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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    I don't see why Franken should have been pushed out until the Senate Ethics committee actually completed some sort of investigation and made some sort of recommendation.
    Because it was the decent thing to do.

    Despite what he said, if he resigned he must of felt he was guilty of some transgression. I also believe he knew the optics were horrible and decided to go.

    If things come out differently he could decide to run for his seat again but I don't know if that would happen.
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    Pushing people out during a media firestorm without any sort of investigation is the opposite of decency, otherwise we wouldn't have court systems. Granted, politics aren't courts, but the general principle doesn't go away, only what burden of proof and standard of due process applies.

    Despite what he said, if he resigned he must of felt he was guilty of some transgression
    This sounds like "well, if you take the 5th, you are obviously guilty."
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    The FEC test to determine campaign v personal is whether or not the payment would have been made irrespective of the candidacy.
    So when your lawyer says "suppose it came just before the election?" and the payment to something that did not happen is made just days before one person concerned stands for election actually it is just because that is what people like Trumpkin do - not that he saw any Ladies of the night in Moscow, oh no never. Nothing to do with elections right although Guiliani says that it is and although Cohen could have settled it ten years before but just happened to 'get around to it' days before Trumpkin was standing for election...

    Well sorry but if that is the best excuse there is we may see if Trumpkin tries pardoning because no jury is going to believe that. Honestly I treat this Trumpkin lot much the same as the Mafia in Moscow; don't believe it until they deny it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    Pushing people out during a media firestorm without any sort of investigation is the opposite of decency, otherwise we wouldn't have court systems. Granted, politics aren't courts, but the general principle doesn't go away, only what burden of proof and standard of due process applies.



    This sounds like "well, if you take the 5th, you are obviously guilty."
    GVC, you totally misread my point. I am saying as a man of honor if you have done something you must own up to it and take the consequences.

    In the matter of testimony it is perfectly honorable to use all of your rights. It is up to the prosecutor/questioner to prove you did something wrong.

    But as you said, he did this, rightly or wrongly, for the Democratic Party as a politician. I am sure he was gettin gpolling on how it was playing out back home....not well at all.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    citanon,

    trying to compare degrees of sexual harassment is not exactly a winning game.
    Asty, what I'm saying is that one is sexual harassment by a private individual who backed off when women actually objected and treated his spouses well, while the other is repeated physical assault, psychological control, and terroristic threats under the color of the law by an AG against a successive series of domestic partners.

    We have to acknowledge and recognize that these acts are fundamentally different. I find Trump's alleged behavior towards these women disgusting, but not enough that I won't hold my nose and vote for him when the direction of the country is on the line and the alternative is far worse. What helps counter my disgust is that he actually has the love of his family and treats his partners with care, which is always a plus when I evaluate someone's moral character.

    I also think we also have to recognize that there are many shades of gray in many areas of our lives. If we don't, we place all of us in glass houses that can shatter with one pebble, and that, in itself, is an insidious evil that can infect society.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Yes, because you were there with Trump the entire time he interacted with these women, you know exactly what hapened.

    Also, no one said Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal were abused, so stop setting up strawmen. Others, such as Summer Zervos and Jill Harth, did, and they tok their cases to court. Many others, like Jessica Leeds and Kristin Anderson have come forward with accounts of how he has tried to force himsef on them. some of these accounts go back to the '80s.
    Have you actually read the acounts?

    Rachel Crooks:
    In 2005, Rachel Crooks was a 22-year-old receptionist at Bayrock Group, a real estate investment and development company in Trump Tower in Manhattan. She says she encountered Trump in an elevator in the building one morning and turned to introduce herself. They shook hands, but Mr. Trump would not let go. Instead, he began kissing her cheeks, then directly on the mouth.[59][62] "It was so inappropriate," Crooks recalled in an interview. "I was so upset that he thought I was so insignificant that he could do that."[62] Her story was printed by The New York Times, along with that of Jessica Leeds.[59] Trump has disputed Crooks' claims,[3] writing on Twitter, "Who would do this in a public space with live security cameras running?"[79] Crooks is a public supporter and donor to Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign.[80]
    Holy shit! He tried to kiss her! Same as rape! Same as rape!

    Mindy McGillivray (2003)
    In an article by The Palm Beach Post, Mindy McGillivray stated that in January 2003, when she was 23 years old, she was groped by Trump at his Mar-a-Lago estate.[3][61] She said, "All of a sudden I felt a grab, a little nudge. I think it's [my friend Ken Davidoff's] camera bag, that was my first instinct. I turn around and there's Donald. He sort of looked away quickly."[3] Ken Davidoff, a photographer, corroborated McGillivray's account, saying he remembered her pulling him aside moments after the alleged incident to say "Donald just grabbed my ass!"[61]

    McGillivray said that she "chose to stay quiet"[58] and never reported the incident to authorities. She had only shared details of the incident with close family and friends until she heard Trump deny such behavior during the second presidential debate on October 9, 2016.[61] Hope Hicks, Trump's press secretary, stated that McGillivray's allegations lacked "any merit or veracity" and were untruthful.[58]
    OMG no, it might not have been a camera bag! And she didn't even tell the authorities!! I bet they could have broken out the grope kit and sent the Donald to prison for camera bag impersonation...


    Jessica Drake (2006)
    On October 22, 2016, Jessica Drake and attorney Gloria Allred held a news conference in which Drake accused Trump of having sexually assaulted her and two acquaintances nearly ten years prior. Drake, an adult film actress and sex education advocate, said that she met Trump at her company's booth during a charity golf tournament at Lake Tahoe in 2006. Drake claims that she was invited to meet with Trump, who was married at the time, at his hotel suite; she was "uncomfortable going alone" and brought two friends. Describing the meeting with Trump, Drake recounted that "He grabbed each of us tightly, in a hug and kissed each one of us without asking permission."[89] Drake stated that she and her friends left the suite after 30–45 minutes. Shortly thereafter, Drake claims she received phone calls from Trump or his associate, requesting that she join him in his suite for $10,000, and offering to fly her on his jet back to Los Angeles. She said she declined his offers.[89]
    This is some great stuff right there. Porn star goes up to his room (bringing two friends). He must then suspect..... intellectual discussions? Then he grabbed each of them tightly and kissed them. Heavens no the poor dears. How did they survive?

    Jill Harth (1992)

    Jill Harth alleges that Trump assaulted her several times. Harth has stated that in December 1992, while dining with Trump and her then-boyfriend George Houraney, Trump attempted to put his hands between her legs.[1] Harth and Houraney visited Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida in January 1993 for a contract-signing celebration. Trump, according to Harth, offered her a tour before pulling her into the empty bedroom of his daughter Ivanka. "I was admiring the decoration, and next thing I know he's pushing me against a wall and has his hands all over me. He was trying to kiss me. I was freaking out." Harth says she desperately protested against Trump's advances and eventually managed to run out of the room. She and her boyfriend left rather than stay the night, as they had intended.[1] After she became engaged, Harth alleges, Trump began to stalk her.[3]

    Harth filed a lawsuit in 1997 in which she accused Trump of non-consensual groping of her body, among them her "intimate private parts",[24][25] and "relentless" sexual harassment.[26] The suit was withdrawn after Houraney settled with Trump for an undisclosed amount in a lawsuit that claimed that Trump backed out of a business deal.[1][27] She still claims to have been sexually assaulted[1] and although he was never violent with her, she says his actions were "unwanted and aggressive, very sexually aggressive".[3]

    Following the incident, Harth said she received "a couple years of therapy". In 2015 she reached out to Trump's campaign to get a job as a makeup artist and sell her men's cosmetic product line. She later said, "Yes, I had moved on but had not forgotten the pain [Trump] brought into my life. I was older, wiser. Trump was married to Melania and I had hoped he was a changed man."[28] She worked at one of Trump's rallies as a makeup artist. Of the experience, she said: "I'm a makeup artist. The guy is a mess, OK? He really needed my services, and I'm a makeup artist that needs a job. Why would, if I was on friendly terms, why wouldn't I try to get that job?"[3]
    This one is just fantastic. She was horribly victimized and then.... reached out to his campaign to be his makeup artist again? Oh of course. He was a mess. She needed a job. They were on friendly terms.

    Not the entire list but pretty typical of the list.

    In your world, choking is bad (and rightly so) but boobs and pussy grabbing are "pretty tepid", never mind the fact that when powerful people do them, the women concerned may feel just as helpless.

    It is shameful and disgusting that you are trying to find equivalence between levels of sexual abuse, just because in once case it is done by a man you endorse.
    Melodramatic much? Stop being an infant.

    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    I don't see why Franken should have been pushed out until the Senate Ethics committee actually completed some sort of investigation and made some sort of recommendation.
    Franken saw a bus coming and not one photon of any of his flock of "friends" who all scattered immediately like startled squirrels realizing they were just standing next to a rabid coyote. Pretty typical Democratic party loyalty. Then again, when your political platform rests on moral sanctimony and moral absolutism, it's hard to survive the discovery of your personal hypocrisy.

    The Democratic Party today has embraced moral populism as a political strategy. Consequently, liberal politicians now live in the glass house that I posited at the top of this post. They can have their moment in the sun there, but boy the shards fall quick and cut deep when the pebbles hit.

    Franken just experienced the world that the Democrats want all of us to live in. I don't know if he felt it was for him, but it sure isn't for me.
    Last edited by citanon; 09 May 18, at 20:55.

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    citanon,

    Asty, what I'm saying is that one is sexual harassment by a private individual who backed off when women actually objected and treated his spouses well,
    lol...and what is this but trying to compare degrees of sexual harassment?

    if your going in position is that "this is not the same!" then i'd say everyone agrees. last i checked this guy is out of a job while Trump continues to Trump.

    moreover you're really minimizing what Trump has done. he's also repeatedly publicly humiliated women-- Alicia Machado, Mika Brzezinski, Megyn Kelly-- and do you REALLY think he just kept his "grabbing" at just...words?

    What helps counter my disgust is that he actually has the love of his family and treats his partners with care,
    i'm sure Melania must have been filled with love and understanding when she heard that her husband was raw-dogging a porn star a week or so after the birth of Barron.

    The Democratic Party today has embraced moral populism as a political strategy
    pointing out the Donald's many various failings hardly constitutes "moral populism". i'd say "moral populism" is stuff like this:

    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...sault-on-merry
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    Here's another thing to think about. Our planet is a nice place for us to live because of our biosphere.

    Let's assume that the galaxy is full of planets with environments that can support carbon based life. How many could have evolved along parallel evolutionary paths that make the place entirely inhospitable to us? Here are a couple of scenarios:

    The just like us except with plastics scenario: a planet full of complex carbon based life based on biomolecular building blocks entirely incompatible with our own. Eg, some form of XNA instead of DNA, some form of bioplastic instead of proteins made from amino acids, something that hates an oxygen rich atmosphere. We can go to many planets, and find vibrant biospheres full of life, only life that is so different from our own biochemistry we will have no way of eating the plants, no way of coexisting symbiotically with the micro-organisms or eating any of the food or breathing the air.

    The single cellular goo scenario: instead of evolving into multicellular organisms, the planet's biosphere developed into single cellular amoebas that are so biochemically adept and potent, they prevent any more complicated life from forming. The biosphere is a horror pit of hyper sophisticated biochemical warfare. Anything that enters gets chomped down into little components that become amoeba food.

    The hyperintelligent philosopher dolphin scenario: Instead of evolving a technological society, a water world with abundant sea life creates a race of hyper intelligent dolphins who have no real technology but extraordinarily complex and nuanced philosophy. Any visitors to the planet soon gets drawn into endless debates about life, ethics, spirituality, female dolphin studies, and are driven to flee in horror.

    Ok, I'm kidding about the last part, but points 1 or 2 might be quite plausible. Any intelligent aliens would need to spend millions of years making such planets hospitable and comfortable, making them ask: why bother?

    I wouldn't be surprised if the first reaction from alien visitors upon finding a technological civilization on earth would be WTF??? Followed by pure amateur hour on both sides......
    Aw shieet, what if The Thing from the movie The Thing got to a populated continent. How would that play out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    citanon,
    lol...and what is this but trying to compare degrees of sexual harassment?

    if your going in position is that "this is not the same!" then i'd say everyone agrees. last i checked this guy is out of a job while Trump continues to Trump.
    Can you honestly say you don't see a difference?

    One is an hr issue, the other is a guy committing a felonious assault on his own domestic partner as the AG of the state and the guy who wrote law on the felony in the first place!

    moreover you're really minimizing what Trump has done. he's also repeatedly publicly humiliated women-- Alicia Machado, Mika Brzezinski, Megyn Kelly-- and do you REALLY think he just kept his "grabbing" at just...words?
    Oh heavens no. He didn't, he couldn't humiliate a lady!

    Come on now. You want sexual equality but at the same time want women to be treated with kiddie gloves? The ladies will man up but then take umbridge.

    You play big boy games you will win big boy prizes. I have zero care how he humiliated that bunch.

    As for doing what he said, we've heard all about it from that list. If you take stock he comes off as a more brash version of Charlie Rose or Matt Lauer. Nothing that rises to the level of an Harvey Weinstein or a Bill Clinton.

    And yeah I'm putting shades of gray there. Deal with it. The insanity today is not that we are distinguishing between degree of immorality, but that some of us are actually trying to turn shades of gray into black and white.

    Whenever that has happened in history, the abyss followed soon after. I reject the legitimacy of doing so categorically.

    i'm sure Melania must have been filled with love and understanding when she heard that her husband was raw-dogging a porn star a week or so after the birth of Barron.

    And we should care about this because? If you say out of sympathy to her then I might consider it, but I suspect sympathy is rather thin for Melania on the left.

    She made her choices, she's not getting abused. It's her business.


    pointing out the Donald's many various failings hardly constitutes "moral populism". i'd say "moral populism" is stuff like this:

    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...sault-on-merry
    Do you really think protectIng a beloved tradition is the same thing as using moral paranoia to upend society and gain advantage on a person by person basis?

    You guys on the left are brainwashing yourselves to a scary degree.

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    One is an hr issue, the other is a guy committing a felonious assault on his own domestic partner as the AG of the state and the guy who wrote law on the felony in the first place!
    i'd say worse than a HR issue, but you're right: it's not the same, which is why calls for Trump's impeachment aren't connected to his relations with women. and if the AG is found guilty, then he deserves punishment. can Trump supporters say the same about him?

    you play big boy games you will win big boy prizes. I have zero care how he humiliated that bunch.
    And we should care about this because? If you say out of sympathy to her then I might consider it, but I suspect sympathy is rather thin for Melania on the left.

    She made her choices, she's not getting abused. It's her business.
    if you see nothing wrong with a President or even a Presidential nominee conducting himself in such a way, then i'd submit that your assessment of his character based on "the love of his family and treats his partners with care" is pretty funny.

    Do you really think protectIng a beloved tradition is the same thing as using moral paranoia to upend society and gain advantage on a person by person basis?
    eh, spare me the crocodile tears. hmmm, how did Trump come onto the political stage again? something to do with a birth certificate?

    forget brainwashing on the left; it amuses me to great degree to see the number of conservatives running around wondering how Trump hijacked the movement and made it his own personal fief.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    I find Trump's alleged behavior towards these women disgusting, but not enough that I won't hold my nose and vote for him when the direction of the country is on the line and the alternative is far worse. What helps counter my disgust is that he actually has the love of his family and treats his partners with care, which is always a plus when I evaluate someone's moral character.
    You are referring to the self centered, egotistical, amoral, lying bully who most of all has no honor? That guy, right? Be careful of those you keep company with as their dirt becomes your dirt in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    Asty, what I'm saying is that one is sexual harassment by a private individual who backed off when women actually objected and treated his spouses well, while the other is repeated physical assault, psychological control, and terroristic threats under the color of the law by an AG against a successive series of domestic partners.

    We have to acknowledge and recognize that these acts are fundamentally different. I find Trump's alleged behavior towards these women disgusting, but not enough that I won't hold my nose and vote for him when the direction of the country is on the line and the alternative is far worse. What helps counter my disgust is that he actually has the love of his family and treats his partners with care, which is always a plus when I evaluate someone's moral character.

    I also think we also have to recognize that there are many shades of gray in many areas of our lives. If we don't, we place all of us in glass houses that can shatter with one pebble, and that, in itself, is an insidious evil that can infect society.



    Have you actually read the acounts?

    Rachel Crooks:


    Holy shit! He tried to kiss her! Same as rape! Same as rape!

    Mindy McGillivray (2003)


    OMG no, it might not have been a camera bag! And she didn't even tell the authorities!! I bet they could have broken out the grope kit and sent the Donald to prison for camera bag impersonation...


    Jessica Drake (2006)


    This is some great stuff right there. Porn star goes up to his room (bringing two friends). He must then suspect..... intellectual discussions? Then he grabbed each of them tightly and kissed them. Heavens no the poor dears. How did they survive?

    Jill Harth (1992)



    This one is just fantastic. She was horribly victimized and then.... reached out to his campaign to be his makeup artist again? Oh of course. He was a mess. She needed a job. They were on friendly terms.

    Not the entire list but pretty typical of the list.



    Melodramatic much? Stop being an infant.



    Franken saw a bus coming and not one photon of any of his flock of "friends" who all scattered immediately like startled squirrels realizing they were just standing next to a rabid coyote. Pretty typical Democratic party loyalty. Then again, when your political platform rests on moral sanctimony and moral absolutism, it's hard to survive the discovery of your personal hypocrisy.

    The Democratic Party today has embraced moral populism as a political strategy. Consequently, liberal politicians now live in the glass house that I posited at the top of this post. They can have their moment in the sun there, but boy the shards fall quick and cut deep when the pebbles hit.

    Franken just experienced the world that the Democrats want all of us to live in. I don't know if he felt it was for him, but it sure isn't for me.
    OK, so you really don't give a shit about sexual assault or sexual predators as long as you like them. I thought as much, but its helpful for you to spell it out in such detail. Rolled gold hypocrisy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    OK, so you really don't give a shit about sexual assault or sexual predators as long as you like them. I thought as much, but its helpful for you to spell it out in such detail. Rolled gold hypocrisy.
    Oh I'm revolted by sexual predators and sexual assault, but I'm even more repulsed by people attempting to shift and extremify the definition of evil and criminal to create moral panic for crass political ends, personal greed, and grab for power disguised as so called social progress.

    The former victimize individuals, the latter damage all of society. My parents and gandparents' generation saw the result of these impulses taken to their logical ends. No thanks. No way.

    If it takes a Trump to stop this cancer so be it.
    Last edited by citanon; 10 May 18, at 06:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    Come on now. You want sexual equality but at the same time want women to be treated with kiddie gloves? The ladies will man up but then take umbridge.
    Are you freaking kidding me? Your attempt to trivialize sexual abuse if it is not outright rape is despicable. To your other question, yes, I have read the accounts, and I noticed how you focussed on the ones where he forcibly kissed and left out the ones where he forcibky grabbed their genitals or breasts.

    You are being evasive and downright dishonest, and you know that very well.

    You are fit Trump's description of his base perfectly: If he shoots someone in broad daylight you would still support him and probably justify by saying that at least he did not commit genocide.
    Last edited by antimony; 10 May 18, at 06:49.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    Oh I'm revolted by sexual predators and sexual assault, but I'm even more repulsed by people attempting to shift and extremify the definition of evil and criminal for crass political ends.

    The former victimize individuals, the latter damage all of society.

    If it takes a Trump to stop this crap so be it.
    Great, you are repulsed more by unsavory political discourse than by sexual abuse. Exactly what I would expect from a Trumper.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    Oh I'm revolted by sexual predators and sexual assault, but I'm even more repulsed by people attempting to shift and extremify the definition of evil and criminal for crass political ends.

    The former victimize individuals, the latter damage all of society.

    If it takes a Trump to stop this crap so be it.
    I like it when people agree with me. Thanks.

    To summarize: Trump = good; sexual assault victims = don't matter. Could not be clearer.


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