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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Human libability is limited to one's car insurance. The AI's liability is limited to what the company is worth in putting out a flawed and dangerous product.
    Will we not pay insurance for driverless cars? Sounds like another benefit if true but I am sure we will still be paying insurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Will we not pay insurance for driverless cars? Sounds like another benefit if true but I am sure we will still be paying insurance.
    A knowingly defective product causing death. Litigation lawyers would be lining up.

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    As they do currently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    As they do currently.
    Hence, low confidence of actually putting driverless cars on the roads anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I read somewhere that the first flip phone was called the 'Star Tac' - the manufacturer wanted to called it the 'Star Trek Phone' but Paramount or whomever wouldn't sell them the rights to do so.
    That's more than likely a myth.

    While anything is possible of course, the inventor of the original Motorola DynaTAC, Martin Cooper, was incorrectly stated to be inspired by the TOS flip communicators to invent the cell phone, but the StarTAC name didn't come around until 1996, and Cooper himself states that he was actually inspired by Dick Tracy's wrist radio, not Star Trek.

    The original DynaTAC name came from "Dynamic Adaptive Total Area Coverage" and the "TAC" was used on the next version MicroTAC and then finally to StarTAC.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post

    Probably not a good idea to get into the aliens stuff though until they really get to know you. Fun stuff to think about though.
    If Aliens show up we are doomed. Intelligence requires comptetition. Prey animals don't master the stars. On top of that, what ever colonists are in deep sleep probably have merciless robots awake to do all the prep work. No talking, no bargaining, just some asteroids from impact then let the dust settle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    If Aliens show up we are doomed. Intelligence requires comptetition. Prey animals don't master the stars. On top of that, what ever colonists are in deep sleep probably have merciless robots awake to do all the prep work. No talking, no bargaining, just some asteroids from impact then let the dust settle.
    I'm sure a race that advanced could simply bio-engineer viruses to remove whatever lifeforms they find inconvenient, then colonize the planet with lifeforms suitable for them. If conquest and settlement is the goal. If immediate destruction of a competitor is the goal with no concerns regarding colonization, or their biology is exotic and the Earth is wholly unsuited toward them, e.g. they're not carbon-based, or water-drinking, or oxygen-breathing, in that case an asteroid or three will do the trick. If they want to keep the Earth as a zoo purely as a site of interest, they could again simply bio-engineer a virus to remove the species that is a potential threat, i.e. us.
    What I don't want to see is the Bills winning a Super Bowl. As long as I'm alive that doesn't happen.

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    Going back to Eric Greiten, the Governor of Missouri, you'd think that the background checks and psych evaluations for the SEAL selection process should have weeded him out due to character and judgment issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
    Going back to Eric Greiten, the Governor of Missouri, you'd think that the background checks and psych evaluations for the SEAL selection process should have weeded him out due to character and judgment issues.
    Bad behaviors can show up after such screenings, especially after stressful or traumatic life events.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Those are Chinese owned ships. None of them are returning to the US. Five of them just found new buyers. China is not the only one looking for cheap soy.
    I think the Nov elections in the farming states will the answer you are looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    No one is getting rid of surveyors. All the tech is going to do is to alloiw them to do more. Yeah a 6 man team just became a 2 man team but that only means that there are 3 teams instead of 1. There is that much demand.
    Here is the problem - Industry is ditching a lot of more traditional jobs for fewer. more specialized jobs. Unless you have skills built up for these specialized jobs, yuou are out of the loop. In tech, black box testing has been replaced by automation, which itself has been replaced by DevOps. There are many openings with high pay, but only for higher skilled resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    No one is stopping anyone from seeking re-training or getting the proper education. Trump is not spending one single cent to protect industries under threat. It is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to put food on the table and a roof over your head. There are tons of programs out there to help you do just that. To blame Trump for anyone's failure to provide food and shelter is a cop out.
    Uh no, there are many federally funded programs from the Obama era in Coal country (e.g. the Appalachian Regional Commission) which teach everything from computer skills to nursing, which may not be refunded. Also, in some cases, miners are ejecting re-training because they have been told that coal will be back.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Not one single bit. Those patches are expensive to begin with, requiring more material and manpower to manfuacture and the patch still needs to be repaired, not reducing a repair cost nor manpower by 1 hour or by 1 person.

    The GS proves my point. I used Master Plumber/Electrician as the example but the GS is EARNING his money through the Trades; NOT requiring government retraining to make apps for Iphone.
    Are you really going to compare the earnings of plumbers vs software engineers? Your romance with blue collar journeymen jobs is misplaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    When was the last time a fighter jet test pilot died? The testing is not mature.
    Not ony is the testing not stopping but the scope itself will expand. Trucking companies are now experimenting with platooning, which goes from single vehicles to convoys.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Software. In all honesty, I don't see the big cahoots. Google OS is just a fancy UNIX and the only reason why Win10 is dominating is because MS stopped support for XP. Server level software I can see need expanding but desktop? Since when do you need 8 gigs of ram to type up a memo?

    However, no matter how you word this. Production MUST be shut down to implement new hardware, especially new hardware, and new software. You can test everything up the ying-yang but the final test is an actual production run and then deal with the headaches and heartaches that inevitably will come up. Now is this faster or slower than simply repairing what went wrong in the first place?

    There's a reason why industries did not want to go off XP. It ain't broke, don't fix it.
    What are you talking about? When was the last time Amazon had a shut down? Infra is in the cloud now, companies do not need shutdowns to upgrade. Yes, there are internal server specifc shutdowns but customers do not feel a thing. There are SAAS companies that I have worked with (nowhere near as big as MS or AMZN) that promise 100% uptime, including upgrades.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    XBox birdbrains don't use bayonets. And drones don't dare to go where bellycrawlers do.

    For glorified XBox Birdbrains? Only with a Gurkha RSM supervision
    But they do go to a lot of places, which means lesser boots on ground. Hell even the IA is catching up.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Last Western military bayonet charge was 1 PWRR 2011 against the Taliban. Before that, the RAR did it in Vietnam. And the British Army, including the Gurkhas, did several uphill charges against the Argentines. 2004 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders charged the Iraqis. USMC reguarlarily fixed bayonets as a means of intimitation for crowd control.

    You do not want to see combat videos from the Soviet-Afghan and the Chechen Wars.

    You don't want to test military history with me.
    I very specifically said US Army. I know bayonets are still in use, hell IA probably uses them on a daily basis in COIN Ops. But you are being disingenuous if you are going to tell me that bayonet usage is not as common. Is bayonet training even done during basic training in the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    There are a hell of a lot of farmers who disagree with you. Same shit. Different bowl.

    Not because of chatbots but an entire new generation who grew up on iphones (costs) and got trained on apps (more costs). This generation knows howto search for answers. This is a far cry from the generation who got introduced raw to LOTUS-123 and WORDPERFECT.

    Yes, you reduced your team but only because someone else paid to train your users.
    No, I am not talking search. I am talking chatbots that use ML to offer matching answers and learn as they go. And a lot of the users (in some of my projects) are crusty old salespeople who cut their teeth selling Mainframes but now are selling SaaS.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I think the Nov elections in the farming states will the answer you are looking for.
    That wasn't your point. Your point was that they lost money.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Here is the problem - Industry is ditching a lot of more traditional jobs for fewer. more specialized jobs. Unless you have skills built up for these specialized jobs, yuou are out of the loop. In tech, black box testing has been replaced by automation, which itself has been replaced by DevOps. There are many openings with high pay, but only for higher skilled resources.
    You know what surveyors get paid for? Spending months on end, being wet, hungry, in the middle of nowhere finding the things the companies want. Technology will help but will not replace this. I've spend a month with the Rangers doing exactly this.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Uh no, there are many federally funded programs from the Obama era in Coal country (e.g. the Appalachian Regional Commission) which teach everything from computer skills to nursing, which may not be refunded. Also, in some cases, miners are ejecting re-training because they have been told that coal will be back.
    Again, personal responsbility. It is your job to find the job you're able to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Are you really going to compare the earnings of plumbers vs software engineers? Your romance with blue collar journeymen jobs is misplaced.
    I will compare a working plumber to an out of work software engineer any day of the week. That coal miner has a much better chance at becoming a plumber than he does a software engineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Not ony is the testing not stopping but the scope itself will expand. Trucking companies are now experimenting with platooning, which goes from single vehicles to convoys.
    Again, confidence is NOT high that driveless cars are anywhere near ready. Driverless freighters are even further off, especially when you consider that a decision to avoid a crash has to be made 30-40 minutes before the crash and a lot of factors not under your control, such as the course of the other guy who also must make his decision 30-40 minutes before the crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    What are you talking about? When was the last time Amazon had a shut down? Infra is in the cloud now, companies do not need shutdowns to upgrade. Yes, there are internal server specifc shutdowns but customers do not feel a thing. There are SAAS companies that I have worked with (nowhere near as big as MS or AMZN) that promise 100% uptime, including upgrades.
    Blackout 2003 and the resulting data corruption/recovery mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    But they do go to a lot of places, which means lesser boots on ground. Hell even the IA is catching up.
    No plane has ever taken or held ground, much less a drone. I have news for you. Drones will not go into a high intensity combat situation with massive signal interference. It takes a radar the size of a MiG-23 nosecone to burn through these interrences. A tiny drone is not going carry that much power. In combat against the Russians or the Chinese, we can expect massive electronic interference that would drown out any control signal to any drone. Never mind the tripple As that would rip these things to shred. You misunderstood what drones can do and cannot do. The effective combat asset in this scenario is the bellycrawler. The drone will get the hell out of there.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I very specifically said US Army. I know bayonets are still in use, hell IA probably uses them on a daily basis in COIN Ops. But you are being disingenuous if you are going to tell me that bayonet usage is not as common. Is bayonet training even done during basic training in the US?
    You are being disingenious to suggest close quarter combat will not happen. Bayonet training is still going on but while the USMC retains the fixed bayonet training. The USArmy are training their soldiers to use their bayonets as melee/stabbing weapons without fixing it to the rifle. So yes, getting back to the sword fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    No, I am not talking search. I am talking chatbots that use ML to offer matching answers and learn as they go. And a lot of the users (in some of my projects) are crusty old salespeople who cut their teeth selling Mainframes but now are selling SaaS.
    Yes, this generation can text and ask the questions. Go back 40 years and we were dealing with users who had trouble with "Press any key."
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 22 Apr 18, at 04:53.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    That wasn't your point. Your point was that they lost money.
    They feel they are losing money, which is good enough for me

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You know what surveyors get paid for? Spending months on end, being wet, hungry, in the middle of nowhere finding the things the companies want. Technology will help but will not replace this. I've spend a month with the Rangers doing exactly this.
    Technology does not need to replace, technology needs to reduce headcount. Again, go and look how the exact same job is being performed in places like India and tell me manpower has not already come down.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Again, personal responsbility. It is your job to find the job you're able to do.
    The government can help. Realize this: in a state like WA, especially in the Puget Sounds region there are lots of opportunities to retrain. In places like Kentucky there are less opportunities. If Trump cuts these Federal rograms then he will be hurting his supporters the most.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I will compare a working plumber to an out of work software engineer any day of the week. That coal miner has a much better chance at becoming a plumber than he does a software engineer.
    That is really elitist thinking. Coal miners, using these retraining programs, have become software engineers and have found jobs, whether you like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Again, confidence is NOT high that driveless cars are anywhere near ready. Driverless freighters are even further off, especially when you consider that a decision to avoid a crash has to be made 30-40 minutes before the crash and a lot of factors not under your control, such as the course of the other guy who also must make his decision 30-40 minutes before the crash.
    We will see in a few years, lets leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Blackout 2003 and the resulting data corruption/recovery mode.
    LOL, 2003?
    What was that, a hundred years back? Amazon and Google were babies, Facebook and Twitter were not born, the Cloud had not taken off. The world was a different place, as far as high tech was concerned.

    Here, let me help you.

    The last massive outage for AWS, was an S3 Service disruption in Feb 28th 2017, between 9:37 AM PST and 1:54 PM PST, where a human error during an upgrade took down more S3 servers than planned. Subsequently, some other services that use S3 for storage like EC2 or use S3 APIs like EBS and Lambda also went down. How did Amazon respond? By including more safeguards during capacity upgrades, including reducing the ability for further human errors. In other works, more automated safeguards.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    No plane has ever taken or held ground, much less a drone. I have news for you. Drones will not go into a high intensity combat situation with massive signal interference. It takes a radar the size of a MiG-23 nosecone to burn through these interrences. A tiny drone is not going carry that much power. In combat against the Russians or the Chinese, we can expect massive electronic interference that would drown out any control signal to any drone. Never mind the tripple As that would rip these things to shred. You misunderstood what drones can do and cannot do. The effective combat asset in this scenario is the bellycrawler. The drone will get the hell out of there.
    What jobs can the armed drones do? Who did that before drones?

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You are being disingenious to suggest close quarter combat will not happen. Bayonet training is still going on but while the USMC retains the fixed bayonet training. The USArmy are training their soldiers to use their bayonets as melee/stabbing weapons without fixing it to the rifle. So yes, getting back to the sword fight.
    I am not saying that. I did however see this:
    https://www.army.mil/article/42500/2...ombat_training

    If you say bayonets are going to stay, then, fine, you know this better than I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Yes, this generation can text and ask the questions. Go back 40 years and we were dealing with users who had trouble with "Press any key."
    The part that I am trying to point out is this: what the chatbot answers today based on a question is going to completely change a few days later, for the same question, because the cahtbot has evolved. The user did not change, the machine did.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    They feel they are losing money, which is good enough for me
    You're changing the goal post.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Technology does not need to replace, technology needs to reduce headcount. Again, go and look how the exact same job is being performed in places like India and tell me manpower has not already come down.
    I did and all I found were unsafe conditions that would never be tolerated in North America. Perhaps you can google or youtube better examples? All I found were deaths on the construction sites.

    Considering that labour is so cheap in India, I strongly doubt that many construction companies would spend the upfront investment.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    The government can help. Realize this: in a state like WA, especially in the Puget Sounds region there are lots of opportunities to retrain. In places like Kentucky there are less opportunities. If Trump cuts these Federal rograms then he will be hurting his supporters the most.
    Again, personal responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    That is really elitist thinking. Coal miners, using these retraining programs, have become software engineers and have found jobs, whether you like it or not.
    What is so elitist in providing job oppertunities? I am not going to stop any coal miner who wants to become a nuclear scientist or a plumber. What I am saying is that it is his job to find the job he can do. I am not going to put food on the table for him. I will give him the equality of oppertunity but I am not going to guarrantee him the equality of outcome. You're trying to give him the same pay as he did before. The only way that is going to happen is that you rob someone else to give this guy a leg up.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    We will see in a few years, lets leave it at that.
    We won't or at least I won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    LOL, 2003?
    What was that, a hundred years back? Amazon and Google were babies, Facebook and Twitter were not born, the Cloud had not taken off. The world was a different place, as far as high tech was concerned.
    My wars were in the 1990s.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Here, let me help you.

    The last massive outage for AWS, was an S3 Service disruption in Feb 28th 2017, between 9:37 AM PST and 1:54 PM PST, where a human error during an upgrade took down more S3 servers than planned. Subsequently, some other services that use S3 for storage like EC2 or use S3 APIs like EBS and Lambda also went down. How did Amazon respond? By including more safeguards during capacity upgrades, including reducing the ability for further human errors. In other works, more automated safeguards.
    Sounds insufficent for a 11 Sept, Ice Storm 98, and Blackout 2003. Northridfge Earthquake. You know, when the entire electric grid was shut down or all travel banned and the data destroyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    What jobs can the armed drones do?
    Monitoring low tech opposing force and assassination of such leadership.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Who did that before drones?
    Undercover spies.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    I am not saying that. I did however see this:
    https://www.army.mil/article/42500/2...ombat_training
    Your googlefu is weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    If you say bayonets are going to stay, then, fine, you know this better than I do.
    The bayonet course is still around and it's up to individual commanders to decide to train for it or not. Us engineers don't have time but line infantry might decide to include it. It's not to actually to train to stab someone but to steel your nerves to overrun your enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    The part that I am trying to point out is this: what the chatbot answers today based on a question is going to completely change a few days later, for the same question, because the cahtbot has evolved. The user did not change, the machine did.
    You're dealing with a user who can at least goto the site to ask the question. I had a civilian tailor who waited 30 minutes for tech support to press "any key."
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 22 Apr 18, at 06:20.

  14. #794
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You're changing the goal post.
    How am I changing the goal post? I am not a farmer, I am reading the grumblings from farmers.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I did and all I found were unsafe conditions that would never be tolerated in North America. Perhaps you can google or youtube better examples? All I found were deaths on the construction sites.

    Considering that labour is so cheap in India, I strongly doubt that many construction companies would spend the upfront investment.
    It is not always about safety, it is more about cheap labor, But that illustrates my point. Technology costs come down, even below manual labor. Therefore, unless forced by regulation (which is a real possibility), companies will move to machines. Even in India, over the years I have seen a lot of the manual jobs at road or building construction sites taken over by machines while safety systems (helmets and high Viz jackets) have come on. One of the big complaints of the MNREGA employment guarantee scheme now is that it focusses on building assets instead of employing people (translation : machines are being used instead of people). The result is that the pace of road construction have picked up, even as less manual laborers (comparatively) are getting employed.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Again, personal responsibility.

    What is so elitist in providing job opportunities? I am not going to stop any coal miner who wants to become a nuclear scientist or a plumber. What I am saying is that it is his job to find the job he can do. I am not going to put food on the table for him. I will give him the equality of oppertunity but I am not going to guarrantee him the equality of outcome. You're trying to give him the same pay as he did before. The only way that is going to happen is that you rob someone else to give this guy a leg up.
    But Col, where will they get this training if you stop funding the training programs? In Seattle, there are plenty of opportunities, not so much in rural Appalachia. No one is giving or asking for handouts. The focus is on training/ re-skilling programs. After that it is on them to get jobs. And they are getting that. That is why Eastern Kentucky is not "Silicon Hollow"

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Sounds insufficent for a 11 Sept, Ice Storm 98, and Blackout 2003. Northridfge Earthquake. You know, when the entire electric grid was shut down or all travel banned and the data destroyed?
    You know, that sounds like a generation ago, because it is. Nowadays, DR systems are quite robust.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Monitoring low tech opposing force and assassination of such leadership.

    Undercover spies.
    So we need fewer spooks then.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Your googlefu is weak.

    The bayonet course is still around and it's up to individual commanders to decide to train for it or not. Us engineers don't have time but line infantry might decide to include it. It's not to actually to train to stab someone but to steel your nerves to overrun your enemy.
    My googlefu is weak?? It is a Mil website!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You're dealing with a user who can at least goto the site to ask the question. I had a civilian tailor who waited 30 minutes for tech support to press "any key."
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    How am I changing the goal post? I am not a farmer, I am reading the grumblings from farmers.
    You are being chicken little. Yes, Trump made things tough but it isn't anything the farmers have not weathered before.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    It is not always about safety, it is more about cheap labor, But that illustrates my point. Technology costs come down, even below manual labor. Therefore, unless forced by regulation (which is a real possibility), companies will move to machines. Even in India, over the years I have seen a lot of the manual jobs at road or building construction sites taken over by machines while safety systems (helmets and high Viz jackets) have come on. One of the big complaints of the MNREGA employment guarantee scheme now is that it focusses on building assets instead of employing people (translation : machines are being used instead of people). The result is that the pace of road construction have picked up, even as less manual laborers (comparatively) are getting employed.
    You point to India as the example. I cannot find any.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    But Col, where will they get this training if you stop funding the training programs? In Seattle, there are plenty of opportunities, not so much in rural Appalachia. No one is giving or asking for handouts. The focus is on training/ re-skilling programs. After that it is on them to get jobs. And they are getting that. That is why Eastern Kentucky is not "Silicon Hollow"
    The training was always there. You're asking tax payer dollars to pay for it instead out of the person's own pockets.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    You know, that sounds like a generation ago, because it is. Nowadays, DR systems are quite robust.
    At the end of the day, you need to keep that conveyor belt going. I don't care how many servers or data entry points or data recovery systems you have. That conveyor belt stops, your production stops. In the case of Amazon, if the planes don't fly (as on 11 Sept), they don't deliver.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    So we need fewer spooks then.
    Far from it. We still need spooks to tell the drones where to look. And we need more people (pilots, sigs management, backup power grid, mechanics, fuel management, MPs to guard the ops room) to operate those drones than a 2 man sniper team lying in wait for their targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    My googlefu is weak?? It is a Mil website!!!
    Yep. You just googled bayonet and then pick out the web site. Yet, we still issue the bayonet and you did not asked why.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 22 Apr 18, at 14:19.

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  3. American political duplication between Riyadh and Israel
    By ahmed in forum International Politics
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 29 Apr 07,, 22:06

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