more than was done in other recently exposed cases.

                              You might not agree with the action taken but at least action was taken. Its not as if she just waved multiple allegations of sexual harassment out the door without taking action

                              And no I'm not a Hilary Clinton fan.
                              And ignored the advice of her senior advisers. If this had been a GOP campaign, there'd be howls of disgust derision about the Republican War On Women.
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                                And ignored the advice of her senior advisers. If this had been a GOP campaign, there'd be howls of disgust derision about the Republican War On Women.
                                So, that's what advisers do - advise, not make the decision, just advise. The leader is the one who does the decision making and they're the ones that ultimately have to take responsibility. As for the rest possibly, but such is the nature of partisan politics at this point in time that for certain elements on the left and right wings of politics no decision made by the object of their derision will ever be correct (or if correct will at least have been made with (insert sinister ulterior) motive here.

                                Its got to the point where the Clinton's or Trump could announce tomorrow that they'd personally discovered a free cure for cancer and critics would come out of the wood work to complain. Point is that on this particular issue Clinton was made aware a problem existed. Listened to advice and then made took corrective action. It's up to the female staffer involved to say whether she thought the actions taken at the time were appropriate or not. Not all the late coming second guessers.

                                Anyway I suspect the real reason that her advisors recommended sacking at the time was not so much the serious of Strider's offending but the likely impact it would have on her campaign if the news leaked. So surprise, surprise it could have been a case of cynical politics rearing it's ugly head head again. I which case Clinton's decision not to fire the man could be seen as either brave or cowardly - since I wasn't a fly on the wall at the time it's hard to say which.
                                Last edited by Monash; 27 Jan 18,, 04:03.
                                If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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