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Thread: Great democracies should also have the world’s greatest militaries

  1. #16
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    Satellites can be easily fooled with decoys, warehousing, and IR tarps. The best way to fool the birds is to show them what they expect to see. If they expect to see a F-16, show them a cardboard F-16. If they expect to see a warehouse full of stuff, park empty trucks outside an empty warehouse.

  2. #17
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    looking couple of years into the future, it looks like there's more than meets the eyes.
    Looks is the keyword

    This govt is giving them space in exchange for what we want

  3. #18
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    I wouldn't hedge by bets on anything the article says unless -

    1. The IN/IAF actually buys Fighters from the US
    2. An Indian AC comes out with cutting edge American tech
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  4. #19
    Military Professional Deltacamelately's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Colonel,

    You asked what India could bring to the table. Logistics is one area where India could shine supreme, even above Deigo Garcia and one area where the Americans would be comfortable enough to task to India without compromising National Security Assets.

    There is no way Deigo Garcia could dominate in fresh fruits and vegetables over India. You must have experienced times during deployment where it's a toss up which you want more, a shot of scotch or a water melon.
    Sir,

    Like I said there's more than meet the eyes. The USN enjoys similar logistics in some other regional countries as well, but what we don't hear them boasting about is this kind grand designs of making them mighty military powers with US help. Confusing ... if not out right misleading.
    And on the sixth day, God created the Field Artillery...

  5. #20
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    I wouldn't hedge by bets on anything the article says unless -

    1. The IN/IAF actually buys Fighters from the US
    2. An Indian AC comes out with cutting edge American tech
    Exactly what we're trying to get. But the americans still have these defense tech restriction regimes in place that date back to the 70s and is no longer relevant wrt India. it's in direct opposition to what they want to do and where we want to go, together

    So when i hear them say 'great democracies should have the greatest militaries' it signals work is being done on their side to ease those restrictions. More so with a president that wants to sell arms to the world. This is a good opportunity for both

    What have we got from them so far, P9's and some unarmed drones, i think our shopping list is a good deal longer

    but what we don't hear them boasting about is this kind grand designs of making them mighty military powers with US help. Confusing ... if not out right misleading.
    hehe, that's the art of rhetoric, gives us ideas and puts adversaries off balance too : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Nov 17, at 18:09.

  6. #21
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    To what DE said above - Teresita Schaffer on the U.S. Approach to Negotiating with India


  7. #22
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    She's talking about what happens once the US agrees to sell us anything. I'm referring to stuff that is off the list and needs to get on the list. Listen to Marshal Mathes


  8. #23
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    .Many V weapon sites were found using the stereoscope during WW2....There is no denying Technology but there are limits to it depending on weather and decoys etc

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Sir,

    Like I said there's more than meet the eyes. The USN enjoys similar logistics in some other regional countries as well, but what we don't hear them boasting about is this kind grand designs of making them mighty military powers with US help. Confusing ... if not out right misleading.
    Well, in the article the "US having the objective of making India a great power" nonsense was dreamt up by the journalist. The US does not have any objective of making anyone a great power except the US.

    Trump's statement about great democracies having great militaries might have more to do with the fact that LockMart is trying to sell F-16s to the IAF and general Atomics is trying to sell the Avenger. The Americans were locked out of the Indian arms market for so long, while the Russians, French and Brits made hay. They're trying to make up for lost time and money. That's all.
    Last edited by Firestorm; 16 Nov 17, at 20:12.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Satellites can be easily fooled with decoys, warehousing, and IR tarps. The best way to fool the birds is to show them what they expect to see. If they expect to see a F-16, show them a cardboard F-16. If they expect to see a warehouse full of stuff, park empty trucks outside an empty warehouse.
    Yes, my point was about satellite technology over the years.

    In 1942, the Army Built a Decoy Airfield in Virginia to Fool the Luftwaffe


    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    .Many V weapon sites were found using the stereoscope during WW2....There is no denying Technology but there are limits to it depending on weather and decoys etc
    Did you read the links?
    Decoys don't limit a satellites capabilities, it presents a different picture than what is real and on the ground. Satellites can see through everything in any weather, day & night. Decoys were not what you started the discussion with, though I agree with the Colonel that decoys are used to fool satellites. If you have anything else, I would like to read it.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deltacamelately View Post
    Sir,

    Like I said there's more than meet the eyes. The USN enjoys similar logistics in some other regional countries as well, but what we don't hear them boasting about is this kind grand designs of making them mighty military powers with US help. Confusing ... if not out right misleading.
    Colonel,

    I agree with you and would like to offer another perspective. 1980s and 1990s China was a defacto American ally. An American spy station was stationed in China along with a battery of NIKE HERCULES missiles. The Chinese bought a squadron of BLACKHAWKS from the Americans.

    Then Tienamen Square happenned and the resulting boycott began. That event was most tragic and I will not argue otherwise. However, there was nothing illegal about Tienamen Square and nothing that changed the strategic necessities that formulated the Sino-American coalition in the first place. Neither the US nor the world declare Tienamen Square illegal. Martial Law was declared and what did people expect? The students were dictating terms to Li. What did people expect an old warhorse like Deng to do?

    The point I'm trying to make is that a both internationally and domestically legal internal Chinese event caused the Americans to kill a coalition that both sides had spent 20 years to build.

    While Indian members here might say that Tienamen could never happen in India, there is one kind of event that would cause the Americans to kill any military relationship with India, a nuclear test.

    Indian members should take note when considering the extent of American help and abandonment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Decoys don't limit a satellites capabilities, it presents a different picture than what is real and on the ground. Satellites can see through everything in any weather, day & night. Decoys were not what you started the discussion with, though I agree with the Colonel that decoys are used to fool satellites. If you have anything else, I would like to read it.
    Yes they do. Too many decoys will overwhelm CPU processing power in trying to decide which is the real target and which is the fake.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 17 Nov 17, at 18:01.

  12. #27
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    The point I'm trying to make is that a both internationally and domestically legal internal Chinese event caused the Americans to kill a coalition that both sides had spent 20 years to build.

    While Indian members here might say that Tienamen could never happen in India, there is one kind of event that would cause the Americans to kill any military relationship with India, a nuclear test.

    Indian members should take note when considering the extent of American help and abandonment.
    Fine, point taken. India can test and the US reserves the right to respond. That's the understanding around the nuke deal

    Though am finding it difficult to imagine a scenario where India needs to test again in the future. In both cases earlier, the target was the NPT. The world kept saying sign we refused and demonstrated that refusal.

    What more changes will there be now to the NPT

    As for India's nuke abilities, which country that is determined to be nuclear capable test and then declare a moratorium

    No, the right way to go about that is to keep testing and tell the world to get lost like North Korea and stick at it until you do succeed

    We tested to get into the nuke club or retain the option. We have it. Nothing more to prove

    We say we are confident of our deterent, that we are on our way to completing a nuke triad. Who's going to call that bluff anytime soon
    Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Nov 17, at 18:21.

  13. #28
    Senior Contributor Toby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Yes, my point was about satellite technology over the years.

    In 1942, the Army Built a Decoy Airfield in Virginia to Fool the Luftwaffe
    An airfield is small fry...How about an entire Army Group in the SE of England that didn't exist....inflatable tanks, trucks and wireless traffic etc FUSAG



    Did you read the links?
    Decoys don't limit a satellites capabilities, it presents a different picture than what is real and on the ground. Satellites can see through everything in any weather, day & night. Decoys were not what you started the discussion with, though I agree with the Colonel that decoys are used to fool satellites. If you have anything else, I would like to read it
    I did and I appreciate what you are saying....But they still didn't find Saddam or Osama and they can't see through brick ...your mobile phone would be a better choice in that regard

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Though am finding it difficult to imagine a scenario where India needs to test again in the future.
    India will need to test again to determine the viability of her aged arsenal. The reason why the N5 rushed to so many testing just right before the Nuclear Test Ban was to collect the data set needed to verify their aged arsenal.

    India is not at that stage yet. In order to teset for an aged arsenal, you need an aged arsenal.

  15. #30
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    1974 to '98 is 24 years. But the test was due during Narasimha's time, it got put off for various reasons and ended up in '98

    That's twenty years which means we're due a due a test soon to within the next ten

    Oh well, we'll cross that bridge when the times comes

    Easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission which is exactly what happened after the '98 test

    Still. i don't sense a clock ticking like the last two times
    Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Nov 17, at 04:03.

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