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Thread: Shithole Countries

  1. #31
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    So Dick Durbin says Trump said it, Trump said he didn't, both are liars. Graham was non-committal, but two other GOP senators denied Trump said it. That leaves 4 real choices.

    1. Progressives and Never Trumpers will believe Durbin despite his history of lying and pulling political stunts.

    2. Trumpkins will believe Trump despite his history of lying.

    3. Rational people will go he said she said and wonder why the word shithole is more important on the nightly news than half a hundred other things.

    4. Cynics like me who see everything the parties and elected officials do through a political lense will point out that Trump could be on tape no saying anything and this sort of kerfuffle would still blow up because saving the DACA crowd at the cost of changing an immigration system that favors the long term Democratic Party demographic strategy to one that is at least party neutral demographically was never going to be allowed to happen. The only deal that Schumer and Pelosi will accept is a clean DACA bill with chain migration and open borders.

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    it's not the WORD shithole that is truly offensive (although I suppose it's bad enough if you happen to be from that place), it is the reasoning-- that if you are from a quote unquote shithole country, Trump thinks that alone should be enough of a determinant whether or not you get in.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #33
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Ben Franklin on shithole countries, 1751:

    And since Detachments of English from Britain sent to America, will have their Places at Home so soon supply'd and increase so largely here; why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the Exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.

    Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People?
    Also, on the opinion of extraterrestrials of these things.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 13 Jan 18, at 04:32.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    it's not the WORD shithole that is truly offensive (although I suppose it's bad enough if you happen to be from that place), it is the reasoning-- that if you are from a quote unquote shithole country, Trump thinks that alone should be enough of a determinant whether or not you get in.
    I agree that Trump would be wrong about that if that is what he actually thinks. Regarding the word, I wonder which president hasn't called one of those countries a shithole in some private meeting. The problem for Trump is that the people he is meeting with have so little respect for him and invested interest in protecting the office of the presidency that they feel free to share it with the public. The divulged information then find a willing audience in a media that's similarly disposed.

    I would also admit that this has, in a major part been caused by Trump himself. However, the other major parts have to do with a fractious political climate and an muckraking liberal media focused on reporting sensational triviality in the interest of commercialism.
    Last edited by citanon; 13 Jan 18, at 05:30.

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    citanon,

    The problem for Trump is that the people he is meeting with have so little respect for him and invested interest in protecting the office of the presidency that they feel free to share it with the public. The divulged information then find a willing audience in a media that's similarly disposed.

    I would also admit that this has, in a major part been caused by Trump himself. However, the other major parts have to do with a fractious political climate and an muckraking liberal media focused on reporting sensational triviality in the interest of commercialism.
    i can fully imagine any president using that word to describe whatever unpleasant place our troops happen to be in.

    and if this was, say, a national security briefing, then yeah, i'd be more concerned about op-sec, and give greater consideration to Presidential communication privilege.

    in this case, though, this was Trump in the middle of legislative negotiations. the context of him using that word was in a policy proposal. this is absolutely newsworthy, especially what that proposal implies in regards to Trump's thinking on the subject. i don't see how this counts as "sensational triviality in the interest of commercialism". this could very well mean the collapse of the DACA negotiations to begin with, even leaving alone the racism, foreign policy effects, etc.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  6. #36
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    I agree that Trump would be wrong about that if that is what he actually thinks. Regarding the word, I wonder which president hasn't called one of those countries a shithole in some private meeting.
    What Trump is saying though, is he doesn't want those shitty people here, and what makes them shit people is their national/ethnic origin.

    In the context of the discussions Trump was having on DACA, TPS, and immigration, that's what the implication was.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 13 Jan 18, at 06:52.

  7. #37
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    It was as poor as some African countries in 1950.
    Not really relevant to me as this is 2018 and not 1950. A 1950 not too far removed from the ravages of WWII where even Germany could have been called a shithole country. Note I am talking country and not people. I just had a woman in my office who told me she just found out she was adopted after spending a week with who she knew as her father before he died on Christmas Eve at 92. She was crying as she told us what she learned. Her father was US Army and she was born in 1948. She was born in Germany and put up for adoption by the mother who couldn't support her and thought she had a better chance in the US. Maybe Germany was such a country but Germany evolved and pulled herself up like many other countries while others have withered.


    North Korea was richer than South Korea at partition. Yemen was never on the level of a GCC country, but it ran out of oil.
    Wealth of the country is also not relevant to me. Some of these countries are utterly poor with no resources while others have valuable resources concentrate in the hands of a few elite. Meanwhile the average person is poor, with little in the way of adequate education, little in the way of adequate medical care, little in the way of infrastructure, declining life expectancy, rampant disease and sometimes never ending civil war. Consequently they could be shitholes, failed states or basket cases. They have had decades to advance society and instead many seem to have regressed usually due to horrible leadership. Yet it is what it is.

    My wife's country is the Philippines. I have been to the country 54 times and I call it a basket case. Incredibly poor leadership, very corrupt and basically a bankrupt country kept afloat by having 1/3 of it's GNP come in by way of remittances from overseas relatives. Now the amazing thing is the people's resilience in the face of such adversity and their generally bright outlook despite that adversity. Would I live in the Philippines? Yes, I would but I wouldn't live in other countries. However, when someone I know is allowed to die from acute appendicitis because no money for surgery then there is a problem in that country.

    A lot of people would have said those in Asian NIC countries would likely be peasants mucking around in rice paddies for 100 years. People used to have theories of the "alien" and "impenetrable" mind of the Easterner, impossible to modernize or educate.
    That sounds to be more due to a racist view of those people rather than due to a failed country view.

  8. #38
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citanon View Post

    If we are to prioritize people, we need to start prioritizing people based on education and professional skills. I'd take a Haitian doctor who wants to come here any day, but some one with no skills, no secondary education, no English and limited opportunities for integration? I would not be falling over myself to get them in.
    I do agree with the need for people coming in and having the ability to take care of themselves. Unlike most immigrants, I was totally responsible for my wife as the sponsor of her and signed papers to that effect.

    Today's society is no longer brawn based but brain based. You could have 10,000 Irish and 10,000 Chinese come in after the Civil War and build the Transcontinental Railroad. Today it could probably be done with 200 max and machines. Brawn is not much of a viable commodity as those jobs fade away leaving only a handful that can't be automated. Not only do we need better skills we need those who show the drive and desire to make it in America. Not every Irishman nor German came over here as many were reluctant, or afraid, to leave for a new land while others heeded the catch phrase go west young man.

  9. #39
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Not really relevant to me as this is 2018 and not 1950. A 1950 not too far removed from the ravages of WWII where even Germany could have been called a shithole country. [...]

    Wealth of the country is also not relevant to me. Some of these countries are utterly poor with no resources while others have valuable resources concentrate in the hands of a few elite. Meanwhile the average person is poor, with little in the way of adequate education, little in the way of adequate medical care, little in the way of infrastructure, declining life expectancy, rampant disease and sometimes never ending civil war. Consequently they could be shitholes, failed states or basket cases. They have had decades to advance society and instead many seem to have regressed usually due to horrible leadership. Yet it is what it is.
    What's the point you were trying to make here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    citanon,



    i can fully imagine any president using that word to describe whatever unpleasant place our troops happen to be in.

    and if this was, say, a national security briefing, then yeah, i'd be more concerned about op-sec, and give greater consideration to Presidential communication privilege.

    in this case, though, this was Trump in the middle of legislative negotiations. the context of him using that word was in a policy proposal. this is absolutely newsworthy, especially what that proposal implies in regards to Trump's thinking on the subject. i don't see how this counts as "sensational triviality in the interest of commercialism". this could very well mean the collapse of the DACA negotiations to begin with, even leaving alone the racism, foreign policy effects, etc.
    Asty, I don't agree. People need to be able to have closed door legislative discussions to air out the issues in a frank manner. Even if they have some BS racist views they should be able to air it out. If you can't have a discussion in confidence you can't get anywhere.

    As a participant in the negotiations, the Senators present, Democrat or Republican could well tell his: I think that's bullshit Mr. President. We're not gonna reject people based solely on country of origin. I think that's racist and my constituency will never accept it. What they shouldn't do is to have a tell all session with some reporter immediately after. That makes it impossible to have that next discussion.

    There's gonna be more bullshit. People on both sides are going to have to second guess eachother's real motivations and positions like some god damn Politburo meeting, and you won't be able to compromise on policy.

  11. #41
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Why should illiterate people from corrupt, poverty, disease and war ridden countries who will spend the rest of their lives on welfare be prioritized above those who would add to the national wealth and prosperity? It is a legit question. 20 trillion in debt, stagnant social welfare spending low end wages that haven't kept pace with inflation. Adding more unskilled labor doesn't help anyone here. Government's compact is with its citizens first and foremost.

    Double Edge, actually he can and did. Some in Congress are trying to reverse his decision via rewriting the law. If that is what Congress decides, he's stuck since he said he would sign any bill that also had the 4 pillars. However, its a legit question.
    It takes a special kind of bigotry to imply that anyone who happens to come from say, Haiti, must simply because he or she comes from that country be expected to spend the rest of his or her life on welfare.

    As opposed to say, Jean-Claude Brizard, the former CEO of Chicago Public Schools, Mona Scott, the CEO of Monami Entertainment, actress Garcelle Beauvais or WWII fighter pilot Alix Pasquet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post

    and wonder why Trump picked Norway, strange, innit?
    Wasn't it to honor Vidkun Quisling ?
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I am curious, since Z and I are most likely on opposite ends of the divide, but is "shithole countries" politically incorrect now? I, too have used the term. However, I don't see how Taiwan became a shithole country as it certainly doesn't seem to fit. Besides the fact it wasn't even mentioned. On the other hand North Korea, Yemen, Somalia, Haiti, Sudan and a host of others do fit the bill as they will likely never change in 100 years on their own accord.
    Maybe it has to do with a particularly sharp aroma that is only found on streets with open sewars, and in countries with spicy cuisine.
    Taiwan and Korea both had it in the early 1980s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    Maybe it has to do with a particularly sharp aroma that is only found on streets with open sewars, and in countries with spicy cuisine.
    Taiwan and Korea both had it in the early 1980s.
    Parts of Malaysia weren't far off in the late 90s. Quite the olfactory shock crossing the causway from Singapore!


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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    citanon,



    i can fully imagine any president using that word to describe whatever unpleasant place our troops happen to be in.

    and if this was, say, a national security briefing, then yeah, i'd be more concerned about op-sec, and give greater consideration to Presidential communication privilege.

    in this case, though, this was Trump in the middle of legislative negotiations. the context of him using that word was in a policy proposal. this is absolutely newsworthy, especially what that proposal implies in regards to Trump's thinking on the subject. i don't see how this counts as "sensational triviality in the interest of commercialism". this could very well mean the collapse of the DACA negotiations to begin with, even leaving alone the racism, foreign policy effects, etc.
    That is why it was leaked. For the Dems its open borders and the racial balkanization of America or bust.

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