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Thread: Shithole Countries

  1. #16
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Stealing jobs= working for less than the going rate or under the table so the employer can avoid taxes.
    All the car companies with auto plants in the South did that. I'm sure people in Detroit would make the same argument you are.

    Sounds like what people say when arguing for increased minimum wage and unionized labor.

  2. #17
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    We had welfare in the 1880' and 1920's ?
    The Homestead Act was a welfare program, in an age when 60% of people were farmers, poverty among them was rife, and land was the primary form of wealth.

    Federal programs giving pensions to veteran and their dependents from the Civil War onward was more about poverty relief than anything else.

    Virtually all immigrants in major industrial cities in the mid-to-late 1800s received some sort of welfare (food, rent money, coal) from the political machines of the day. They started getting it the moment they stepped off the boat.

    40 states passed laws between 1900 and 1920 establishing mother's pensions for those without a husband's income.

    So yes, there was.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 12 Jan 18, at 12:03.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I am curious, since Z and I are most likely on opposite ends of the divide, but is "shithole countries" politically incorrect now? I, too have used the term. However, I don't see how Taiwan became a shithole country as it certainly doesn't seem to fit. Besides the fact it wasn't even mentioned. On the other hand North Korea, Yemen, Somalia, Haiti, Sudan and a host of others do fit the bill as they will likely never change in 100 years on their own accord.
    Let's be honest here, those countries are shit holes.

    On the other hand, many good upstanding American citizens today are first, second or third generation immigrants from shit holes of yesteryear.

    Just because you come from a shit hole doesn't mean you don't belong here.

    On the other hand, it doesn't mean you are especially deserving of coming here either. Unless there are special historical reasons (eg: https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/gre...aqi-translator) that pull on many collective heart strings or, I don't see why people from particular countries should be prioritized for immigration.

    The composition of our workforce is also changing. America is not the land of opportunity for blue collar labor that it was. Today we are already having issues with automation displacing workers. There are major problems in the inner cities and rural communities. We have an opinoid epidemic. What are the prospects of someone from a wrecked country with limited education coming into this environment?

    If we are to prioritize people, we need to start prioritizing people based on education and professional skills. I'd take a Haitian doctor who wants to come here any day, but some one with no skills, no secondary education, no English and limited opportunities for integration? I would not be falling over myself to get them in.
    Last edited by citanon; 12 Jan 18, at 08:42.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    The Homestead Act was a welfare program, in an age when 60% of people were farmers, poverty among them was rife, and land was the primary form of wealth.
    Didn't cost the treasury

    Federal programs giving pensions to veteran and their dependents from the Civil War onward was more about poverty relief than anything else.
    Did you really just compare disabled vets with immigrants?

    Virtually all immigrants in major industrial cities in the mid-to-late 1800s received some sort of welfare (food, rent money, coal) from the political machines of the day. They started getting it the moment they stepped off the boat.
    Local politicla machines, not federal.

    40 states passed laws between 1900 and 1920s establishing mother's pensions for those without a father's income.

    So yes, there was.
    Some state and local is all you've shown, not federal welfare.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post

    A lot of people would have said those in Asian NIC countries would likely be peasants mucking around in rice paddies for 100 years. People used to have theories of the "alien" and "impenetrable" mind of the Easterner, impossible to modernize or educate.
    And they were wrong, but the countries do provide a good measure. If a country has had 50+ years to get a functioning civil society and economy going and is still mired in corruption and poverty when others are not then its probably a shithole. Korea and Taiwan ended their colonial eras after been ravaged by war and famine within a decade or so of many African countries and over a hundred years after Haiti. Makes you go hrmmm...

  6. #21
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    It's all welfare, it just doesn't fit your narrative. Where it came from doesn't matter.

    Did you really just compare disabled vets with immigrants?
    No, I didn't. The program was extended later to cover those with 90 days service, irregardless of disability. It was 30% of all government expenditure by 1900. The Social Security system is based on the Civil War pension system.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 12 Jan 18, at 12:37.

  7. #22
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    And they were wrong, but the countries do provide a good measure. If a country has had 50+ years to get a functioning civil society and economy going and is still mired in corruption and poverty when others are not then its probably a shithole. Korea and Taiwan ended their colonial eras after been ravaged by war and famine within a decade or so of many African countries and over a hundred years after Haiti. Makes you go hrmmm...
    South Korea and Taiwan didn't stand alone, they had the US in their corner, a stabilizing influence, and there were considerable outside efforts involved, including strong economic aid, intense infrastructure building, and capital inflows and investment from other countries. And it didn't take just a decade. South Korean kids experiences today are wholly separate from those than their parents.

    Africa got Francafrique and neocolonialism.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 12 Jan 18, at 12:58.

  8. #23
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    It was as poor as some African countries in 1950.
    South Korea was poorer than Pakistan in 1960

    North Korea was richer than South Korea at partition.
    Continued until the late seventies after which the south surged ahead

  9. #24
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    i think i'll address citanon's point, which is roughly where z was getting at, only made in a way that doesn't get me personally so worked up. :-)

    Let's be honest here, those countries are shit holes.

    On the other hand, many good upstanding American citizens today are first, second or third generation immigrants from shit holes of yesteryear.

    Just because you come from a shit hole doesn't mean you don't belong here.

    On the other hand, it doesn't mean you are especially deserving of coming here either. Unless there are special historical reasons (eg: https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/gre...aqi-translator) that pull on many collective heart strings or, I don't see why people from particular countries should be prioritized for immigration.

    The composition of our workforce is also changing. America is not the land of opportunity for blue collar labor that it was. Today we are already having issues with automation displacing workers. There are major problems in the inner cities and rural communities. We have an opinoid epidemic. What are the prospects of someone from a wrecked country with limited education coming into this environment?

    If we are to prioritize people, we need to start prioritizing people based on education and professional skills. I'd take a Haitian doctor who wants to come here any day, but some one with no skills, no secondary education, no English and limited opportunities for integration? I would not be falling over myself to get them in.
    honestly, this sentiment is a good background for a policy negotiation. the US is in a position where given income stagnation and wealth inequality is such that immigrants WILL take some populist heat. it's telling as to the structure of the economic recovery that this populist heat has not subsided by much even with the economy going gangbusters.

    so, if the answer to this is increased* prioritization for immigrants instead of just a straight reduction in immigration levels...that's a trade-off that I can hold my nose and make, seeing as how this is a recognition of the current political reality, given whom is President and which party is currently in control of Congress.

    but, per usual, the thought-out sentiments expressed by citanon were not the sentiments expressed by our Commander-in-Chief. the latter's sentiments are ignorant at best, lumping in all sorts of people as citanon obliquely mentions...and racist at worst. the imputation that if you're from a shithole place you're probably a shit person.

    i don't think it's an accident that Trump got enraged over Haitians, and suddenly pulled out Norway as a counter-example.

    * and note that I said -increased-, because we already DO prioritize: see the EB-5 visa program.
    Last edited by astralis; 12 Jan 18, at 14:08.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  10. #25
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    I think it's pretty clear that Trump is just a racist. This is nothing to do fighting "illegal immigration" - it is unhinged racism plain and simple.

    Any Government employee in most western countries who used such language would be fired. If British PM, a Polish or Ukrainian President said the same thing about any country the calls from abroad and at home for their resignation would be overwhelming. For a start no other leader is going to want to be seen to condone such statements by being friends with you - in this case Trump and his crass administration. I heard he met PM of "Normay" yesterday... to whom he sold some "F-52s" (which apparently only exist some game). Still it all diverts attention from his constant lies about his BFF relationship with the Muscovite kleptocracy and his self enrichment from occupying an elected post to serve others.

  11. #26
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Yeah, most Asian places were shit-holes until, like, 30-40 years ago. We also accepted a lot of European immigrants from places that were shit-holes back in the day (though the income disparity wasn't quite as bad).

    Like, Norway used to be pretty shitty. It also wasn't really a country, but subject to the rule of either Denmark or Sweden. Ireland is another good example. A lot of the Italian immigrants come from Southern Italy, which is STILL a shit-hole....well, not compared to Haiti, but pretty shitty compared to Manhattan.

    There's not really a reason to NOT accept high-skill immigrants from otherwise dirt poor nations. India and Pakistan are good examples. I suppose if you were REALLY committed to halting immigration, and only had VERY few spaces to go around, you might want to prefer immigrants from Norway to immigrants from India if all else were equal, but that's not really sensible.

    Re: low-skill immigration. The old adage about stock investing applies: "past performance does not guarantee future results."
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  12. #27
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Wasn’t it the position of the Democrats, that said that we could not send the illegal Aliens home to their native lands due to the conditions of living there? I guess they are all “racists.”
    One can not eat and have their cake!
    Perspective, people!

    PS, Dick Durbin should be banned from the White House, and didn’t he compare members of the US Military to some of histories biggest genocidal regimes in I believe 2005?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MqIlXfkylD4
    Last edited by surfgun; 12 Jan 18, at 19:38.

  13. #28
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    When my grandparents came to Boston from Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island in the 1900s, they were leaving a definite shithole country. The Maritimes were the Appalachia of Canada...and aren't too much better now.

    As Catholics they faced discrimination. My maternal grandfather spoke on Gaelic. He started as a janitor and ended up teaching at Boston College. My fraternal grandfather was able to get a job mucking out the stables at a firehouse...the same house where he would become the Captain 30 years later. He would serve as a Boston Fireman for 50 years. His two sons served in the Navy...one for 2 years in WW 2 and one for 26 years and going from Seaman Recruit to Commander.

    Some damn good people come from shithole countries.
    We must be...increasingly on the alert to prevent them from taking over other mineshaft space, in order to breed more prodigiously than we do, thus, knocking us out in superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow...a mine shaft gap!
    - General Buck Turgidson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Some damn good people come from shithole countries.
    But then again, you took Celine Dion.

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    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...ng-for-us-with

    Trump questioned why 'pretty Korean lady' analyst wasn't working on North Korea: report
    By John Bowden - 01/12/18 03:10 PM EST

    President Trump questioned why a career intelligence analyst wasn't leading negotiations with North Korea on behalf of the United States because of her Korean heritage, NBC News reported Friday.

    Trump, who was meeting with the analyst as part of a briefing on a family being released by militants in Pakistan, waited until the briefing was over before questioning her where she was from.

    "New York," she replied.

    Trump pressed on, asking her where her "people" are from.

    When the analyst responded that her parents were from South Korea, the president reportedly responded by asking a nearby adviser why the "pretty Korean lady" was not negotiating with North Korea's government on behalf of the Trump administration.


    The analyst, whose name was not released, is reportedly trained in hostage negotiation, not diplomacy.

    NBC's report comes a day after multiple news outlets reported that Trump referred to Haiti, El Salvador and several African nations as "shithole countries" during a Thursday Oval Office meeting with lawmakers on immigration reform.

    “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” Trump asked, according to multiple people briefed on the meeting, before going on to question why the U.S. wasn't admitting more immigrants from countries like Norway instead.

    Trump denied saying “anything derogatory about Haitians other than Haiti is, obviously, a very poor and troubled country” in a pair of tweets Friday morning, and said that while he used “tough” language in the meeting with lawmakers, “this was not the language used.”

    The remarks drew criticism from Democrats, Republicans and media figures, many of whom accused the president of racism.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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