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  1. #16
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    joe,

    What, even after the ACA? "Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage, and basically, you know, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical to getting the thing to pass,"
    that's a good point. the ACA was and is the triumph of technocratic Third-Wayism over standard leftism. It was/is clunky and awkward and complicated primarily because Democrats were afraid of being called out for socialized medicine, for disruption, and for losing pharma donations. it's hard to sell that (although it still remains surprisingly popular because of the final product, giving more people insurance).

    well, they've essentially paid this price ANYWAYS, while the GOP has been busy trying to knock off its most fiscally responsible part (the individual mandate).

    so the obvious Dem retort the next go-around will be to substitute the ACA for what they wanted in the first place, universal healthcare or at least the public option. it's far easier to understand, even if it will cost a lot more-- but again, fiscal concerns have now gone out the window courtesy of the GOP.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    joe,
    ironically, i'm thinking of it probably in a slightly different way.

    it's pretty clear by now that Americans are no longer interested in 90s-style technocracy and Obama 2nd Administration style incrementalism and gradualism. they want something BIG, and easy to comprehend. these are things that are hard for Congress to execute without a commanding majority...which is why Congress has terrible approval ratings.
    And his first term? the disappointment was palpable long before his second term.

    And what people bemoaned the most about Obama was a lack of leadership. They weren't blaming Congress. They were blaming Obama for not stepping up to the plate and leading.

    I feel like we've had this conversation before...

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    joe,
    that's a good point. the ACA was and is the triumph of technocratic Third-Wayism over standard leftism.
    I dunno, the whole "ram this shit down your throats" tactic seems pretty hard Left to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    well, they've essentially paid this price ANYWAYS, while the GOP has been busy trying to knock off its most fiscally responsible part (the individual mandate).
    Ah yes, the whole "Force people to get health insurance at the point of a gun" strategy
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    joe,

    And his first term? the disappointment was palpable long before his second term.

    And what people bemoaned the most about Obama was a lack of leadership. They weren't blaming Congress. They were blaming Obama for not stepping up to the plate and leading.

    I feel like we've had this conversation before...
    no, not quite the earlier conversation. i'm not really talking about the leadership qualities of Obama, but the PRODUCTS of the leadership.

    Obama was actually pretty good, especially in his first administration, about getting his legislative priorities passed. what i'm saying now is that those legislative bills didn't represent political winners the way Obama thought they would. the ACA is hard to understand, even though it was a policy victory for the Democrats.

    from a GOP perspective, of course they didn't WANT Obama to have better leadership, because better leadership would have meant more Dem legislative wins. we actually see that mini-debate with the Dems today-- even if Dems could impeach Trump, would they really want to replace him with Pence, whom would be a far more effective leader?

    I dunno, the whole "ram this shit down your throats" tactic seems pretty hard Left to me.
    compared to what McConnell is doing today, the ACA is a veritable miracle of bipartisanship and careful thought. partisanship and rushed legislative jobs are not a monopoly for either side.

    Ah yes, the whole "Force people to get health insurance at the point of a gun" strategy
    yes, this is what i mean by the ACA being hard to sell politically. the fact that most Americans -approve- of the ACA now is actually a testament of political selling, as you pointed out earlier.
    Last edited by astralis; 16 Jan 18, at 17:10.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  4. #19
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    If there were universal health care, the ACA seems like something the Republicans would come up with as an alternative.

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    The condescending contempt the liberal Left has for "Joe Six-Pack" practically oozes out of their pores

    Joe,

    I would argue that this is a 2 way street...and it is hardly a new attitude.

    I have little to no time for the "Loony Left". Just as I have no time for the radical Right. Both are a pox on our body politic.

    I'm an East Coast guy and come from the bastion of Loony Leftism.

    But there are certainly more than enough leavening effects by local moderates to keep things for getting too far gone (see Massachusetts with a Republican governor). You occasionally see the reverse in the heartland (see Dick Durbin) but not as much.
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    If there were universal health care, the ACA seems like something the Republicans would come up with as an alternative.
    It was very much what the GOP pitched to oppose Hillary Care in the early 1990s.

    And keep in mind the ACA was modelled on the plan that Mitt Romney came up with for Massachusetts.
    “We had been hopelessly labouring to plough waste lands; to make nationality grow in a place full of the certainty of God… Among the tribes our creed could be only like the desert grass – a beautiful swift seeming of spring; which, after a day’s heat, fell dusty.”
    ― T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom: A Triumph

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    joe,
    no, not quite the earlier conversation. i'm not really talking about the leadership qualities of Obama, but the PRODUCTS of the leadership.
    I'm talking about the discontent of liberals with Obama. It was summed up in one word: leadership.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    from a GOP perspective, of course they didn't WANT Obama to have better leadership, because better leadership would have meant more Dem legislative wins. we actually see that mini-debate with the Dems today-- even if Dems could impeach Trump, would they really want to replace him with Pence, whom would be a far more effective leader?
    They're f--king idiots to begin with, so I don't trust the GOP to lead ants to a picnic

    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    The condescending contempt the liberal Left has for "Joe Six-Pack" practically oozes out of their pores

    Joe,

    I would argue that this is a 2 way street...and it is hardly a new attitude.

    I have little to no time for the "Loony Left". Just as I have no time for the radical Right. Both are a pox on our body politic.
    No question about it, the Right is just as guilty. But given that they're lambasted as rich old white fossils or braindead rednecks, the Left would be able to do better. And, in the current context, it's Trump in the White House while people are wandering around in a daze still wondering how in the hell we got ourselves into this mess.
    Last edited by TopHatter; 18 Jan 18, at 23:20.
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  8. #23
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    joe,

    I'm talking about the discontent of liberals with Obama. It was summed up in one word: leadership.
    the discontent of liberals? AFAIK, it was because they were hoping Obama would demand more liberal things, not how he went about achieving them (the leadership part). ACA? they wanted universal healthcare or at least a public option. remember that lame beer summit? they wanted slave reparations.

    to the extent that liberals talked about leadership, for the most part i viewed it as rather fairy-tale, because they envisioned it would be along the lines of 'just make a stirring speech, and suddenly Congress will all fall in line for an assault weapons ban, for universal healthcare, and a free pony for everyone.'

    this is pretty standard will to power delusion, like conservatives thinking that if only Mitch McConnell wasn't such a cuck, we'd all be living in Breitbart paradise by now. reality is rather messier.

    BTW, on a larger note, this whole discussion of the executive showing leadership and doing big things is yet another demonstration of how broken the legislative branch is. the inability for Congress to do anything other than being deadlocked is causing both liberals and conservatives to demand more and more from the executive.

    this is not ideal for a Republic.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Yep, that's it in a nutshell. The condescending contempt the liberal Left has for "Joe Six-Pack" practically oozes out of their pores.
    That is true for some of them. Certainly a lot of the middle class activists.

    I would add two things. One is that there are parts of the 'liberal left' who are more sympathetic to 'Joe Sixpack' than anyone else on the political spectrum. They just don't get on TV as much. The other is that the contempt of the 'liberal left' is matched & exceeded by that of the right. They are just as prepared to pretend they care as long as 'Joe Sixpack' is anti-abortion, dislikes the right minorities at the right time, joins the military and shuts his damned Commynist mouth about healthcare, wages, conditions, unions & the like.

    The 'liberal left' will condescend to 'Joe' from here to sundown, the GOP will let him die in the street & then blame it on him. One is contemptible, the other is inhuman.


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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    BF,



    worse, rather: they couldn't even persuade fellow Dems to nominate him as their party standard, after all.

    i always knew that policy held little interest for most in the US Prez election, but it was, and is, shocking to me the extent to which pure ability to sell matters.

    well, one thing is obvious-- I doubt any Presidential nominee will have their HQ in Brooklyn anymore, lol.
    but...but...but, it was all a DNC conspiracy. Bernie would won! Bernie wuz robbed!

    I think general anger with the system opens the door for sales over substance. The extent to which it matters varies.


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  11. #26
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    Tophatter,

    I dunno, the whole "ram this shit down your throats" tactic seems pretty hard Left to me.
    You might want to review the recent tax ‘reform’ bill, and do a little compare-and-contrast to Obamacare.

    President says to Congress, “You do it; I’ll sign it” ? Check.
    Congressional majority party drafts a bill without the opposition’s support? Check.

    As for discontent among liberals with Obama, you’re going to have to find some kind of evidence for that. I didn’t see it then, and I don’t think anyone sees it now. astralis’ take is about right: The disappointment was because he wasn’t living up to the media’s leftist label. Like Bill Clinton, he’s a Democrat. And, over the last 20 years or so, that means dead center middle-of-the-road.

    You do remember the middle-of-the-road, don't you? That's the bit Bob Dole fought with Bill Clinton over back in 1996. After that, the GOP just gave up and lurched so far to the right as to be denouncing Eisenhower and Nixon.

    The main cause of disappointment, if there was any, was because the right wing built up Obama with flowery phrases like “The Anointed One,” or “The Chosen One.” No one in the Democratic Party, let alone on the left, ever used such phrases AFAIK. No, these were deliberate attempts to set him up to fail: make it impossible for Obama to live up to ridiculously inflated expectations, expectations created by the right wing.

    Then, when the national and global economy are slamming into the biggest brick wall in 75 years, work as hard as possible to undermine any efforts to alleviate the pain with insane tactics such as threatening to shut down the government. Sabotage the national government in a time of high crisis, for purely partisan reasons.

    (Of course, once that GOPer butt hits the Oval Office chair no one wants to hear, “So, how are you going to pay for that, big spender?”)
    Trust me?
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    joe,the discontent of liberals? AFAIK, it was because they were hoping Obama would demand more liberal things, not how he went about achieving them (the leadership part). ACA? they wanted universal healthcare or at least a public option. remember that lame beer summit? they wanted slave reparations.
    Oh clearly. He was supposed to bring Hope and Change and instead brought More Of The Same.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    to the extent that liberals talked about leadership, for the most part i viewed it as rather fairy-tale, because they envisioned it would be along the lines of 'just make a stirring speech, and suddenly Congress will all fall in line for an assault weapons ban, for universal healthcare, and a free pony for everyone.'
    Heh, couldn't have said it any better myself. Again, why I have such disdain for liberals.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    this is pretty standard will to power delusion, like conservatives thinking that if only Mitch McConnell wasn't such a cuck, we'd all be living in Breitbart paradise by now. reality is rather messier
    Mitch McConnell couldn't legislate his way out of a wet paper bag. I can't think of a more uninspiring high level politician. Obama at least had bags of charisma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    One is contemptible, the other is inhuman.
    No question about it. Very well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Tophatter,
    You might want to review the recent tax ‘reform’ bill, and do a little compare-and-contrast to Obamacare.

    President says to Congress, “You do it; I’ll sign it” ? Check.
    Congressional majority party drafts a bill without the opposition’s support? Check.

    As for discontent among liberals with Obama, you’re going to have to find some kind of evidence for that. I didn’t see it then, and I don’t think anyone sees it now. astralis’ take is about right: The disappointment was because he wasn’t living up to the media’s leftist label. Like Bill Clinton, he’s a Democrat. And, over the last 20 years or so, that means dead center middle-of-the-road.

    The main cause of disappointment, if there was any, was because the right wing built up Obama with flowery phrases like “The Anointed One,” or “The Chosen One.” No one in the Democratic Party, let alone on the left, ever used such phrases AFAIK. No, these were deliberate attempts to set him up to fail: make it impossible for Obama to live up to ridiculously inflated expectations, expectations created by the right wing.

    Then, when the national and global economy are slamming into the biggest brick wall in 75 years, work as hard as possible to undermine any efforts to alleviate the pain with insane tactics such as threatening to shut down the government. Sabotage the national government in a time of high crisis, for purely partisan reasons.

    (Of course, once that GOPer butt hits the Oval Office chair no one wants to hear, “So, how are you going to pay for that, big spender?”)
    I'm sorry, were you expecting me to defend the tax bill or anything about it? You'll be waiting a long long time. Nice assumption on your part though. Let me guess, you also think I'm a fan of Trump, too.

    "Proof of discontent among liberals with Obama"...Wow...Really? Where the hell were you from 2011-2016?
    Here's something from 2011, in the notoriously right-wing NY Times This has been the summer that liberal discontent with Obama has finally crystallized.

    Want more? Ok, here just click on this link.

    "No one in the Democratic Party, let alone on the left, ever used such phrases". Ouch. Didn't do your homework on that one either, did you. Here, just click play. Let me know when you get to the part where she says “We thought that he was going to be...the next messiah”

    (Oh, and I daresay that she was only saying out loud what a lot of people on the Left were thinking, hoping, wishing and praying. I don't know how well you remember what 2007-2008 was like here in the United States, but I remember it vividly. The overweening eyes-brimming-with-tears hero worship was unlike anything I'd ever seen...I don't think even Cheeto Benito's supporters measured up in 2016, except in gullibility, they really set the benchmark on that one. )

    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Oh clearly. He was supposed to bring Hope and Change and instead brought More Of The Same.

    Heh, couldn't have said it any better myself. Again, why I have such disdain for liberals.


    Mitch McConnell couldn't legislate his way out of a wet paper bag. I can't think of a more uninspiring high level politician. Obama at least had bags of charisma.



    No question about it. Very well said.



    I'm sorry, were you expecting me to defend the tax bill or anything about it? You'll be waiting a long long time. Nice assumption on your part though. Let me guess, you also think I'm a fan of Trump, too.

    "Proof of discontent among liberals with Obama"...Wow...Really? Where the hell were you from 2011-2016?
    Here's something from 2011, in the notoriously right-wing NY Times This has been the summer that liberal discontent with Obama has finally crystallized.

    Want more? Ok, here just click on this link.

    "No one in the Democratic Party, let alone on the left, ever used such phrases". Ouch. Didn't do your homework on that one either, did you. Here, just click play. Let me know when you get to the part where she says “We thought that he was going to be...the next messiah”

    (Oh, and I daresay that she was only saying out loud what a lot of people on the Left were thinking, hoping, wishing and praying. I don't know how well you remember what 2007-2008 was like here in the United States, but I remember it vividly. The overweening eyes-brimming-with-tears hero worship was unlike anything I'd ever seen...I don't think even Cheeto Benito's supporters measured up in 2016, except in gullibility, they really set the benchmark on that one. )

    Did I say I expected you to defend the tax bill? You said Obamacare was rammed down the throat, and all I did was to point out that it was pretty much handled the same way as this tax bill: badly, and without bipartisan support.

    I’m not sure what gives you the impression Barbara Walters is a lefty. I honestly can’t find anything about her politics, so I’ll just note that two of the men she dated – Alan Greenspan and John Warner – were GOPers. Oh, and then there’s Roy Cohn, The Trumpet’s favorite lawyer (as well as Joe McCarthy’s sidekick).

    Some lefty.
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  14. #29
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    all I did was to point out that it was pretty much handled the same way as this tax bill: badly, and without bipartisan support.
    even then, not even close to the same realm.

    there were numerous public hearings, and Obama deliberately took a hands-off approach because he was DESPERATE for even a fig leaf of bipartisan support. the end result was that the GOP got multiple concessions to the ACA, pocketed them, and then refused to budge at all.

    NONE of this was the case with the tax bill, as the GOP decided from the outset to use budget reconciliation as the vehicle. Manchin very correctly pointed out that even mild concessions would have been enough to win his and other red-state dem senator support, but there was absolutely no interest in even having the discussion.

    all of this to say that if the ACA can be deemed as being rammed down the electorate's throat (and there WAS some of that involved), then this tax law by comparison was ramming another body part altogether. it's all relative.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Did I say I expected you to defend the tax bill? You said Obamacare was rammed down the throat, and all I did was to point out that it was pretty much handled the same way as this tax bill: badly, and without bipartisan support.
    Ok but your counterpoint means nothing because we're not talking about the tax bill. We're talking about Obamacare, which you apparently agree with me on: It was handled badly and without bipartisan support. That's the only point I was making. You could agree (which you now have) or engage in Whataboutism (which you did).

    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    I’m not sure what gives you the impression Barbara Walters is a lefty. I honestly can’t find anything about her politics, so I’ll just note that two of the men she dated – Alan Greenspan and John Warner – were GOPers. Oh, and then there’s Roy Cohn, The Trumpet’s favorite lawyer (as well as Joe McCarthy’s sidekick).

    Some lefty.
    Show me where she's a righty. You know, a righty that thought that Obama(!!) was going to be the next messiah. Some righty.

    Also, liberals never date conservatives? Got it.

    Oh and I'm guessing you have nothing to say about liberal disappointment in Obama? You asked for proof. No comment?
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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