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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    Mentally: no cares on either one. I vote for a president to get things done. More power to him if he's getting some fun with porn stars and playmates.

    Edit: actually I take it back. I'm amused and entertained. It's a value added for me. :D
    If Trump managed to confine his immorality to merely raw-dogging porn stars and the like, I could almost ignore that. It certainly bespeaks to a character bereft of conscience, but hey that's politicians in general.

    As for getting things done, other than dismantling Obama's EO's and obsessing over Obama, Trump has done very little. (Drastically increasing the deficit was pretty cute, I'll admit though.)
    But, I guess that's enough for people who loathed Obama. I didn't much care for him myself, after a year in office you'd think Trump could find something better to do.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  2. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    I'd say it's more like "Why waste bandwidth on beating a dead horse".

    We know full well what kind of character that man possesses (rotting corpses have more) and pointing out his imbroglios here on the WAB is simultaneously bouncing the rubble and beneath us.

    We'll leave the outrage for the usual liberal leftist pages on Facebook (Occupy Democrats, for starters) to scream and whine about. It's a full time job and we have better things to do.

    There's certainly a very small minority of Trump supporters here, which I find extremely heartening, given the generally right/center-right makeup of the board.


    Very, very true.

    It's staggering really, what Trump supporters are willing to tolerate from that man and yet remain silent.
    Pretty obvious it's because Trump is saying and doing the things that they can't say out loud in polite company...but Trump can.

    He's validating their bitter rage over the prior 8 years of Obama. How can they criticize that?
    Possibly the pot calling the kettle black scenario that pervades the human landscape.

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  3. #648
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    Full article: http://time.com/5241044/james-comey-interview-abc/
    James Comey: Donald Trump Is 'Morally Unfit to Be President' and 'Possibly' Obstructed Justice

    Fired FBI Director James Comey believes President Donald Trump “possibly” committed obstruction of justice by asking him to “let go” of the investigation into his former National Security Adviser Mike Flynn.

    Comey blasted Trump in no uncertain terms in an exclusive interview with ABC News Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos Sunday, calling him “morally unfit to be president.”

    “I think he’s morally unfit to be president. A person who sees moral equivalence in Charlottesville, who talks about and treats women like they’re pieces of meat, who lies constantly about matters big and small and insists the American people believe it, that person’s not fit to be president of the United States, on moral grounds,” he said.

    Comey claims that Trump asked him privately to end the FBI investigation of Flynn’s contacts with Russia.

    Stephanopoulos asked Comey: “With that direction, was President Trump obstructing justice?”

    “Possibly. I mean, it’s certainly some evidence of obstruction of justice. It would depend and – and I’m just a witness in this case, not the investigator or prosecutor, it would depend upon other things that reflected on his intent,” said Comey.

    Trump denies that conversation every took place. Flynn later pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI.

    Comey, who served under President George W. Bush and President Barack Obama before Trump, painted himself as the guardian of the FBI’s independence as he tried to explain the controversial decisions that have earned him bitter scorn from both Hillary Clinton and Trump.

    Comey’s highly anticipated book, A Higher Loyalty, does not come out until Tuesday – but it has already risen to No. 4 on the list of best-sellers for 2018.
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  4. #649
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Very, very true.

    It's staggering really, what Trump supporters are willing to tolerate from that man and yet remain silent.
    Pretty obvious it's because Trump is saying and doing the things that they can't say out loud in polite company...but Trump can.

    He's validating their bitter rage over the prior 8 years of Obama. How can they criticize that?
    He is shameless and cannot be embarrassed. The opposition will have to find better sticks to beat him up with

    Why does the base put up with it. Simple. At the end of the day they're voting with their wallets. He's their best chance for a better life. They don't believe what is said about him because there has been a concerted campaign to vilify him as candidate and everyday he remains as president. You don't have to be in his base to recognise it. Right now American media is more toxic than Pak media. It's very strange when you have to second guess what Americans say about their country.

    Way i judge this guy is what he says, does and achieves. So far he's been very determined to do what he promised for better or worse. Am still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Checks and balances will take care of the fringe tendencies. We hope.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Apr 18, at 10:08.

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Why does the base put up with it. Simple. At the end of the day they're voting with their wallets. He's their best chance for a better life.
    Which is like believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. They believe the lie that Trump is a "great businessman". He's nothing of the sort. He's a snake oil salesman. A huckster. A shyster.
    It's easy to be "successful" when you don't pay your vendors and contractors. Or skimp on things like sprinkler systems in your buildings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    They don't believe what is said about him because there has been a concerted campaign to vilify him as candidate and everyday he remains as president. You don't have to be in his base to recognise it. Right now American media is more toxic than Pak media. It's very strange when you have to second guess what Americans say about their country.
    You are so right. I thought things were vicious back when Clinton was in office. That was nothing. I don't even recognize my country sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Way i judge this guy is what he says, does and achieves
    Same here. I didn't think I'd be impressed before he took office and that opinion hasn't changed one iota since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So far he's been very determined to do what he promised for better or worse. Am still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
    Determined, no doubt. If he's anything, he's determined. The problem is he doesn't know diddly-shit about government or how it works.

    He should be scoring legislative success after success. "Winning", as he puts it. I'm still waiting for the winning.

    This is a man who didn't want to be President in the first place, never expected to win, didn't know a thing about the Office, is not willing to put in the time and effort to govern and none of that has changed a bit since the day he announced his intention to run.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    much like the entire idea of impeachment, this discussion of legality has little meaning because removing or keeping Mueller is wholly a political decision.
    And the political will to carry out this investigation arises from concerns over Russian tampering in the election and specifically collusion with Americans. The legal mandate matters, too, and I am of the opinion that Mueller is probably legally in the right. That doesn't matter. The US government has taken all sorts of legal actions which are still against our values. The biggest threat to Americans has never been Donald Trump, it's run-of-the-mill politicians and career bureaucrats convincing us to surrender our rights by convincing us we live in a state of perpetual danger.

    I'm way more terrified of Mueller and Trump. He's a government prosecutor. The ENTIRE legal system of the US is built speficially on the idea that guys like Mueller are the absolute most dangerous agents of the government, and will fuck you over the second they get. That's why you get no unreasonable search and seizure, jury trials, and presumption of innocence.

    I'm definitely not a Trump supporter, but when it comes to issues of government overreach, I'm usually with the civil libertarians. Just because the apparatus is directed at Trump's team in this particular case does not change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Could you use your deep insight to assess Ken Starr's performance back in the late 1990s?
    Thanks.
    Aren't most of us in agreement than the Special Counsel against Clinton was a national embarrassment?

    Whether you like it or not, Mueller is going to be on the job until the truth is uncovered.
    What is this "truth" you speak of?
    Last edited by GVChamp; 16 Apr 18, at 15:59.
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  7. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    What is this "truth" you speak of?
    Whatever illegal activities that Trump and his crew have to hide, for whatever reason, for whatever crime.

    Or, if you prefer:

    • Any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump
    • Any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
    • Any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. 600.4(a). [including perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses]
    • Any federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters.


    So far we've got half a dozen hides nailed to the barn door and with the treasure trove of information so graciously provided by Michael Cohen, there's going to be plenty more.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  8. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post


    Aren't most of us in agreement than the Special Counsel against Clinton was a national embarrassment?
    Among so-called conservatives, the height of hypocrisy would be to criticize Mueller for over-reaching his remit without having loudly and in great detail done the same about Ken Starr for the past 20 years. Second on that podium of shame would be to claim GOPer credentials while simultaneously supporting the current POTUS. Third would be to use the term "Republican fiscal conservative" without convulsing on the floor in uncontrollable laughter.
    Trust me?
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  9. #654
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Which is like believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. They believe the lie that Trump is a "great businessman". He's nothing of the sort. He's a snake oil salesman. A huckster. A shyster.
    It's easy to be "successful" when you don't pay your vendors and contractors. Or skimp on things like sprinkler systems in your buildings.
    He's squeezing the Chinese. If you believe they stacked the deck unfairly then so does he and he's trying to do something about it. This has spinoffs for everybody

    My country has given them half a trillion in trade within the last decade, yours does it annually. You really think there is no scope for some readjusting there ?

    it's not only with the Chinese its with the entire world.

    Santa Claus very much

    You are so right. I thought things were vicious back when Clinton was in office. That was nothing. I don't even recognize my country sometimes.
    Same thing with Clinton. He wasn't impeached neither will Trump

    Same here. I didn't think I'd be impressed before he took office and that opinion hasn't changed one iota since then.

    He should be scoring legislative success after success. "Winning", as he puts it. I'm still waiting for the winning.
    Wait and see, the second year has just started. Tell me after his term ended

    Determined, no doubt. If he's anything, he's determined. The problem is he doesn't know diddly-shit about government or how it works.
    Your people have had it with the establishment. Gunnut said so over a year before the elections. No more fork tongued establishment types. I didn't believe it at the time thinking of course they would vote in some one with experience.

    This is a man who didn't want to be President in the first place, never expected to win, didn't know a thing about the Office, is not willing to put in the time and effort to govern and none of that has changed a bit since the day he announced his intention to run.
    So say the advisors who have lost favour. The same people he blames for the present mess. How's that for going after vested interests. Just not what we expected
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Apr 18, at 22:54.

  10. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    He's squeezing the Chinese. If you believe they stacked the deck unfairly then so does he and he's trying to do something about it. This has spinoffs for everybody

    My country has given them half a trillion in trade within the last decade, yours does it annually. You really think there is no scope for some readjusting there ?

    it's not only with the Chinese its with the entire world.
    No I don't really think that. Where did I ever give any indication of that? Of course there's scope for readjustment there. Massive readjustment.
    What I don't think is that Donald Trump is the man for the job because what he's used to doing is, not cutting deals, but petulantly demanding everything and offering crumbs in return.
    His business dealings are replete with this attitude of "F--k everybody else and f--k anybody who's got a problem with that". Admittedly, that's exactly what a good portion of Americans want wholeheartedly.

    But you can't conduct international affairs that way. Not for long. And not without consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Same thing with Clinton. He wasn't impeached neither will Trump
    I don't really equate the two. Clinton, for all his faults, knew how and when to shut the f--k up.
    Donald Trump is incapable of doing so, even when it incriminates the living shit out of himself.
    Like I told zraver, if he's ever put on the stand or even merely interviewed, he's so f--ked. It'll look something like this

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Wait and see, the second year has just started. Tell me after his term ended
    I'll grant you that. It's going to take a couple more years for people to see just what kind of person (and I use that word loosely) they've elected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Your people have had it with the establishment.
    Unquestionably! Count me at the top of that list!

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Gunnut said so over a year before the elections. No more fork tongued establishment types. I didn't believe it at the time thinking of course they would vote in some one with experience.
    But that's exactly the problem: They simply don't come more fork-tongued than Donald Trump! This man lies with the same amount of thought that people give to breathing and he surrounds himself with people of the exact same manner.

    He promised to "drain the swamp" and then loaded it up with the worst cast of reptiles in the country.

    The 2016 election was the greatest con job in my lifetime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So say the advisors who have lost favour.
    No, so say I. You could see the look on his face during Election Night. This was not a man overjoyed at his underdog win. This was a man frozen with shock.

    His actions in office have been desultory and half-hearted. Every leak coming out of the White House says he spends his time glued to Fox News and Tweeting. He could be on overdrive as President. He's not.

    He only comes back to life when he's out at political rallies...apparently forgetting that he doesn't need to campaign anymore.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  11. #656
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Double Edge,

    If your country gave China a half trillion dollars in the past decade, it should have got something in exchange. Cars, motorbikes, refrigerators . . . something. If it didn't, I'd recommend a good trade lawyer.

    Oh, and Mr Clinton was impeached, which was a travesty. He just wasn't convicted.
    Trust me?
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  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    You know, we ought to be more like the French when it comes to this kind of stuff, where it's seen as perfectly normal to have a paramour, mistress, etc. Virtually everybody in the US has affairs and indiscretions, so what, it's human nature. Too many Americans have a tendency to rationalize and justify their behavior when they do it themselves, but are hypocritical, and get outraged and judgmental when someone else does it.......
    The deafening silence on WAB about Trump's imbroglios, I take it as more or less that everybody's thinking the same thing, even if they're not as brazen as me, a bachelor for life, to just come out and say it.
    The problem is (as far as it matters) that Trump won his candidacy in the name of a right wing conservative party that trumpets (me bad) 'family values' as being at the core of what they represent. And Trump is to family values what a butcher shop is to a vegan restaurant.

    And as far as WAB members go I don't think his failure to adhere to such values has been met with silence because of any grudging admiration or even closet acceptance that such things happen. No, I think it is simply the case that most members regard the lack of such values as irrelevant.

    I suspect most WABERs, regardless of whether they are US citizens or not haven't commented on Trumps personal behavior because they do not regard a Presidents marital status or their involvement in (consensual) bedroom antics as pertinent to the role. As a group we are much more concerned about a President's economic and foreign policies, the people he/she recruits for key positions and the manner in which they conduct themselves in office than we are about their personal lives.

    Being President of the United States is a job, albeit a very important job and forum members seem to want the most qualified person possible in the role. They may disagree about who that person is but not about the metrics against which a President's performance is measured.

    And IMO Trump seems to be failing on most metrics, most of the time - and that wouldn't change even if he was monogamous.
    Last edited by Monash; 18 Apr 18, at 05:38.
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  13. #658
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    IMO Trump seems to be failing on most metrics, most of the time - and that wouldn't change even if he was monogamous.
    I agree.
    What I don't want to see is the Bills winning a Super Bowl. As long as I'm alive that doesn't happen.

  14. #659
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    No I don't really think that. Where did I ever give any indication of that? Of course there's scope for readjustment there. Massive readjustment.
    What I don't think is that Donald Trump is the man for the job because what he's used to doing is, not cutting deals, but petulantly demanding everything and offering crumbs in return.
    His business dealings are replete with this attitude of "F--k everybody else and f--k anybody who's got a problem with that". Admittedly, that's exactly what a good portion of Americans want wholeheartedly.

    But you can't conduct international affairs that way. Not for long. And not without consequences.
    A year in now what have the consequences been ? or is it too early to say.

    If one goes by all the withering commentary you'd be amazed you still still have a working govt a year later.

    So yeah, i'm picky with the negative stuff of which there seems to be no shortage off. Cannot get anyone's attention unless you tell them the country is going to hell and fast. Media's been doing this for decades now.

    I thought the NATO aliance was crumbling and then this tripartite attack takes place. Seems allies are willing to adjust. Macron didn't get along with Trump i thought but it appears it was Macron that encouraged Trump to attack Syria.

    I don't really equate the two. Clinton, for all his faults, knew how and when to shut the f--k up.
    Donald Trump is incapable of doing so, even when it incriminates the living shit out of himself.
    Like I told zraver, if he's ever put on the stand or even merely interviewed, he's so f--ked. It'll look something like this
    Yes, doesn't know when to shut up almost like he cannot lie. An endearing aspect as far as his electorate is concerned. So long as the people like him he's untouchable despite his flaws.

    By comparing with Clinton i mean the impression created at the time was having an affair with an intern was a threat to national security because who knows what secrets might be shared. The same level of ridiculous exaggeration.


    I'll grant you that. It's going to take a couple more years for people to see just what kind of person (and I use that word loosely) they've elected.
    If the economy recovers he might get another term. Think back to Bush, media thought he was rubbish as well. The Bush administration was being selective with the media and that is if they spoke to the media. Not enough voters agreed

    Unquestionably! Count me at the top of that list!

    But that's exactly the problem: They simply don't come more fork-tongued than Donald Trump! This man lies with the same amount of thought that people give to breathing and he surrounds himself with people of the exact same manner.
    Is he lying or is he just exaggerating his successes.

    He promised to "drain the swamp" and then loaded it up with the worst cast of reptiles in the country.

    The 2016 election was the greatest con job in my lifetime.
    Who are these reptiles you speak of ?

    Positions are vacant still, do people want to work for this administration or are they afraid they'd never live it off after. Some do, some are his picks. But you know he dumps people whenever he wants. So its a tricky proposition.

    Matis was fired as CENTCOM commander by Obama for being a war monger. Trump made him SecDef. He speaks the softest of those in the cabinet.


    No, so say I. You could see the look on his face during Election Night. This was not a man overjoyed at his underdog win. This was a man frozen with shock.

    His actions in office have been desultory and half-hearted. Every leak coming out of the White House says he spends his time glued to Fox News and Tweeting. He could be on overdrive as President. He's not.

    He only comes back to life when he's out at political rallies...apparently forgetting that he doesn't need to campaign anymore.
    heh, this is common with some pols. They forget to stop campaigning when they come into office. It will happen eventually and when it does the next elections will be up.

    Trump's a transitionary character. A symptom of a problem. The problem is the west is uneasy with itself and its place in the world. There will be more Trump like characters voted into office i expect.

  15. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    A year in now what have the consequences been ? or is it too early to say.
    Too early to say but there have been some very poisonous seeds sown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    If one goes by all the withering commentary you'd be amazed you still still have a working govt a year later.
    So yeah, i'm picky with the negative stuff of which there seems to be no shortage off. Cannot get anyone's attention unless you tell them the country is going to hell and fast. Media's been doing this for decades now.
    You're absolutely right. The talking heads and nattering nabobs of negativism in the mainstream media have to keep up that withering commentary. It's what generates ratings.

    Speaking of having a working government, I'm rather shocked that an actual budget was passed and I note with no small amount of smirking that Trump hated it...but signed it anyway.
    I wonder who put a gun to his head and assured him that either his brains or his signature would be on the budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I thought the NATO aliance was crumbling and then this tripartite attack takes place. Seems allies are willing to adjust. Macron didn't get along with Trump i thought but it appears it was Macron that encouraged Trump to attack Syria.
    I never really got the impression that NATO was crumbling. Certainly having some serious problems though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Yes, doesn't know when to shut up almost like he cannot lie. An endearing aspect as far as his electorate is concerned. So long as the people like him he's untouchable despite his flaws
    That's what causes me no small amount of bewilderment and frustration: Some very good friends of mine are quite happy to overlook literally everything about him...because they like his policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    By comparing with Clinton i mean the impression created at the time was having an affair with an intern was a threat to national security because who knows what secrets might be shared. The same level of ridiculous exaggeration.
    I don't recall that being a concern at the time, it was more that he lied through his teeth under oath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    If the economy recovers he might get another term. Think back to Bush, media thought he was rubbish as well. The Bush administration was being selective with the media and that is if they spoke to the media. Not enough voters agreed
    Agreed, if the economy stays the same, he'll have a chance. The problem is, the middle-of-the-road voters that decided to take a chance on him might not be so solicitous this time around, now that they've seen him off the stump and in the Office.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Is he lying or is he just exaggerating his successes.
    BOTH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Who are these reptiles you speak of ?
    Posted an article below, but you can easily add to it:

    Betsy DeVos - Secretary of Education (billionaire oxygen thief that doesn't know jack shit about education)
    Rick Perry - Secretary of Energy (35 year career politician that wants to boost coal use in the national electrical grid)
    Ben Carson - Secretary of Housing and Urban Development (Not a swamp reptile but a supposedly brilliant neurosurgeon who claimed on his first day in office "the human brain is incapable of forgetting and could be electrically stimulated into perfect recall." Wrong Wrong WRONG Dr. Carson)

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Positions are vacant still, do people want to work for this administration or are they afraid they'd never live it off after. Some do, some are his picks. But you know he dumps people whenever he wants. So its a tricky proposition.
    Exactly what you said, but also a complete lack of interest on Trump's part. Remember how I said he never wanted the office? This is yet another symptom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Matis was fired as CENTCOM commander by Obama for being a war monger. Trump made him SecDef. He speaks the softest of those in the cabinet.
    General Mattis was (and is) a standout grand slam pick for the Administration. I daresay he's the finest SecDef in many many decades. I would not be surprised if he turns out to be the finest SecDef in US history. Of course, a great deal of his appeal to Trump was Trump's love of being surrounded by generals.

    Mattis being fired by Obama was yet another example of Obama's ignorance in military matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    heh, this is common with some pols. They forget to stop campaigning when they come into office. It will happen eventually and when it does the next elections will be up.
    Very true. But with Trump, as with most everything else, the effect is amplified to ridiculous proportions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Trump's a transitionary character. A symptom of a problem. The problem is the west is uneasy with itself and its place in the world. There will be more Trump like characters voted into office i expect.
    Yes I very much agree.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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