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  • Originally posted by astralis View Post
    laugh away...a district that went 20+ for Trump going Dem.

    there's roughly 115 Republican House seats within that margin.
    Lamb and Doug Jones are not reflective of the Sanders Warren branch o' the Democratic Party. Jones voted with the Republicans on the budget. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...re/doug-jones/

    Being a pragmatist I think representatives voting on merit and not ideology is a good thing.

    Comment


    • dazed,

      Lamb and Doug Jones are not reflective of the Sanders Warren branch o' the Democratic Party. Jones voted with the Republicans on the budget.
      OTOH they're hardly republicans, either.

      actually, Lamb is rather closer to the Sanders branch than you'd think. he's a Pennsylvania Dem so he has to be tight with unions. that's very different from the formerly Third Way/DNC types that represent the other branch of the Dems.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

      Comment


      • wooglin,

        And the party that lost 1000 or so seats during the Obama era has changed how? Trump is very unpopular = good for dems, but then what? Until they come to grips with why they got decimated despite having a very popular president it's just not going to last, and I don't see that happening any time soon. It's still the same bullshit and excuses.
        it's politics, "lasting" has little meaning. recall that in 2006 and 2008 Republicans were decimated and Dems had considerably stronger control of Congress than Republicans have now.

        so yes, plenty of reasons why Dems got decimated when they did, but there's also plenty of reasons why Republicans are getting decimated now as well. there's never a one-size fits all answer.

        in this case with Trump there, yeah, Dems are going to crawl over broken glass to vote. i'm sure with the next Dem President and Dem-controlled Congress there will be an opposite reaction, but then again DJT has a supreme talent for antagonizing his opponents...and come to think of it, his allies as well.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wooglin View Post
          and 2016 is still directly applicable to going into the 2018 election year...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
            dazed,



            OTOH they're hardly republicans, either.

            actually, Lamb is rather closer to the Sanders branch than you'd think. he's a Pennsylvania Dem so he has to be tight with unions. that's very different from the formerly Third Way/DNC types that represent the other branch of the Dems.
            I think it's great if the representative votes on the issue and not the party line. As for Lamb from Rolling Stone (I know) Lamb opposes a ban on assault weapons, such as the AR-15 he was shown firing in one of his campaign ads. He supports the president's trade policies, too including the new tariffs. He pooh-poohs single-payer healthcare. He thinks Pelosi should go

            Comment


            • Originally posted by astralis View Post
              wooglin,



              it's politics, "lasting" has little meaning. recall that in 2006 and 2008 Republicans were decimated and Dems had considerably stronger control of Congress than Republicans have now.

              so yes, plenty of reasons why Dems got decimated when they did, but there's also plenty of reasons why Republicans are getting decimated now as well. there's never a one-size fits all answer.

              in this case with Trump there, yeah, Dems are going to crawl over broken glass to vote. i'm sure with the next Dem President and Dem-controlled Congress there will be an opposite reaction, but then again DJT has a supreme talent for antagonizing his opponents...and come to think of it, his allies as well.
              We seem to have different ideas of what decimation means, so lets be specific. During the GWB years repubs lost 324 seats nationally. During the Obama years the dems lost 968 seats nationally. You want to pretend these numbers are comparable... well thanks for highlighting my point then. Until you guys deal with why you got DECIMATED and can run on something more than "we're not Trump" then I wouldn't get too comfortable with short term gains.

              Comment


              • wooglin,

                Until you guys deal with why you got DECIMATED and can run on something more than "we're not Trump" then I wouldn't get too comfortable with short term gains.
                i'm really not sure how you differentiate between "short term" and "long term" gains in politics, and why you think that Dems aren't running on something more than 'we're not Trump'.

                i don't think that's how Doug Jones won Alabama, for instance.

                in any case, i'll take short-term gains for now. i think it's pretty clear now that 2018 will be a slaughterhouse for the GOP. 2020 probably too, because the probability is against the bullish economy holding out that long. (probably shorter, if Trump's trade wars get going.)

                long-term, i'm looking forward to that minority-majority nation and the Millennial 2:1 Dem-GOP lean to resolve that problem.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • Originally posted by astralis View Post

                  long-term, i'm looking forward to that minority-majority nation and the Millennial 2:1 Dem-GOP lean to resolve that problem.
                  No doubt you are. Again, thanks for making my point. There's just still too many white people. That's the real problem for democrats, huh? I couldn't have made my point any better than you just did. Thanks.

                  Comment


                  • Again, thanks for making my point. There's just still too many white people. That's the real problem for democrats, huh? I couldn't have made my point any better than you just did. Thanks.
                    you don't -have- a point. you compare two short-term political cycles and use that as a basis to say that Dems have a long-term problem.

                    MY observation is that minorities and young people have been trending more and more Dem over the last generation and you decide to simplify it as "dems think there's just still too many white people". cool story bro.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      you don't -have- a point. you compare two short-term political cycles and use that as a basis to say that Dems have a long-term problem.

                      MY observation is that minorities and young people have been trending more and more Dem over the last generation and you decide to simplify it as "dems think there's just still too many white people". cool story bro.
                      Yep. Spin away.

                      I think maybe your being the simple one here. You guys shit all over middle America, lost more seats under Obama than anyone since WWII, lost the Presidency to a bumbling fool, and you don't think maybe there's an issue? Nah...according to you you just need more minorities and ignorant kids to solve the "problem" long term. Yeah. Cool story bro.

                      Comment


                      • You guys shit all over middle America, lost more seats under Obama than anyone since WWII, lost the Presidency to a bumbling fool, and you don't think maybe there's an issue?
                        i think the recent elections have shown that while there may be an issue, Trump hatred goes pretty far in papering over it. that's a fair statement for both sides. GOP sure has plenty of issues, but HRC hatred went pretty far in papering over it. Dem long-term issues or no, i'm looking forward pretty eagerly to the 2018 midterms, are you?

                        Nah...according to you you just need more minorities and ignorant kids to solve the "problem" long term.
                        would be more problematic if the GOP actually attempted to contest these demographics, but seeing as how they're doing their best to drive 'em away, that's a perfectly legitimate aspiration.

                        i mean, your idea of resolving the Dem long-term problem boils down to, "Dems would win more if they were more like the GOP", yes?
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • Long-term generational changes shift the median voter, but the parties themselves shift in response to the median voter. It's not like the coming shift is going to lead to a bunch of Al Gores getting elected, anymore than the (D) shift in the New Deal Era led to the Bourbon Democrats taking over.

                          Banking on Millennial/Minority votes is short-sighted, IMO. The actual policies and ideologies coming out of that movement are horrifying for anyone who likes the neo-liberal consensus of the last 40 years. There are a chunk of (D) neo-liberals that for some reason think they can turn this to bolstering their OWN position, but they're playing the Hindenburg game. Sort of like the GOP thinking they could harness the Tea Party wave, and seeing how much of a disaster has been for them to maintain party discipline ever since.

                          It's always fun to look through Reddit to get a look at what some of these Millennials think. Last time they talked about Teddy Roosevelt, they were praising him because he attacked rich people, but took away some points because he was racist. That's basically the limit of their knowledge and the extent of their ideology: eat the rich, be Woke. That, to them, is politics, throughout ALL history.
                          Last edited by GVChamp; 15 Mar 18,, 20:08.
                          "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                          Comment


                          • GVChamp,

                            Long-term generational changes shift the median voter, but the parties themselves shift in response to the median voter. It's not like the coming shift is going to lead to a bunch of Al Gores getting elected, anymore than the (D) shift in the New Deal Era led to the Bourbon Democrats taking over.
                            yup, very true. which makes your next statement a bit puzzling:

                            The actual policies and ideologies coming out of that movement are horrifying for anyone who likes the neo-liberal consensus of the last 40 years. There are a chunk of (D) neo-liberals that for some reason think they can turn this to bolstering their OWN position, but they're playing the Hindenburg game. Sort of like the GOP thinking they could harness the Tea Party wave, and seeing how much of a disaster has been for them to maintain party discipline ever since.
                            i've heard you say this, but which standard-bearers and policies are "horrific" specifically? IE, even Sanders represents a synthesis of a LBJ-era Dem and a Clintonian Dem. same with people like Warren. none of their positions are exactly Jacobin territory here. and they're the most lefty of the whole bunch.

                            as far as i can tell your average millennial/minority voter have led the Democratic Party leftwards, but you're talking about several steps left and not a giant jump. moreover, most of it is cultural vice economic. gay marriage, BLM, etc.

                            IE when have you seen the equivalent of a Tea Party guy talking about repeal of the 17th amendment, rail against the Fed, or talk about death panels?
                            Last edited by astralis; 15 Mar 18,, 20:18.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • It's always fun to look through Reddit to get a look at what some of these Millennials think. Last time they talked about Teddy Roosevelt, they were praising him because he attacked rich people, but took away some points because he was racist. That's basically the limit of their knowledge and the extent of their ideology: eat the rich, be Woke. That, to them, is politics, throughout ALL history.
                              well, yeah, if you want to dig through the Internet to find your nutty guys that's not hard to do. there's going to be lefty idiots on PuffPo just as i can find right idiots on The Blaze or whatever.

                              but given our representative republic, who are the Dem front runners? again, Sanders and Warren are for sure lefty but they're not outright "f*cking morons", to quote our recently let-go SECSTATE.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                              Comment


                              • Sanders and Warren are basically both morons. I don't want either one closer to the White House than I want Trump. I might trust them slightly more because I think there is less of a chance that they will cause a nuclear war. Maybe they aren't fucking morons, but they are pretty close to regular morons.

                                That's not partisan, I have no particular concern about the competence of HRC, or of Schumer or Durbin.

                                I'd say wait 10 or 20 years to see the final results, since we're waiting for a long-term change. Both Sanders and Warren will likely be dead by the time the Democrats dream of permanent majority finally comes around.
                                Last edited by GVChamp; 15 Mar 18,, 21:04.
                                "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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