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China threatens U.S. Congress for crossing its ‘red line’ on Taiwan

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  • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
    I suppose we'll see what happens in the long run (Zhou Enlai's possibly apocryphal dictum about the French Revolution comes to mind)
    This ?

    http://www.historytoday.com/blog/new...aying-debunked

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    • Thanks, I remembered some famous Chinese quote being an urban legend, but wasn't sure if it was that one.

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      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Does Taiwan agree to your statement ?

        Taiwan considers themselves sovereign. That means territorial waters are 12 nautical miles out. They have an EEZ which will extend much further.




        They won't attack but if a Chinese vessel goes there without informing them first then an intercept would be completely justified.

        Why would they sink it. Depending on how the vessel behaves it will escorted out or towed in

        If it fires then all bets are off


        We will see how this goes. Tsai ing wen likes to turn the heat up now and then. It requires US & China to agree to her games. She is very plucky : )

        Taiwan may consider herself sovereign ,but the rest of the world agrees that it is part of China which means the waters around Taiwan are Chinas sovereign waters.

        Meanwhile Tsai popularity is falling fast and is below Trumps. That must make her a bigger idiot.
        Last edited by Funtastic; 17 Dec 17,, 03:10.

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        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
          Interesting equivalence you made there

          Vietnam’s island building: double-standard or drop in the bucket? | CSIS AMTI | May 16 2016

          China is using Vietnam's activities as cover for their own ie China continues because it says Vietnam is

          Why is Vietnam doing it ? because it won't make a difference.

          Will China suddenly stop as a result of Vietnam stopping : )
          Will Vietnam stop if China Stops?

          What Vietnam is doing in the SCS is that she too regards the Courts ruling about island building with disdain and rightly so.

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          • Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
            Will Vietnam stop if China Stops?
            yes, because then China will then have acceded to the laws of the sea. Course we know they stop when their present objectives have been fulfilled. In which case stopping means nothing

            What Vietnam is doing in the SCS is that she too regards the Courts ruling about island building with disdain and rightly so.
            Vietnam hasn't been taken to court, China has and been ruled against.

            Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
            Taiwan may consider herself sovereign ,but the rest of the world agrees that it is part of China which means the waters around Taiwan are Chinas sovereign waters.
            Has this been tested yet in the present scenario. All depends on how China is perceived or portrayed by the worlds media. Given the mood China's neighbours have right now i'm not so sure China will have the support it thinks it has. China will have to make god with all its neighbours before attempting this. better chance then


            Meanwhile Tsai popularity is falling fast and is below Trumps. That must make her a bigger idiot.
            When are the next elections in Taiwan ?

            things go up and down fast

            If elections were held in the US now, Trump would win again.

            Research by both parties in Aug showed 91% of Americans were happy with their vote and for trump supporters the figure is 96% (only 4% changed their mind)

            That 91% should have been less if approval ratings ie popularity mean anything
            Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Dec 17,, 12:30.

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            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              yes, because then China will then have acceded to the laws of the sea. Course we know they stop when their present objectives have been fulfilled. In which case stopping means nothing


              Vietnam hasn't been taken to court, China has and been ruled against.


              Has this been tested yet in the present scenario. All depends on how China is perceived or portrayed by the worlds media. Given the mood China's neighbours have right now i'm not so sure China will have the support it thinks it has. China will have to make god with all its neighbours before attempting this. better chance then.







              things go up and down fast
              Its not up to the press to decide what constitute soverign waters but united Nation bodies to define, and that has already been established.Falsities by the press seems to be an increassing passtime by Western newspapers.

              America is using Taiwan for its own agenda.Thankfully atleast a sizeable number can seeit.
              If America thought that Taiwan should be an independent country., than it should have persueded Taiwan to take that path years ago. Sure Chiang was a stumbling block but he died in 75 so they still had four years to do something about it.

              All this talk about navy ships visiting Taiwan is more out of pique on Americas part.
              Last edited by Funtastic; 17 Dec 17,, 04:39.

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              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_Navy

                A bit long in the tooth for some assets but I see nothing here that would not scare any Chinese Captain approaching a Taiwanese port uninvited, especially since Capt (N) Desertswo that Chinese ships have very poor damage control systems and cannot take a hit.
                ive read CPN Desert TWO opinions on the Russian SOVS but nothing about the Chinese boats.IN fact I dont think the Russians have much inflence in the late DDGs of the PLAN. Yhey seem more european in looks,

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                • Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
                  Its not up to the press to decide what constitute soverign waters but united Nation bodies to define, and that has already been established.Falsities by the press seems to be an increassing passtime by Western newspapers.
                  I mean the media gives an idea of what the mood is like.

                  America is using Taiwan for its own agenda.Thankfully atleast a sizeable number can seeit.
                  That agenda remains the same since day 1. Bulwark against communists. The defense treaties did not go away once the cold war ended. As if nothing changed in east Asia. Japan, Korea & Taiwan still retain their treaties.

                  If America thought that Taiwan should be an independent country., than it should have persueded Taiwan to take that path years ago. Sure Chiang was a stumbling block but he died in 75 so they still had four years to do something about it.
                  Well if the US recognises one china why do they still have a defense agreement with Taiwan. What does US recognition of one china mean in that case.

                  That they won't support an independent Taiwan.

                  But will support Taiwan if its invaded in the present configuration if the president and congress want to

                  All this talk about navy ships visiting Taiwan is more out of pique on Americas part.
                  Is it just rhetoric. Only talk. Never mind pique. Because what the chinese envoy said is definitely just that
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Dec 17,, 18:35.

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                  • Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
                    ive read CPN Desert TWO opinions on the Russian SOVS but nothing about the Chinese boats.IN fact I dont think the Russians have much inflence in the late DDGs of the PLAN. Yhey seem more european in looks,
                    I don't see a lot of red pipes. Do you?
                    Chimo

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                    • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
                      Thanks, I remembered some famous Chinese quote being an urban legend, but wasn't sure if it was that one.
                      The idea that China is always far sighted and calculating compared to most everybody is pervasive. Now i know where it comes from

                      DOR just doesn't believe it. Watching China's actions over the years i'm inclined to agree.

                      They try all sorts of stuff and see what sticks. Kinda like every body else

                      Visionary leadership excepted but leaders like that are rare for all too
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Dec 17,, 17:25.

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                      • Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
                        Taiwan may consider herself sovereign ,but the rest of the world agrees that it is part of China which means the waters around Taiwan are Chinas sovereign waters.
                        Soverign waters are backed by military force. The ML does not have the military muscle to claim Taiwanese waters. The UN or International Courts do not overrule military might.
                        Chimo

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                        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                          I don't see a lot of red pipes. Do you?
                          Its hard to see any red pipes on the exterior of any stealth designed ship.

                          Meanwhile consider the La Fayette class frigate which the ROCN operates



                          “La Fayette class superstructure is made of light alloy and glass reinforced plastic which allows a reduction in top weight.This provides adequate but sub-optimal resistance to fire.
                          Its weapon system consists of the ChaparalSAM system which is considered obsolete and inadequate for defense against ship and anti ship missiles. and she would be outgunned with her oto Melar 75ml gun. So i dont think a captain of a 54A frigate.52d or 55DDG would be worried if confronted by a ROCN frigate

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                          • Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
                            Its hard to see any red pipes on the exterior of any stealth designed ship.
                            Consider Chinese warship building experience. Damage control philosophies don't appear overnight. They were bored out by years of blood letting experience. To put it simply, the Chinese don't know how to save a ship in the middle of the ocean to get it back into the fight. Meanwhile, the USS YORKTOWN did that three times during the Battle of Midway in WWII. And the best experience the Chinese got was the VARYAG and her damage control was just as lacking. So, no, I don't expect Chinese ships to be anything more than one shot wonders.

                            Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
                            Meanwhile consider the La Fayette class frigate which the ROCN operates

                            “La Fayette class superstructure is made of light alloy and glass reinforced plastic which allows a reduction in top weight.This provides adequate but sub-optimal resistance to fire.
                            Its weapon system consists of the ChaparalSAM system which is considered obsolete and inadequate for defense against ship and anti ship missiles. and she would be outgunned with her oto Melar 75ml gun. So i dont think a captain of a 54A frigate.52d or 55DDG would be worried if confronted by a ROCN frigate
                            Yes, that Captain would. Thing is you really don't understand Western military thought. No one fights alone. That ROCN frigate maybe outgunned but she got an entire shore of land based assets to direct fire onto your 5whatever.

                            There's a hell of a lot more backing up that LAFAYETTE one mile off Taiwanese shores than there is backing up an entire Chinese Naval Task Force sitting one mile off Taiwanese shores.
                            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 20 Dec 17,, 05:06.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Looks like Congress listened and watered down the bill's language? What's Trump likely to do?

                              America Just Quietly Backed Down Against China Again
                              When China complained about a plan for the Navy to make port calls in Taiwan, Congress listened.
                              BY JULIAN G. KU | NOVEMBER 29, 2017, 12:36 PM

                              In June, the Senate Armed Services Committee passed an amendment to the fiscal year 2018 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that would require U.S. Navy warships to conduct port calls in Taiwan — that is, to regularly dock, contrary to current practice, at Taiwanese ports for extended visits. The Chinese government quickly indicated its opposition: The amendment drew “solemn representations” from the ministry of foreign affairs, which denounced the U.S. government’s “erroneous actions on Taiwan-related issues.”

                              I have previously written about how, as a matter of law, Congress almost certainly lacks the constitutional authority to require the president to send the U.S. Navy on port calls to particular countries. But on merit, such port calls are a good idea since they would reassure Taiwan of the U.S. commitment to its security while placing China, which claims Taiwan is part of its own sovereign territory, on the defensive. A U.S. aircraft carrier visiting a Taiwanese port for an extended visit would be a tangible demonstration of the U.S. Navy’s commitment to maintaining a presence in and around Taiwan in the face of growing Chinese naval strength.

                              So there was plenty of reason to support a House version of the 2018 NDAA that would have simply required the secretary of defense to submit a report by fall 2018 on the feasibility of such Taiwan port calls. Such a provision is perfectly constitutional and would send a useful signal to China that the United States takes Taiwan port calls seriously.

                              But China’s opposition may have led to Congress further dilute the already watered-down House version of the “port calls” language. The Senate recently passed a final version of the 2018 NDAA that no longer requires a report but merely expresses the “sense of Congress” that the U.S. should “consider the advisability and feasibility of reestablishing port of call exchanges between the United States navy and the Taiwan navy.” A sense-of-Congress statement is not nothing, but it represents a substantial climb-down from mandating port calls or requiring the Pentagon to report on a plan for them.

                              Port calls in Taiwan are not going to make or break U.S.-Taiwan policy. But it’s notable that Chinese government opposition may have convinced Congress to back offPort calls in Taiwan are not going to make or break U.S.-Taiwan policy. But it’s notable that Chinese government opposition may have convinced Congress to back off its more aggressive support for this idea; it should remind us of the difficulty of managing foreign policy from the legislative branch. As I observed earlier this year, Congress has usefully intervened on Taiwan policy with several bills, including the Taiwan Travel Act and the Taiwan Security Act. But given Congress’s many legislative priorities, these bills are likely to languish in committee. The NDAA, by contrast, must pass every year to authorize military operations, which is why it is so disappointing the more aggressive port call provisions were removed.
                              On the other hand, just as Congress backs off its effort to manage Taiwan policy and push port calls, the Trump administration’s China team may finally be coming together behind the idea. After all, the individual most responsible for promoting the idea of U.S. Navy port calls in Taiwan, Randall Schriver, is likely to soon be confirmed to the position of assistant secretary of defense for Asia-Pacific affairs. In prepared answers to policy questions at his confirmation hearing in November, Schriver reiterated his support for port calls in Taiwan, even though the Pentagon has been neutral on this issue so far:

                              Since we reserve for ourselves the right to define our own One China Policy, commencing U.S. ship visits to Taiwan and vice versa can be included. The benefits of U.S. port calls to Taiwan would fall into the traditional justification for port calls to any other friendly country in the world — rest and relaxation for the sailors (which aids in recruitment and retention); minor repair and maintenance; port familiarization to assist in planning for a known contingency; and to support our political goals of supporting Taiwan and deterring China. If there are alternate views in the Department of Defense, I look forward to learning more about the counter arguments.

                              We will see whether Schriver’s views prevail within the U.S. government, where the State Department is likely to provide an opposing view in deference to what are likely to be vigorous Chinese government protests. But the baton on port calls, and Taiwan policy as a whole, is probably being handed over to the executive branch. For those of us outside the administration, whether such port calls happen will be an interesting signal of Schriver’s influence in shaping U.S.-China policy — and the ultimate direction of that policy in the Trump administration.
                              http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/29/...t-china-again/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by LongLurker View Post
                                Looks like Congress listened and watered down the bill's language? What's Trump likely to do?


                                http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/29/...t-china-again/
                                maybe the Chinese came up with a suitable answer to Trump's pressure tactic. More cooperation from them with NK

                                But the baton on port calls, and Taiwan policy as a whole, is probably being handed over to the executive branch
                                Trump should be happy with that

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