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Thread: Great democracies should also have the world’s greatest militaries

  1. #31
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    An airfield is small fry...How about an entire Army Group in the SE of England that didn't exist....inflatable tanks, trucks and wireless traffic etc FUSAG

    I did and I appreciate what you are saying....But they still didn't find Saddam or Osama and they can't see through brick ...your mobile phone would be a better choice in that regard
    Yeah, lol. I read about that.

    See, what I was arguing was about a piece of land and modern satellite capabilities, and yes decoys can fool the satellite. Overall I agree with you. But are you sure they cannot see through brick? Osama could not be found as he ditched all forms of electronic communications, that is to say Osama went back to the early ages for the love of his life, young wife, sex, porn cds etc. Saddam went inside a fox hole and discontinued communication IIRC, until someone gave him up.

  2. #32
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    While Indian members here might say that Tienamen could never happen in India, there is one kind of event that would cause the Americans to kill any military relationship with India, a nuclear test.

    Indian members should take note when considering the extent of American help and abandonment.
    Your posts make my head go spinning and I just had my morning coffee. ;-)
    I have a question. Since the re-alignment of US and India, say from Bush Jrs term, India has tested so many nuclear capable missiles. NK and Iran too have tested some and so did Pak. Apart from China, why is there no noise from the P4 about India's tests, but they have sharply rebuked the other 3 countries? Does it mean that the US is comfortable with Indian nukes because of democracy, shared values, blah blah. This is something that needs to be understood from a western POV.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Yes they do. Too many decoys will overwhelm CPU processing power in trying to decide which is the real target and which is the fake.
    Fine, but how. Satellite images are processed by super computers now, the algorithms that have been through decades of change.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Yeah, lol. I read about that.

    See, what I was arguing was about a piece of land and modern satellite capabilities, and yes decoys can fool the satellite. Overall I agree with you. But are you sure they cannot see through brick? Osama could not be found as he ditched all forms of electronic communications, that is to say Osama went back to the early ages for the love of his life, young wife, sex, porn cds etc. Saddam went inside a fox hole and discontinued communication IIRC, until someone gave him up.
    Obviously we have radio frequencies and infrared etc that can see what the human eye can not. But no to the best of my knowledge the human eye can not see through a brick wall....Maybe MARVEL know otherwise

  4. #34
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Your posts make my head go spinning and I just had my morning coffee. ;-)
    I have a question. Since the re-alignment of US and India, say from Bush Jrs term, India has tested so many nuclear capable missiles. NK and Iran too have tested some and so did Pak. Apart from China, why is there no noise from the P4 about India's tests, but they have sharply rebuked the other 3 countries? Does it mean that the US is comfortable with Indian nukes because of democracy, shared values, blah blah. This is something that needs to be understood from a western POV.
    India is not considered as a foe by the US. Neither is Pakistan or Israel. The only reason the three got as far and keep what they have and at most get a slap on the wrist for infractions

    That is for the nukes bit.

    We aren't party to the fissile material cutoff agreement yet but joined the MTCR recently

    We don't proliferate. We aren't issuing statements about blowing up cities in other countries or erasing them

    All in all all pretty tame compared to NK & Iran : D
    Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Nov 17, at 03:21.

  5. #35
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Obviously we have radio frequencies and infrared etc that can see what the human eye can not. But no to the best of my knowledge the human eye can not see through a brick wall....Maybe MARVEL know otherwise
    Things are changing. Have a look at the links below.

    New police radars can 'see' inside homes

    My home is not my castle anymore: Technologies that see through the walls

    Killer drones that can see through walls

    Google's Satellites Could Soon See Your Face from Space


    If the technology has been deployed by the police in 2013, then I assume a much better technology has already been deployed by spy satellites a decade earlier i.e. 2003. It's 2017 now, and in these 14 years, a lot of that has changed obviously. These things remain classified, so not much information is out there.

  6. #36
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    The problem with "superman vision" tech is that it generally requires you to be in close proximity to the wall you're trying to see through.

  7. #37
    Senior Contributor anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    I wouldn't hedge by bets on anything the article says unless -

    1. The IN/IAF actually buys Fighters from the US
    2. An Indian AC comes out with cutting edge American tech
    Takeaway comment

    Any long march by the IA into west Pakistan invited the attention from DG pre-80s. Post that, the role has been filled by the Chinese albeit under DGs approval. That means in a two front, IA has to strike both sectors deep and fast before DG can get the time to respond with anything.

    Difference between the cold war and now is that now the Chinese have became actively involved(as the US became in 50-60s) in the power struggle between muslim Pakistan and Hindu India. This strange strategic convergence is inconceivable to the imagination of many 20-30 something indian members who get easily charmed by PR meet and greets.
    Last edited by anil; 18 Nov 17, at 08:49.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Things are changing. Have a look at the links below.

    New police radars can 'see' inside homes

    My home is not my castle anymore: Technologies that see through the walls

    Killer drones that can see through walls

    Google's Satellites Could Soon See Your Face from Space


    If the technology has been deployed by the police in 2013, then I assume a much better technology has already been deployed by spy satellites a decade earlier i.e. 2003. It's 2017 now, and in these 14 years, a lot of that has changed obviously. These things remain classified, so not much information is out there.
    Greater manipulation of Radar (RAdio Detection And Ranging or RAdio Direction And Ranging) is still motion detection. which is basically a reflection of a radio signal to determine size, distance, location and speed....we already know radio waves penetrate walls..otherwise your mobile phone wouldn't work. Perfecting existing technology still doesn't allow the human eye to see through a wall thats all I'm saying.

  9. #39
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    She's talking about what happens once the US agrees to sell us anything. I'm referring to stuff that is off the list and needs to get on the list. Listen to Marshal Mathes

    Gist, or give me a timeframe to listen to Marshal Mathes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Greater manipulation of Radar (RAdio Detection And Ranging or RAdio Direction And Ranging) is still motion detection. which is basically a reflection of a radio signal to determine size, distance, location and speed....we already know radio waves penetrate walls..otherwise your mobile phone wouldn't work. Perfecting existing technology still doesn't allow the human eye to see through a wall thats all I'm saying.
    Yeah, we can agree on that.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Your posts make my head go spinning and I just had my morning coffee. ;-)
    I have a question. Since the re-alignment of US and India, say from Bush Jrs term, India has tested so many nuclear capable missiles. NK and Iran too have tested some and so did Pak. Apart from China, why is there no noise from the P4 about India's tests, but they have sharply rebuked the other 3 countries? Does it mean that the US is comfortable with Indian nukes because of democracy, shared values, blah blah. This is something that needs to be understood from a western POV.
    You're joking, right? The Hyde Act and the new legal wording in the NSG push through by Obama. India tests a nuke and you see things come to a screech halt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Fine, but how. Satellite images are processed by super computers now, the algorithms that have been through decades of change.
    Bribing a janitor is a lot faster and a lot cheaper.

  11. #41
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Gist, or give me a timeframe to listen to Marshal Mathes.
    Listen to the guy sitting to the right of him, he goes on about the tech denial regimes still in place.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    1974 to '98 is 24 years. But the test was due during Narasimha's time, it got put off for various reasons and ended up in '98

    That's twenty years which means we're due a due a test soon to within the next ten

    Oh well, we'll cross that bridge when the times comes
    It will be longer than that. 74 and 98 were test devices, not deployed warheads. Half life and deterioration of compression materials as well as nuts and screws coming unhinge over time, all put into question the reliability of a readied arsenal. The rush to collect warhead deteroriation data was based on 15-20 year old warhead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission which is exactly what happened after the '98 test
    The Hyde Act obligates the US to act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Still. i don't sense a clock ticking like the last two times
    The one way to get around that is to break the warhead back down to its base components and rebuild brand new, meaning, you take the fissile materials, grind it down, and send it through the reactors all over again.

    But that would mean removing the warheads from the arsenal and destroying them before making them new, ie you would lose some warheads for a time.

  13. #43
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    The one way to get around that is to break the warhead back down to its base components and rebuild brand new, meaning, you take the fissile materials, grind it down, and send it through the reactors all over again.

    But that would mean removing the warheads from the arsenal and destroying them before making them new, ie you would lose some warheads for a time.
    They could do that if it isn't happening already. Recycling.

    Not come across this issue mentioned yet but then i've not looked specifically

    Needs a test, no need for a test. I don't know enough. For other countries this was the easiest and best way to do it.

    India, Pakistan & Israel have to figure out other ways. May not be the easiest or the best but if it retains reliability then its good enough. Given our recently declared fondness for Israel i would not be surprised if this topic is being discussed with them. Some people say the Israeli's have seen our nukes already. We've let them into our sanctum sanctorum. Why ? maybe for the issues you mentioned.

    This means the time has come for us to recognise them in public and no longer treat Israel like some mistress we were having an affair with for decades now


    The Hyde Act obligates the US to act.
    Yes, and this was known at the time of the agreement. And as Teresita mentioned, 3 pages of carefully crafted legalese around this too.

    It will be longer than that. 74 and 98 were test devices, not deployed warheads. Half life and deterioration of compression materials as well as nuts and screws coming unhinge over time, all put into question the reliability of a readied arsenal. The rush to collect warhead deteroriation data was based on 15-20 year old warhead.
    Questions the reliability and credibility of our deterrent. Not credible then its not a deterrent

    See, what i recall is if we had to test it would take extenuating circumstances. And its those circumstances that i have trouble imagining.

    We are put into a situation where a demonstration of intent is necessary. Now who is going to force us into that.

    China ? no. The only Chinese that want to march on Delhi are businessmen. Unless you say otherwise there is no nukes involved between India & China. No need.

    Pakistan ? maybe, if they fire one off then we would have to respond. They will only do this if we are about to march on them. They do a demo on their soil. Media goes ape shit. We respond. More screaming media. Maybe we don't respond. If the Paks are about to be over run they could care less about sanctions. The same applies to India, security is threatened to such an extent a demonstration is necessary

    It's only in such a case we have a chance of getting a pass for a test if the test was sufficient to deter a war or bring it to a close
    Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Nov 17, at 16:27.

  14. #44
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You're joking, right? The Hyde Act and the new legal wording in the NSG push through by Obama. India tests a nuke and you see things come to a screech halt.
    Let's leave legality aside for a moment. Now, considering the convergence of mutual interests, is it possible that, say after a decade India does test a nuke, and US gives out a statement condeming the test and leave it there. That is, no sanctions, nothing, much like what's happening now with regard to Indian ballistic missile tests. Afterall, Indian nukes are not meant for Washington, but for Beijing and Rawalpindi.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Bribing a janitor is a lot faster and a lot cheaper.
    Lol. But that is what US does and is good at, they always innovate.

  15. #45
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    China ? no. The only Chinese that want to march on Delhi are businessmen. Unless you say otherwise there is no nukes involved between India & China. No need.
    Yep, the Chinese are not mad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Pakistan ? maybe, if they fire one off then we would have to respond. They will only do this if we are about to march on them. They do a demo on their soil. Media goes ape shit. We respond. More screaming media. Maybe we don't respond. If the Paks are about to be over run they could care less about sanctions. The same applies to India, security is threatened to such an extent a demonstration is necessary

    It's only in such a case we have a chance of getting a pass for a test if the test was sufficient to deter a war or bring it to a close
    Why do you think Pak will use a nuke on its soil if the IA marches into Pak? This is BS propagated by the PA/ISPR and sympathetic western peddlers. PA uses a nuke, gets nuked in kind, and loses control of the billion dollar economy they control. Why would they do that? Anytime, India threatens to do a surgical strike, the PA complains to US to mediate for talks. Their intentions are crystal clear.

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