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Thread: 2018 American Political Scene

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    there were numerous public hearings, and Obama deliberately took a hands-off approach because he was DESPERATE for even a fig leaf of bipartisan support. the end result was that the GOP got multiple concessions to the ACA, pocketed them, and then refused to budge at all.
    And he still had to lie through his teeth, repeatedly, before AND after it was signed into law, to get it past the American public.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    And he still had to lie through his teeth, repeatedly, before AND after it was signed into law, to get it past the American public.
    sucked back in to stuff I was gonna stay out of.....

    not exactly on topic to the conversation, but related I guess

    wasn't one part of Obummercare the fact that the penalties kicked in year after year, so the full cost and hit to the purse wasn't felt until year 8... coincidently enough when he was leaving office. My memory might be a bit foggy, but it rings a bunch of bells...

    and isn't that one of the gripes on the tax plan, savings now, but the further out it goes, the less savings people will be seeing?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfng3569 View Post
    sucked back in to stuff I was gonna stay out of.....

    not exactly on topic to the conversation, but related I guess

    wasn't one part of Obummercare the fact that the penalties kicked in year after year, so the full cost and hit to the purse wasn't felt until year 8... coincidently enough when he was leaving office. My memory might be a bit foggy, but it rings a bunch of bells...

    and isn't that one of the gripes on the tax plan, savings now, but the further out it goes, the less savings people will be seeing?
    Whatever happened, it was the GOP's fault. If only they'd just OBEYED!
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  4. #34
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    agreed, there was certainly that backlash when things didn't materialize the way it did.

    not surprised, though, because that was part of -selling- the bill. that's pretty much your standard politician exaggeration/lying, like Trump saying that he would be losing big from this tax law.

    what makes the tax law qualitatively different in terms of deception is that it was -designed- as a regular budget reconciliation-- and sold with the dual and completely contradictory understanding that the tax breaks for the middle-class would expire in 2025 (for the purposes of the reconciliation) and that those tax breaks would not expire at all because that was too politically unpopular (for the purposes of selling the bill).

    this is a dangerous river to cross because by legislating (vs selling) deceptively and off-loading the costs to the future, this will set a precedent for both parties to write their deceptions into the bills themselves. and seeing as how Democrats are the party of activist government, it's pretty obvious that this is not something that will favor the Republicans in the long run.

    just imagine the Dems trying to pass universal healthcare by just assuming all costs will be borne by the 1%, only that will start 20 years in the future; then kick in dynamic scoring on how universal healthcare will suddenly boost the economy because employers no longer need to directly pay for insurance costs.
    Last edited by astralis; 17 Jan 18, at 19:21.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #35
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    bfng,

    wasn't one part of Obummercare the fact that the penalties kicked in year after year, so the full cost and hit to the purse wasn't felt until year 8... coincidently enough when he was leaving office. My memory might be a bit foggy, but it rings a bunch of bells...
    you're talking about the Cadillac and medical device taxes, both of which were minor parts of the revenue-raisers for the ACA. IIRC the delays weren't baked into the initial bill; they were instituted first on bipartisan basis in 2015 as no one likes to pay more taxes, and now the GOP is proposing to delay it further:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1E62ZF
    Last edited by astralis; 17 Jan 18, at 19:38.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...cognitive-test


    President Trump on Wednesday touted his score on a cognitive test, suggesting he scored higher than his predecessors.

    In an interview with Reuters, he blamed former Presidents Obama, George W. Bush and Clinton for failing to solve the nuclear threat from North Korea.

    “I guess they all realized they were going to have to leave it to a president that scored the highest on tests,” Trump said in the interview.

    On Tuesday, Navy Rear Adm. Dr. Ronny Jackson, the White House physician, briefed reporters on the results, saying that Trump is in "excellent" health and is mentally fit.

    Jackson said that at Trump's insistence he administered a cognitive test as well. The doctor said Trump performed well and that there was "no indication" that Trump had any cognitive issues.

    Jackson went on to dismiss scrutiny over the president's mental state as "tabloid psychiatry."

    "People shouldn't be making those kind of assessments about the president unless they have the opportunity to get to know him and examine him," he said.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  7. #37
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    I told the President that if he had a healthier diet over the last 20 years, he might live to be 200 years old.
    lol

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Oh clearly. He was supposed to bring Hope and Change and instead brought More Of The Same.

    Heh, couldn't have said it any better myself. Again, why I have such disdain for liberals.
    TH,

    I view the 'love you/don't love you now' reaction to Obama as something a bit wider than a 'liberal' thing. Remember all those conservatives who flocked to Bush believing he would lead a 'crusade from Pennsylvania Avenue'? They stayed home in droves in 2006 when they finally realized he wasn't going to charge forth with sword & cross slaying 'liberals' and other demons of the conservative mind.

    In some ways their initial belief in him was even more remarkable than the stupid messiah stuff in 2008. At least Obama was able to live up to the image of a transformative figure....during the campaign. Bush was the product of a political machine nearly from birth.

    However, I see it as a wider phenomenon. People don't like how politics works, so they over invest in believing that their candidate is not only not 'one of them' but can also somehow do magic things like legislate whatever they want whenever they want just because. 'Magical realism' has spread across the spectrum. Last election it was Trump & Sanders who cornered the market. Trump has been truer to the hype than Bush or Obama, but that may also be his downfall.

    People want what they can't have, so they make believe they can have it. Politicians are happy to play along if it gets them elected.


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  9. #39
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    astralis,

    even then, not even close to the same realm.
    But, doesn’t that imply that GOPers actually listen, and care what other people think?
    Didn’t seem relevant.

    = = = = =

    Tophatter,

    Ok but your counterpoint means nothing because we're not talking about the tax bill. We're talking about Obamacare, which you apparently agree with me on: It was handled badly and without bipartisan support. That's the only point I was making. You could agree (which you now have) or engage in Whataboutism (which you did).
    Sorry if I misunderstood you.
    I thought the topic was tactics, not healthcare vs tax reform.
    My mistake. Both parties used similar tactics (give or take a hearing or 50), but on different subjects.

    As for Ms Walters, I’m not the one who posted a video of her while making the claim that lefties were disappointed in Obama. You were. So, the onus is on you: prove she’s a lefty.
    Still waiting for that proof…

    In the meantime, https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb...-obama-messiah
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  10. #40
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    However, I see it as a wider phenomenon. People don't like how politics works, so they over invest in believing that their candidate is not only not 'one of them' but can also somehow do magic things like legislate whatever they want whenever they want just because. 'Magical realism' has spread across the spectrum. Last election it was Trump & Sanders who cornered the market. Trump has been truer to the hype than Bush or Obama, but that may also be his downfall.
    yes, yet another danger of legislative paralysis. people want that leader to break the paralysis and make things happen for them. this has already led to a stronger executive branch, coming at the expense of the legislative branch.

    there have been multiple judicial cases that have now been brought up regarding gerrymandering. the last time, the SC narrowly rejected it because the justices felt that there was no quantifiable way to determine what a fair map would be. however, the same tools that the GOP used for gerrymandering have now been used to present that quantifiable case.

    multiple lower courts have struck down gerrymandering, and with the appeals, the Supreme Court will now hear 4 cases this term. i don't think that it's an exaggeration to state that this will be some of the most crucial judicial decisions since the civil rights era.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post

    As for Ms Walters, I’m not the one who posted a video of her while making the claim that lefties were disappointed in Obama. You were. So, the onus is on you: prove she’s a lefty.
    Still waiting for that proof…

    In the meantime, https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb...-obama-messiah
    Ms Walters comes from a long-since vanished era of journalists that kept the political views and affiliations fairly quiet. So if you're looking for a scanned copy of her Democratic Party membership card, I don't have one for you.

    On the other hand, if you think a Republican or conservative ever uttered the words "We thought that he was going to be -- I shouldn't say this at Christmastime -- but the next messiah" or has been honored by a GLAAD Excellence in Media Award ("who, through her work, has increased the visibility and understanding of the LGBT community"), the very first person so honored with that award, in fact, well then more power to you. We're all entitled to our delusions.

    You know what amused me though? Very early on, before Obama was anointed as the Chosen One by the Left, there were actual skeptics amongst the Left. (Stay with me on this one)
    Some on the Left actually had the balls to question Obama...and even (gasp!) call him out for his "messianic" overtones. Here's an article from alt-right website Mother Jones, back in 2008.

    Barack Obama’s Messiah Complex (Trigger Alert: That link makes for some uncomfortable reading on all sorts of levels.)

    And then there were others on the Left that simply embraced the shit out of those messianic overtones, whilst carefully skirting full-blown blasphemy...sort of. (I can't help but wonder if Mr. Stein's article in Mother Jones was a conscious or unconscious reaction to this opinion piece just a month prior by Ezra Klein) Take a look:

    Obamas finest speeches do not excite. They do not inform. They don't even really inspire. They elevate. . . . He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh . . . Obama is, at his best, able to call us back to our highest selves. ~ Ezra Klein January 4, 2008

    And then you had Congressman Bobby Rush (D-IL) who just came out and said it:
    "I would characterize the Senate race as being a race where Obama was, let’s say, blessed and highly favored. That’s not routine. There’s something else going on. I think that Obama, his election to the Senate, was divinely ordered"

    And then there's these slobbering clowns....

    "What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation’s political history…the event itself is so extraordinary,that another chapter could be added to the Bible to chronicle its significance." ~ Jesse Jackson, Jr.

    "This is bigger than Kennedy…this is the New Testament." ~ Chris Matthews

    "We’re here to evolve to a higher plane…He is an evolved leader…[he] has an ear for eloquence and a Tongue dipped in the Unvarnished Truth." ~ Oprah Winfrey

    "Obama is standing above the country, above the world. He’s sort of God." ~ Evan Thomas

    Yeah, nothing Messianic about any of that. So tell me again how "no one in the Democratic Party, let alone on the left, ever used such phrases"? Yeah, they (usually) didn't spell it out. They didn't have to.


    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Ah, ok? Your point being? I never denied the Right liked to label Obama with the Messiah/Chosen One tag. But holy shit, I wonder where they got THAT idea from??
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Remember all those conservatives who flocked to Bush believing he would lead a 'crusade from Pennsylvania Avenue'? They stayed home in droves in 2006 when they finally realized he wasn't going to charge forth with sword & cross slaying 'liberals' and other demons of the conservative mind.
    No, actually I don't. I remember what it was like in this country back then as well and I don't remember anything comparable to 2008-2009. My earliest Presidential campaign memories were Reagan vs Mondale and not even Reagan after his first term was worshipped like Obama was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    However, I see it as a wider phenomenon. People don't like how politics works, so they over invest in believing that their candidate is not only not 'one of them' but can also somehow do magic things like legislate whatever they want whenever they want just because.
    So true, so very true. People don't really like how anything in life works. They want things in black and white, yes or no, with silver bullets to solve their problems.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  13. #43
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    I don't remember that sentiment at all during the 2000 campaign either. Lots of soft touch stuff like family values, compassionate conservatism, lots of agreement between Gore and Bush on the issues, splitting hairs here or there, what was going to happen with all the budget surpluses, etc.

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    2000 was probably the last normal campaign, excepting of course the very end of it.

    2004 was pretty nasty, with the swift boat crap, all that cheese-eating surrender monkey stuff, etc. i agree it wasn't really Bush-worship, more like demonizing Dems as terrorist-sympths.

    2008 was better despite palin pushing her Real Americans stuff, mostly because McCain to his credit pushed back hard and publicly on the crazy portions of his party.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  15. #45
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Ms Walters comes from a long-since vanished era of journalists that kept the political views and affiliations fairly quiet. So if you're looking for a scanned copy of her Democratic Party membership card, I don't have one for you.

    On the other hand, if you think a Republican or conservative ever uttered the words "We thought that he was going to be -- I shouldn't say this at Christmastime -- but the next messiah" or has been honored by a GLAAD Excellence in Media Award ("who, through her work, has increased the visibility and understanding of the LGBT community"), the very first person so honored with that award, in fact, well then more power to you. We're all entitled to our delusions.

    You know what amused me though? Very early on, before Obama was anointed as the Chosen One by the Left, there were actual skeptics amongst the Left. (Stay with me on this one)
    Some on the Left actually had the balls to question Obama...and even (gasp!) call him out for his "messianic" overtones. Here's an article from alt-right website Mother Jones, back in 2008.
    Barack Obama’s Messiah Complex (Trigger Alert: That link makes for some uncomfortable reading on all sorts of levels.)

    And then there were others on the Left that simply embraced the shit out of those messianic overtones, whilst carefully skirting full-blown blasphemy...sort of. (I can't help but wonder if Mr. Stein's article in Mother Jones was a conscious or unconscious reaction to this opinion piece just a month prior by Ezra Klein) Take a look:

    Obamas finest speeches do not excite. They do not inform. They don't even really inspire. They elevate. . . . He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh . . . Obama is, at his best, able to call us back to our highest selves. ~ Ezra Klein January 4, 2008

    And then you had Congressman Bobby Rush (D-IL) who just came out and said it:
    "I would characterize the Senate race as being a race where Obama was, let’s say, blessed and highly favored. That’s not routine. There’s something else going on. I think that Obama, his election to the Senate, was divinely ordered"

    And then there's these slobbering clowns....

    "What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation’s political history…the event itself is so extraordinary,that another chapter could be added to the Bible to chronicle its significance." ~ Jesse Jackson, Jr.

    "This is bigger than Kennedy…this is the New Testament." ~ Chris Matthews

    "We’re here to evolve to a higher plane…He is an evolved leader…[he] has an ear for eloquence and a Tongue dipped in the Unvarnished Truth." ~ Oprah Winfrey

    "Obama is standing above the country, above the world. He’s sort of God." ~ Evan Thomas

    Yeah, nothing Messianic about any of that. So tell me again how "no one in the Democratic Party, let alone on the left, ever used such phrases"? Yeah, they (usually) didn't spell it out. They didn't have to.




    Ah, ok? Your point being? I never denied the Right liked to label Obama with the Messiah/Chosen One tag. But holy shit, I wonder where they got THAT idea from??
    I am trying to avoid commenting on this thread, since it's now 2018, but not EVERYONE on the Left bought into the stupid Messiah complex. There were a lot of people who preferred and voted for Hillary Clinton, obviously thinking she was a better candidate than Obama. Given that HRC is kind of conventional, it's unlikely this group of people bought into the Obama-complex.

    Obviously a lot of other people were complete morons, and a lot of "moderate" conservatives also foolishly went along with the Obama Presidency in the early days.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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