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  1. #76
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    Crapping oil into NK at the same time.

  2. #77
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    I see a whole bunch of tempests in teacups. The only actions on that list that would be unquestionably racist would be refusing to rent to black tenants and removing black players, but that's only if you are doing out of personal vendetta: If you are doing out of a customer request, that makes your customers racist, but that doesn't make YOU racist (even if you're committing a crime in trying to discriminate).
    The guy makes blatant racist comments, but nope, "not a racist".

    This isn't like Ross Perot saying "you people" back in 1992. Trump has an extensive history and has made 100s of comments, and actions, whether you want to call them race-baiting, racially tinged, racist, or racially insensitive. In other words, a well-established pattern of behavior that doesn't make allegations of racism questionable at all.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 15 Jan 18, at 21:35.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple C View Post
    I am going to agree with the passage in bold, and yet add that those policy changes will be the ones that, when their results come to fruition, we will have cause to regret. How long the spree will last the midterms remains to be seen, as Trump has both higher disapproval and lower approval than Obama at that point of his presidency.
    I know you are not just talking about the tax law, but here's a break down of the tax law from a neutral observer:

    https://hbr.org/ideacast/2017/12/bre...e-tax-law.html

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post
    I know you are not just talking about the tax law, but here's a break down of the tax law from a neutral observer:

    https://hbr.org/ideacast/2017/12/bre...e-tax-law.html
    Also:

    https://www.thestreet.com/story/1444...ment-boom.html

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...112-story.html

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ed/1023848001/

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1F30YZ

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/09/lege...aboolainternal

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/15/ubs-...ax-reform.html

    Nothing to do with Trump, or tax reform. Certainly not relevant to ordinary Americans.

    Oh, wait....
    Last edited by citanon; 15 Jan 18, at 22:21.

  5. #80
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    The guy makes blatant racist comments, but nope, "not a racist".

    This isn't like Ross Perot saying "you people" back in 1992. Trump has an extensive history and has made 100s of comments, and actions, whether you want to call them race-baiting, racially tinged, racist, or racially insensitive. In other words, a well-established pattern of behavior that doesn't make allegations of racism questionable at all.
    Like I said earlier, I think Trump is a garden-variety racist for a man of his age. It would be quite shocking to think that he has any substantial agreement with the KKK or Dixiecrats, who would be in favor of, say, segregation. That's the fever-dream of paranoid people who have watched a bit too much "Handmaid's Tale."

    The other comments you are listing out are NOT blatant racist comments, they only establish a "pattern of behavior," like you said. Like, if a cop punches a black suspect, that's not "blatantly racist." If he punches every black suspect he meets, and gives all the white suspects cupcakes and coffee, that's a different story.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    citanon,
    Storm in a teacup? When major news magazines question the President’s sanity, call it the worst first-year in history or imply that he’s a big baby (see this week’s The Economist), there’s more than just the hard-right wing’s favorite canard, “liberal bias.”

    The “thing,” as you put is isn’t “is the left winning over America.” Rather, it is, “Can the GOP – and a democratic America – survive Trump?”

    The tax break is no victory for Trump’s base, nor for the typical GOPer. It is very clearly a massive corporate give-away that will add $1.4 trillion to the national debt without producing 1/10th of that in benefits. Typical GOPer tax bill, writ large.
    My withholding is going down, my child tax credit is going up and my standard deduction is doubling and this isn't a win? Oh, the promise of lower taxes and a tighter labor market prompted my boss to offer health insurance for the first time ever, and he's picking up 50% of the premiums. So now I have health insurance as well. If you count the share of my premiums my boss pays as inkind compensation I've gotten a serious raise, just on the promise of tax reform.

  7. #82
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    I know people who have been apolitical for years who have finally been motivated to get off their butts and march in protest against Trump. People who had never been to any kinds of demonstration before.
    Where were they in the last elections ? no show

    This is why i think Trump is the best thing to happen to american democracy. Now more DO give a damn

    When major news magazines question the President’s sanity, call it the worst first-year in history or imply that he’s a big baby (see this week’s The Economist), there’s more than just the hard-right wing’s favorite canard, “liberal bias.”
    How far back are these publications going in presidential history ?

    The media hypes everything up and exaggerates things to the point i wonder if it was put together by a bunch of ten year olds : D

    What i heard locally is they will find their feet after a year. Let's see how this second year goes. Three left. Can we call it at the end of his term
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Jan 18, at 02:14.

  8. #83
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    By itself, yes. But with so many other things, it's a part of a disturbing pattern of behavior.

    • three times refused to disassociate himself from David Duke, hedging after Duke endorsed him
    • some "very fine people" among the white supremacists at the Charlottesville rally
    • the whole Obama birther bullshit
    • sued and settled twice for discriminating against blacks applying for tenancy
    • fined because his casino managers would remove black card dealers at player request
    • black NFL protestors are "sons of bitches", "fire 'em"
    • Mexicans, "they're rapists"
    • "She probably, maybe she wasn't allowed to have anything to say" on the Muslim Gold Star family at the DNCC
    • saying an American-born judge gave unfair rulings on the Trump University thing because "he’s a Mexican"
    • inciting violence (e.g. 'I'd like to punch him in the face'), then defending supporters of his who assailed black protestors at his rallies

    He's appointed a token black to his Cabinet. But the man is deeply racist, and he's been exploiting some pretty ugly racist undercurrents in society for several years now. He doesn't dog whistle, he just straight up whistles. Racists get the message loud and clear. In particular there was a wave a racist incidents/assaults during the primaries/post-election, and he says "stop it", as if that excuses him, as he clearly incited it. And he goes around with fake backpedals like "the Hispanics/blacks love me" etc., speaking of them as if they're some monolithic group without distinct personalities or characteristics, or individuality.
    According to what i've learnt from this board none of the above qualifies as 'racist'. The bar is set so high that unless he actually goes beyond incitement as in commands people to do the killing he won't be a racist. Clearly, people here do not subscribe to the liberal definition of the word. I actually find this way of thinking less triggering because none of it matters.

    A lot of the above can be called politically incorrect. Who he hangs out with is his problem, the political costs etc. If he hangs out with snakes he's going to get bit one way or another

    In a private establishment they get to say who comes in, who works there etc.

    In a govt institution there is nothing he can do to prevent non-whites participating. There is no way he can change that either. And in publicly traded corps the rules on the subject are so damn strict that its not worth worth defying them. The market won't stand for it

    I think i understand why he got on with the Saudi ruler. Both of them want to change their systems. Both are not expected to last out their terms

    Bannon is out, sidelined after he had a row with the family.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Jan 18, at 02:15.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    According to what i've learnt from this board none of the above qualifies as 'racist'. The bar is set so high that unless he actually goes beyond incitement as in commands people to do the killing he won't be a racist. Clearly, people here do not subscribe to the liberal definition of the word. I actually find this way of thinking less triggering because none of it matters.

    A lot of the above can be called politically incorrect. Who he hangs out with is his problem, the political costs etc. If he hangs out with snakes he's going to get bit one way or another

    In a private establishment they get to say who comes in, who works there etc.

    In a govt institution there is nothing he can do to prevent non-whites participating. There is no way he can change that either. And in publicly traded corps the rules on the subject are so damn strict that its not worth worth defying them. The market won't stand for it

    I think i understand why he got on with the Saudi ruler. Both of them want to change their systems. Both are not expected to last out their terms

    Bannon is out, sidelined after he had a row with the family.
    Right.... and what I've learned from this board is that having Reverend Jeremiah Wright as your spiritual adviser and frequent guest to the white house is a nothing burger....

    If you want roasted goose, roast them all.

    Roast this one. Roast the last one. Roast the next one. Roast the wanna be ones.
    Last edited by bfng3569; 16 Jan 18, at 03:56.

  10. #85
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    citanon,

    Polls seem to show low confidence for Trump, but are they more accurate than last time or even less?

    I know people who have been apolitical for years, who are turning quietly but firmly pro Trump.

    Much bellahoo aside, congressional Democrats have been stunning ineffective at stopping the Trump agenda. What's been stopping legislation has actually been internecine discord in the GOP and picking a bad target in Healthcare. Going forward, is this siege like media environment making the GOP retrench or fracture? It seems the ones who can't stomach Trump are leaving (or dying in poor McCain's case) and the rest is banding together.

    Then you look at the team around Trump. Discipline has kicked in, the adults are in charge, Bannon is crushed, Mulvany has been chastised and fallen in line, the kids have realized they are too soft to play Washington hardball. They are on track for the most drastic and effective and pervasive shift on Federal government policy in decades.

    Compared with what Trump has done in year one Obama looks like a JV team second stringer.

    What I'm getting at is this: while the left has been obsessing about Trump tweets and debating metaphysical unknowable the ground is shifting beneath their feet as team Trump and team GOP are left alone to make seismic, concrete policy changes. Whether by design or accident Trump has created cover and distraction that has resulted in the best window of conservative policy making in decades.
    given the GOP dominance in 2017, they have done surprisingly little, not much. under a disciplined President, they would have been easily capable of a lot more. both Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell had, and have, the ability to do far more than they are doing now, were it not for the President. a more wily President could have easily torn the Democratic Party asunder in the shock of the '16 election. -Bernie Sanders- was talking about working with Trump. that is no longer the case.

    to the extent that the GOP has succeeded, it is because of the easy victories that just require a majority vote-- the judges, the tax bill. in the case of the latter, it is through techniques such as reconciliation that the GOP will have much cause to regret when the wheel turns. i guarantee you that with a future unified Dem Congress under a Dem President-- something that will come, sooner or later-- there will be little obsession over how, say, a universal healthcare bill will be paid for, nor a tag in the trillions. there will be no talk of compromise.

    regarding the political winds of 2018, i'd submit that the the picture that you are describing-- major conservative policy victories, fake polls, people quietly turning pro-Trump, etc-- is not aligned with the unprecedented number of GOP retirements, particularly in the House. a major Dem wave is coming. the GOP hold on the Senate is protected only because of the ridiculously bad map for the Dems this year, but I will be surprised if the GOP does not lose over 30 seats in the House.

    and with that, GOP legislative action will come to an end. if the 35% chance for Dems to take the Senate comes to fruition-- odds equivalent to Trump winning in 2016-- the effective GOP judge-stuffing will come to an end as well.

    current GOP thinking about fake polls, etc bring to mind the metaphor of a smoker ridiculing his doctor for telling him that smoking will kill him. "i'm alive, aren't i?" i certainly would be happier if the GOP as a whole were fully confident about their chances in 2018, but they are not. you have no idea the type of rage Trump brings out in the Democratic Party...and as the Democratic Party found out in 2010, that is what brings people to the polls.
    Last edited by astralis; 16 Jan 18, at 05:27.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  11. #86
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    Asty,

    I think you just gave a glass half empty reply to my glass half full spiel. =)

    Mid-terms are a bit hard to call. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

  12. #87
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    My withholding is going down, my child tax credit is going up and my standard deduction is doubling and this isn't a win? Oh, the promise of lower taxes and a tighter labor market prompted my boss to offer health insurance for the first time ever, and he's picking up 50% of the premiums. So now I have health insurance as well. If you count the share of my premiums my boss pays as inkind compensation I've gotten a serious raise, just on the promise of tax reform.
    Here’s a question that the GOPers stop asking the minute their butts hit that Oval Office chair:
    “So, how are you going to pay for that, big spender?”
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  13. #88
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Where were they in the last elections ? no show
    Voting.


    How far back are these publications going in presidential history ?
    “Living memory” good enough for you, sir, or would you prefer 240+ years?
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  14. #89
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Voting.
    Won't compare with 2020. More people will believe their vote counts. Trump has vindicated that ; )


    “Living memory” good enough for you, sir, or would you prefer 240+ years?
    Whose living memory

    All sorts of weird things go on in the US. Twenty, forty years ago who remembers

    America has been going to hell in a hand basket for the last half century
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Jan 18, at 14:54.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    given the GOP dominance in 2017, they have done surprisingly little, not much. under a disciplined President, they would have been easily capable of a lot more. both Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell had, and have, the ability to do far more than they are doing now, were it not for the President. a more wily President could have easily torn the Democratic Party asunder in the shock of the '16 election. -Bernie Sanders- was talking about working with Trump. that is no longer the case.
    FWIW, I agree. Given their advantages, the GOP has pissed away the brass ring, and a huge amount of credit for that goes to Trump. There's a sea change coming, although I doubt that it'll result in actual change (this is Congress we're talking about).

    But then, I expected nothing less from a guy that didn't want the job in the first place and is so far out of his league that I don't even have a metaphor to describe it.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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