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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    You have not seen robots or machines do these jobs? Seriously? Go and see how construction takes place in India and then compare to the way they happen in the US with a lot less hands. These will get further mechanized. Also you have not seen machinary installations and QA work automated?
    I've searched across youtube and google and found nothing that would suggest a mechanized construction site. You have any examples?

  2. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Not in the real world. You don't go into a job knowing everything. My CO's job was to get me ready to replace him just as my job was to get ready my DCO to replace me. You get credit for learning the ropes but hell to be paid if you think you know more than your boss at running his business. You're hired to make money for your boss and that means learning how the boss expects you to work; not doing your own thing.
    On the one hand you want to condemn younger generations for their perceived failings, on the other you want your generation to get the credit if this apparently useless generation does anything right. That is a perfect example of prejudice in action. You have worked out your conclusion already and will get there by hook or by crook.

    Using your model your generation gets no credit for anything it does either, including training the next generation. That, in turn, means you don't get any sort of high ground from which to bitch about younger people. Somehow I don't think you will be as keen to accept that.

    As I said, I work in an office with a big age spread. There is a big group either under 30 or just passed it and there is another group over 50 and into its 60s. I find that the 21 year olds work every bit as hard as the 61 year olds, but with less complaining. Some of the 20 somethings are actually harder & more skilled workers than some of the 50 somethings. By far the worst employee is a lady in her mid 50s who has never learned how to get to work on time, while thre is a 21 year old who currently gets up insanely early & travels 5-6 hours a day to work. My immediate boss, who got the job in his early 20s, is far & away the best boss I've ever had of any age. Based on our conversations the biggest lesson he got from older managers before he came to us was how NOT to manage.

    I'm glad that I work in a place with a diverse age range because it handily cures me of the conceit that any one generation is much better than another.


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  3. #738
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You, Sir, are sick, evil, twisted, and mentally deranged.

    Bravo.
    https://youtu.be/zZct-itCwPE?t=266
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  4. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    On the one hand you want to condemn younger generations for their perceived failings, on the other you want your generation to get the credit if this apparently useless generation does anything right. That is a perfect example of prejudice in action. You have worked out your conclusion already and will get there by hook or by crook.

    Using your model your generation gets no credit for anything it does either, including training the next generation. That, in turn, means you don't get any sort of high ground from which to bitch about younger people. Somehow I don't think you will be as keen to accept that.
    Wrong. Until this generation earned the right to be arrogant, then they are just young assholes who don't know what they are doing. Your office examples serves perfectly well the differences. Your older generation got corporate knowledge how to work and they learned no matter what they do, good or bad, things will not change. So, why fight it. You got a good manager right now. What about the next?

    There is a hell of a lot of difference between Colonels and Lieutenants. I know who I listen to when in the field and it ain't a one bar.

  5. #740
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Wrong. Until this generation earned the right to be arrogant, then they are just young assholes who don't know what they are doing. Your office examples serves perfectly well the differences. Your older generation got corporate knowledge how to work and they learned no matter what they do, good or bad, things will not change. So, why fight it. You got a good manager right now. What about the next?

    There is a hell of a lot of difference between Colonels and Lieutenants. I know who I listen to when in the field and it ain't a one bar.
    Sorry, but this is just devolving into a pointless rant and it really isn't worth the waste of my time.

    Young people aren't lazy & they aren't arrogant. They are just trying to make their way the same as everyone else. They are no better or worse than anyone else. Unfortunately some older people feel the need to shit on them for on other reason than that it is what old people do - whinge about things they don't understand.

    You are wrong. I get to see just how wrong on a weekly basis. Just accept that you are talking out of prejudice and move on. I certainly will be.


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    moving this closer to the original argument, i think the point should be that the way things are structured here in the US, going into a blue-collar field simply does not pay for the vast majority of folks-- assuming those jobs exist in the first place.

    that's more than half the reason why huge parts of Middle America are rotting from within. jobs don't exist and a lot of people simply don't want to move. the 1990s solution was to fling everyone at college, but it turns out that there's a lot of people whom aren't suited for college...and it caused a lot of diploma inflation. this is why i laugh at some of the various misguided Silicon Valley efforts to turn former coal miners into computer programmers. or the equally stupid Trumpian attempt to revive dying industries.

    and this is not a generational thing, we've seen this across various sectors in time.
    Last edited by astralis; 20 Apr 18, at 14:44.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  7. #742
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Are you saying that environmental damage is easily rectified? Lets just suck all that sweet greenhouse gas right in and make the temperatures drop then.
    US won't do anything until India & China cut down on emissions and we're trying to move to other sources at our own speed. End of story.

    Also will the US be denied entry into TTP? Depends on how much concessons they are wiling to give. I am reasonably certain there would be additional terms if US wants to be accommodated
    So ? they will cut a deal because there is something to gain all around

    What i'm pushing back on is this usual opposition rhetoric pattern that 'something bad (undefined so its more scary) will happen in the future because of the present administration'

    Same fear mongering nonsense in India. It's reduced since 2014 but has yet to abate in the US given your administration is still young.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Apr 18, at 14:57.

  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    You are wrong. I get to see just how wrong on a weekly basis. Just accept that you are talking out of prejudice and move on. I certainly will be.
    I am not wrong and I certainly do not share your views. The generation before this did me proud. That generation sufferred 11 September and DEMANDED that my generation lead them into war. They are the Majors and Colonels who came after my generation and they more than earned their scars, both seen and unseen. Even those who did not goto war line up in -30C weather on the Highway of Heros to welcome home the flag drapped coffins.

    You are perfectly welcome to your views but your small office view does not give you the bigger picture from corporate.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 20 Apr 18, at 15:15.

  9. #744
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Wrong. Until this generation earned the right to be arrogant, then they are just young assholes who don't know what they are doing. Your office examples serves perfectly well the differences. Your older generation got corporate knowledge how to work and they learned no matter what they do, good or bad, things will not change. So, why fight it. You got a good manager right now. What about the next?

    There is a hell of a lot of difference between Colonels and Lieutenants. I know who I listen to when in the field and it ain't a one bar.
    The thing is, at my level we don't deal with Captains. We have Privates, Sergeants, and Lts. If you are still a private or a PFC at age 50, it means you have no corporate knowledge, otherwise you would've been promoted. That's why all the older people that I personally deal with are pretty much morons and/or lazy.

    Meanwhile there are plenty of hard-working privates that want to move up to Sergeant or Lt. There are plenty of dumb-shit privates, too, but there are still plenty of good privates.

    I want those good privates to be promoted as fast as possible and be given good assignments so they can become Lts and Captains. I do NOT want bullshit like "oh, you won a Medal of Honor and single-handedly crushed the entire Covenant army, but you can't get promoted because Army regulations require you to be here 24 months to be promoted and you've only been here 23 months and 364 days. Please follow this General Custer guy instead, he's best friends with Congress which is how he got be General!"

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    moving this closer to the original argument, i think the point should be that the way things are structured here in the US, going into a blue-collar field simply does not pay for the vast majority of folks-- assuming those jobs exist in the first place.

    that's more than half the reason why huge parts of Middle America are rotting from within. jobs don't exist and a lot of people simply don't want to move. the 1990s solution was to fling everyone at college, but it turns out that there's a lot of people whom aren't suited for college...and it caused a lot of diploma inflation. this is why i laugh at some of the various misguided Silicon Valley efforts to turn former coal miners into computer programmers. or the equally stupid Trumpian attempt to revive dying industries.

    and this is not a generational thing, we've seen this across various sectors in time.
    I think people expect too much out of the blue collars. Like, if you're working as a plumber and your wife is working as an office admin, you're probably grossing $60k-$70k. That's not bad at all. It's not like you're living in abject poverty or something.

    Flinging everyone at college was indeed misguided and friggin' stupid. However, my point is that upper class families are not going to teach their kids to become plumbers, because it is pointless compared to their other options. That does not mean LOWER classes should not train their kids to become plumbers, but then you're stuck with a class system that no one feels comfortable with.


    I've got my qualms with the economy, especially with degree inflation, but lower classes getting shit is also majorly affected by their own shitty decisions. My brother decided he was going to drink himself silly and never go to classes so he failed out of college. No one told my cousin to try to Home Depot on gift cards, that was his own stupid decision, much like his stupid decision to impregnate a 15 year old, or his stupid decision to give his daughter mountain dew.

    Not that I haven't made shitty decisions, but I am pretty smart, a diploma, and some reasonably wealthy parents, so I have a lot to fall back on. My brother has no diploma and is not as smart, so does not have as much to fall back on.
    Last edited by GVChamp; 20 Apr 18, at 15:53.
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  10. #745
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    GVChamp,

    I think people expect too much out of the blue collars. Like, if you're working as a plumber and your wife is working as an office admin, you're probably grossing $60k-$70k. That's not bad at all. It's not like you're living in abject poverty or something.
    true, but on the other hand it's also a matter of expectations. a blue-collar lifestyle back in the 70s could get you all the symbols of middle-class respectability, a decent living standard, plus an expectation that your kids would probably be in a better position than you. i mean, we talk about that house with the white picket fence and a patio swing, car, two kids, one Disneyland vacation a year as that type of middle-class American Dream, right?

    considerably harder to pull off now.

    let's consider that household earning $60-70K/yr. as you say, "not bad at all". but how close is that to the edge? one bad medical issue that insurance can't/won't cover and it's almost guaranteed that whatever savings that household has is going to be wiped out. if they had little savings to begin with (which is likely given that level of income) then the next step is likely getting rid of that hard-earned house, probably at a loss.

    or on an issue less catastrophic, good luck having even ONE kid go to a STATE school without scholarship. forget the first tier schools (ie UC Berkeley, $13.5K/yr excluding living expenses), even fourth-tier schools like, say, CSU Long Beach will cost $7k/yr.

    the rage here isn't so much lower-class-- it's the middle-class or the just formerly-middle-class whom are angry that even though they generally "did things right", they're barely treading water and are probably relatively worse off than their parents.
    Last edited by astralis; 20 Apr 18, at 16:03.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  11. #746
    Senior Contributor Red Team's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I am not wrong and I certainly do not share your views. The generation before this did me proud. That generation sufferred 11 September and DEMANDED that my generation lead them into war. They are the Majors and Colonels who came after my generation and they more than earned their scars, both seen and unseen. Even those who did not goto war line up in -30C weather on the Highway of Heros to welcome home the flag drapped coffins.

    You are perfectly welcome to your views but your small office view does not give you the bigger picture from corporate.
    Colonel,

    My same generation is the one that continues to fight and die in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria (and now apparently schools)---and may end up doing so for the foreseeable future. It is also the one that will have to endure virtually none of the benefits of recent generations past like decent wages, affordable rent, and social security. (I don't even know what the word retirement means!) It is the one expected to pioneer an unprecedentedly interconnected cyberworld, and fight a sophisticated war of information making past cases of yellow journalism/propaganda look like grade school gossip.

    We were told by our elders anything but a college track made us losers, and then lambasted for being financially irresponsible when it turned out college wasn't for all of us. Our elders view of what was right for us was wrong, and they blame us for not knowing better. Could you blame us for being a little bitter and cynical?

    I've no doubt past generations have had it harder than us, it's hard for me to even fathom what the immigrants of the 1900s, or the depressionites of the late 20s and 30s went through to survive. But past generational struggles don't invalidate our own.
    Last edited by Red Team; 20 Apr 18, at 16:20.
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  12. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    The thing is, at my level we don't deal with Captains. We have Privates, Sergeants, and Lts. If you are still a private or a PFC at age 50, it means you have no corporate knowledge, otherwise you would've been promoted. That's why all the older people that I personally deal with are pretty much morons and/or lazy.
    It also could mean that you're good at your job and don't want anymore.

    It used to be no shame to retire as a Corporal (lower than Sergeant) but in this day and age, it's impossible to retire on a Corporal pension. Corporals are section leaders, 12 men. That means that they're very good at leading and keeping 12 men alive. No shame at staying there. However, I do understand your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    Meanwhile there are plenty of hard-working privates that want to move up to Sergeant or Lt. There are plenty of dumb-shit privates, too, but there are still plenty of good privates.

    I want those good privates to be promoted as fast as possible and be given good assignments so they can become Lts and Captains. I do NOT want bullshit like "oh, you won a Medal of Honor and single-handedly crushed the entire Covenant army, but you can't get promoted because Army regulations require you to be here 24 months to be promoted and you've only been here 23 months and 364 days. Please follow this General Custer guy instead, he's best friends with Congress which is how he got be General!"
    For whatever reason, that's the corporate culture at where you are. The smart ones adapt. The dumb ones don't. You're perfectly correct to jump ship to further your career. However, you're also not as indespensible as you think as the company would survive without you.

    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    My brother decided he was going to drink himself silly and never go to classes so he failed out of college. No one told my cousin to try to Home Depot on gift cards, that was his own stupid decision, much like his stupid decision to impregnate a 15 year old, or his stupid decision to give his daughter mountain dew.
    That's the point. Fine college is not for them but that does not mean they cannot put food on the table or get a roof over their heads or drive that $80K SUV.

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Sorry, but this is just devolving into a pointless rant and it really isn't worth the waste of my time.

    Young people aren't lazy & they aren't arrogant. They are just trying to make their way the same as everyone else. They are no better or worse than anyone else. Unfortunately some older people feel the need to shit on them for on other reason than that it is what old people do - whinge about things they don't understand.

    You are wrong. I get to see just how wrong on a weekly basis. Just accept that you are talking out of prejudice and move on. I certainly will be.
    I sometimes have found myself, as a Baby Boomer, making comments about those far younger than me namely 18-30. Then I catch myself and tell myself to remember. I remember how when I was a young Baby Boomer we were always being dumped on by older generations. With Vietnam in play those divisions between generations were magnified greatly. At that point I shut my mouth because even though they do things differently (technology wise) they are hard workers just like my generation with some jokers thrown in as always.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I am not wrong and I certainly do not share your views. The generation before this did me proud. That generation sufferred 11 September and DEMANDED that my generation lead them into war. They are the Majors and Colonels who came after my generation and they more than earned their scars, both seen and unseen. Even those who did not goto war line up in -30C weather on the Highway of Heros to welcome home the flag drapped coffins.

    You are perfectly welcome to your views but your small office view does not give you the bigger picture from corporate.
    In Ukraine the younger generation fights in -30C.

  15. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    My same generation is the one that continues to fight and die in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria (and now apparently schools)---and may end up doing so for the foreseeable future.
    How about showing some common decency and respect?

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/garysto.../#386943026416

    And this was not an isolated incident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Team View Post
    We were told by our elders anything but a college track made us losers, and then lambasted for being financially irresponsible when it turned out college wasn't for all of us. Our elders view of what was right for us was wrong, and they blame us for not knowing better. Could you blame us for being a little bitter and cynical?

    I've no doubt past generations have had it harder than us, it's hard for me to even fathom what the immigrants of the 1900s, or the depressionites of the late 20s and 30s went through to survive. But past generational struggles don't invalidate our own.
    Maybe the military influence drilled this early into me but life sucks. Every LT's first dress down is inevitably "Tough shit, deal with it."

    I'm at an age where I'm going to a lot more funerals than I do weddings. No matter how much I do things different nor how much I want things different, a hell of a lot more funerals will be in my future. There is nothing to do but deal with it.

    The generation before you? They've got their lives turned upside down by 11 September. Not only the family of those who went to war but those who stayed at home as well. The economic disruption from that one event cannot be dismissed. People lost their jobs. You're in NY, I bet you can still see the scars but that generation? Not only did they dealt with it, they demanded my generation to lead them into hell itself to get those fucks. Not only in the US but elsewhere in the entire West. No one complained about the unfaireness of life. They dealt with it with the most precise brutality the world has ever seen.

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