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Thread: Anglia Orientalis

  1. #1
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    Anglia Orientalis

    The 'New England' in Crimea: http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/ano...-nil-in-crimea

    Never heard of this before. I did know some 'English', post Norman conquest, made their way to Constantinople and served in the Varangian Guard, Edgar the Atheling went East again (he was born in Hungary probably) because ironically he was close friends with William (the Bastard's) eldest son Robert of Normandy who went on the First crusade. Never knew of the English settlement in Crimea though - which predating the existence of Moscow presumably gives HMG a superior claim to Crimea than Moscow.

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    So having some time at home among my library and time to look things up online I have been delving into this whole English in Kyiv business. As most know Edward the Exile - the son of Edmund Ironside (who fought Cnut but died before victory was achieved leaving two young sons meaning Cnut became King) - along with his elder Brother (Edmund) was sent to Sweden where Cnut's half brother was King (Olof Skötkonung). Probably the idea was for Olaf to kill them but something went wrong or Olaf had his own ideas and having relatives (his daughter Ingigerd being Queen) in Kyiv he sent the boys there - or they got there somehow. Edward later went to Hungary in 1046 with Ingigerd's daughter (Anastasia of Kiev) who married a then exiled claimant to Hungarian throne who later became Andrew l of Hungary. Edwards Wife Agatha's descent is disputed and cannot be proved but may have been a sister of Anastasia's - another daughter of Yaroslav the Wise of Kiev and his Wife Ingigerd of Sweden (another daughter was that Anna of Kyiv who married Henry l of France). So whoever Agatha was three children were born Edgar 'the Aethling', Margaret (later Saint Margaret of Scotland) and Cristina. The Elder son Edmund Aetheling also married a Hungarian but died soon after, thus when Edward the Confessor was seeking to end the succession problem in the 1050s only Edward and his children returned, Edward the Exile being named heir but dying soon after his return. After Hastings Edwards son Edgar was still young and though briefly proclaimed King when others submitted to William his cause was lost. This is a pretty well known history - at least for me.

    What I did not realise was the later story. So I looked up last night this book by Jonathan Shepard called "The English and Byzantium: A Study of their Role in the Byzantine Army in the Later Eleventh Century... a kind of paper rather than a book first published in 1973. It seems that many Saxon English did escape east - primarily to Denmark being the most likely the invade England - which they did in 1069 and 1075 led by sons of the Danish King (Swein). In particular some of Harold Godwins(ons) children escaped - two sons and a daughter apparently. The sons are recorded as raiding England and Ireland 1068. The daughter, Gytha of Wessex, in 1074 - when King Swein is dying - was betrothed to Vladimir II Monomakh... Prince of Kyiv. Their son - Volodmir's eldest son - inherited and became Mstislav I Vladimirovich the Great, or in Norse Harold II of England. This checks out on every source I can access apart from going to the Unis in Kyiv and asking for the records there - which I will do but not now. Strange things... but it gets stranger. Mstislav I married two times, through his second Wife came Euphrosyne of Kiev who married King Géza II of Hungary and via her Mstislav I, the grandson of Harold (of Hastings) became an ancestor of Edward lll.
    Last edited by snapper; 19 Dec 17, at 19:58.

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    In 1918....this incestuous European saga came to a bloody end......Now its corporations that we have to worry about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So having some time at home among my library and time to look things up online I have been delving into this whole English in Kyiv business. As most know Edward the Exile - the son of Edmund Ironside (who fought Cnut but died before victory was achieved leaving two young sons meaning Cnut became King) - along with his elder Brother (Edmund) was sent to Sweden where Cnut's half brother was King (Olof Skötkonung). Probably the idea was for Olaf to kill them but something went wrong or Olaf had his own ideas and having relatives (his daughter Ingigerd being Queen) in Kyiv he sent the boys there - or they got there somehow. Edward later went to Hungary in 1046 with Ingigerd's daughter (Anastasia of Kiev) who married a then exiled claimant to Hungarian throne who later became Andrew l of Hungary. Edwards Wife Agatha's descent is disputed and cannot be proved but may have been a sister of Anastasia's - another daughter of Yaroslav the Wise of Kiev and his Wife Ingigerd of Sweden (another daughter was that Anna of Kyiv who married Henry l of France). So whoever Agatha was three children were born Edgar 'the Aethling', Margaret (later Saint Margaret of Scotland) and Cristina. The Elder son Edmund Aetheling also married a Hungarian but died soon after, thus when Edward the Confessor was seeking to end the succession problem in the 1050s only Edward and his children returned, Edward the Exile being named heir but dying soon after his return. After Hastings Edwards son Edgar was still young and though briefly proclaimed King when others submitted to William his cause was lost. This is a pretty well known history - at least for me.

    What I did not realise was the later story. So I looked up last night this book by Jonathan Shepard called "The English and Byzantium: A Study of their Role in the Byzantine Army in the Later Eleventh Century... a kind of paper rather than a book first published in 1973. It seems that many Saxon English did escape east - primarily to Denmark being the most likely the invade England - which they did in 1069 and 1075 led by sons of the Danish King (Swein). In particular some of Harold Godwins(ons) children escaped - two sons and a daughter apparently. The sons are recorded as raiding England and Ireland 1068. The daughter, Gytha of Wessex, in 1074 - when King Swein is dying - was betrothed to Vladimir II Monomakh... Prince of Kyiv. Their son - Volodmir's eldest son - inherited and became Mstislav I Vladimirovich the Great, or in Norse Harold II of England. This checks out on every source I can access apart from going to the Unis in Kyiv and asking for the records there - which I will do but not now. Strange things... but it gets stranger. Mstislav I married two times, through his second Wife came Euphrosyne of Kiev who married King Géza II of Hungary and via her Mstislav I, the grandson of Harold (of Hastings) became an ancestor of Edward lll.
    Oh yes, I remember back about a couple years ago, when I was watching the World Without End miniseries, looked up Edward III's ancestry on Wikipedia, and found out about his connection to good ole Harald.

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    Not seen that... will look it up.

    The House of Wessex (Cerdicingas; the founder of the House being Cerdic and the 'ingas' meaning something like 'family of' in old Saxon English), the family of Alfred the Great, Edward the Confessor, Edward the Exile and Edgar the Atheling etc, was returned to the royal line when Henry ll, the first 'Plantagenet', became King. His Mother was the Empress Matilda (or Maude) who was the daughter of Henry l (a son of William the Conqueror) who had married Matilda of Scotland in 1100. This Matilda was the daughter of Malcolm III of Scotland who as I said above married Saint Margaret of Scotland/Wessex and who was the daughter of Edward the Exile.

    It seems almost certain that this was the marriage of Henry l with a Lady representative of the House of Wessex was done on purpose as a way of rejoining the Norman and Wessex families again (previous alliances had been tried; Emma of Normandy had been Edward the Confessors Mother but of course the Confessor died childless). The only son of Henry 1 and Matilda of Scotland/Wessex (the great Grand daughter of Edmund 'Ironside' who fought Cnut) was called "William Ćtheling" (Athelin in modern literature) specifically linking him back to the old House of Wessex. This 'William Athelin' sadly did not make it but went down with what is called the 'White Ship' off Normandy in 1120 having already been made Duke of Normandy. That left his only (legitimate) sister Matilda/Maude who had been married off to Henry V, the Holy Roman Emperor (thus she became known as the Empress Matilda) but Henry V died childless leaving his Wife free to marry again. She married Geoffrey of Anjou (her brother William Adelin has been engaged to Fulk of Anjou's daughter - another Matilda) so it was basically recreating the alliance. When Matilda's (the Empress) Father died a succession crisis and what amounted to a civil war broke out between Matilda (helped by various half brothers and other relations) and Stephen of Blois who was a Grandson of William the Conqueror by his Mother Adela. The Angevins (from Anjou) invaded Normandy and Matilda and half brother Richard fought in England - at one point capturing Stephen and also involving Henry 'FitzEmpress' - the future Henry ll who after the death of his own son Stephen acknowledged as his heir. So while it seems almost certain that William Athelin was meant as a direct uniting move the actual unity was managed 'by providence'.

  6. #6
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    Someone has done an article on all this; https://empr.media/culture/history/a...-the-old-ties/

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