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China threatens U.S. Congress for crossing its ‘red line’ on Taiwan

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  • Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
    In the first instance 99.9% of the countries recognise China and that Taiwan is part of China which means all the waters around Taiwan are consided to be Chinese sovereign waters.
    Does Taiwan agree to your statement ?

    Taiwan considers themselves sovereign. That means territorial waters are 12 nautical miles out. They have an EEZ which will extend much further.

    Now if Taiwan wants to attack a PRC naval ship on peaceful transit through those waters a mile off taiwans coast or temporarily stopped for a valid reason outside iits port, lets say technical engineering prolems and taiwan sinks it, then it should be roundly condemed by the rest of the world.
    They won't attack but if a Chinese vessel goes there without informing them first then an intercept would be completely justified.

    Why would they sink it. Depending on how the vessel behaves it will escorted out or towed in

    If it fires then all bets are off

    In answer to your question, there has been no US naval visit to Taiwan since America recognised China in 1979 and Taiwan ibeing Chinas Sovereign territory
    We will see how this goes. Tsai ing wen likes to turn the heat up now and then. It requires US & China to agree to her games. She is very plucky : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Dec 17,, 02:40.

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    • Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
      by the way the Western countries and its allies that are condenming China for her SCS island building, are noticelibly quient on Vietnams island buildind.Why arent the the U.S running FON OPS against Vietnam. Double standards abounds with the whole issue IMO.
      Interesting equivalence you made there

      Vietnam’s island building: double-standard or drop in the bucket? | CSIS AMTI | May 16 2016

      China is using Vietnam's activities as cover for their own ie China continues because it says Vietnam is

      Why is Vietnam doing it ? because it won't make a difference.

      Will China suddenly stop as a result of Vietnam stopping : )
      Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Dec 17,, 17:26.

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      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        Does Taiwan agree to your statement ?


        They won't attack but if a Chinese vessel goes there without informing them first then an intercept would be completely justified.

        Why would they sink it. Depending on how the vessel behaves it will escorted out or towed in
        How the heck is the ROCN supposed to be able to tow in a PLAN warship (or a Chinese coast guard vessel, for the matter), or get its cooperation to leave? It has about much chance of doing so as a Type 054A FFG has in trying to talk a USN Arleigh Burke DDG from desisting in FONOPS around the Spratlys.

        EDIT: I'm not talking about Funtastic's scenario of the PLAN claiming a SOS, they'll be moving around under their own power. There's no way the ROCN could get the PLAN to do anything the PLAN doesn't want to do.

        We will see how this goes. Tsai ing wen likes to turn the heat up now and then. It requires US & China to agree to her games. She is very plucky : )
        Tsai claiming that her meager FY 18 defense budget increase "is a big step" shows that either she's a worthless idiot, or a lying weasel.
        Last edited by Skywatcher; 16 Dec 17,, 19:41.

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        • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
          How the heck is the ROCN supposed to be able to tow in a PLAN warship (or a Chinese coast guard vessel, for the matter), or get its cooperation to leave? It has about much chance of doing so as a Type 054A FFG has in trying to talk a USN Arleigh Burke DDG from desisting in FONOPS around the Spratlys.

          EDIT: I'm not talking about Funtastic's scenario of the PLAN claiming a SOS, they'll be moving around under their own power. There's no way the ROCN could get the PLAN to do anything the PLAN doesn't want to do.
          Then PLAN ships already pass through Taiwan's territorial waters ? If not what's stopping them then

          Trying to figure out how much is hypothetical (PLAN one mile off Taiwan and nothing happens?) and what is reality but isn't reported


          Tsai claiming that her meager FY 18 defense budget increase "is a big step" shows that either she's a worthless idiot, or a lying weasel.
          She's making waves, people who put her in office wanted that. Anything that makes the CCP squirm : )

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          • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
            How the heck is the ROCN supposed to be able to tow in a PLAN warship (or a Chinese coast guard vessel, for the matter), or get its cooperation to leave?
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_Navy

            A bit long in the tooth for some assets but I see nothing here that would not scare any Chinese Captain approaching a Taiwanese port uninvited, especially since Capt (N) Desertswo that Chinese ships have very poor damage control systems and cannot take a hit.
            Chimo

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            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              Then PLAN ships already pass through Taiwan's territorial waters ? If not what's stopping them then

              Trying to figure out how much is hypothetical (PLAN one mile off Taiwan and nothing happens?) and what is reality but isn't reported
              They haven't done it because there hasn't been a need for the Mainland to escalate things that way.


              She's making waves, people who put her in office wanted that. Anything that makes the CCP squirm : )
              Oh, she's making waves here in DC, in the sense that people are laughing at her for being a free riding paper tiger. One can only imagine what they think of her in Beijing.

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              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_Navy

                A bit long in the tooth for some assets but I see nothing here that would not scare any Chinese Captain approaching a Taiwanese port uninvited, especially since Capt (N) Desertswo that Chinese ships have very poor damage control systems and cannot take a hit.
                It depends on whether or not people credibly believe that Tsai would be willing to give the order to fire (probably not).

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                • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
                  They haven't done it because there hasn't been a need for the Mainland to escalate things that way.
                  Why not ? Aren't they totally in sovereign waters like Funtastic put it

                  If they're not doing it yet there must be a deterrent. What is it

                  This is important or else there would be no need for the USN to re-establish port calls to Taiwan, if its true there hasn't been one since 1979

                  Oh, she's making waves here in DC, in the sense that people are laughing at her for being a free riding paper tiger. One can only imagine what they think of her in Beijing.
                  Only people that matter are her electorate. How she is doing by them

                  She might be more jumpy than usual, in need of regular assurance because of Trump and because of a ten yr long more assertive campaign by China on all its borders.

                  Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
                  It depends on whether or not people credibly believe that Tsai would be willing to give the order to fire (probably not).
                  Whether she gives the order to fire depends on the nature of the approach. If its threatening i see no reason why she would not. There will be much to and fro with the US before that decision because she expects support
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Dec 17,, 22:28.

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                  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    Why not ? Aren't they totally in sovereign waters like Funtastic put it

                    If they're not doing it yet there must be a deterrent. What is it

                    This is important or else there would be no need for the USN to re-establish port calls to Taiwan, if its true there hasn't been one since 1979
                    Because there's no specific need to go inside the 12nm limit (though the increasing balance of power in the Mainland's favor certainly doesn't hurt).

                    The reason the port call thing came up was become someone paid off, I mean hired a lobbyist, to insert language into the 2018 NDAA.

                    Only people that matter are her electorate. How she is doing by them

                    She might be more jumpy than usual, in need of regular assurance because of Trump and because of a ten yr long more assertive campaign by China on all its borders.
                    Her approval ratings are in the 20-30s. There are some reports that the DPP is planning to dump her, though why anyone would want to inherit that situation is beyond me.

                    Whether she gives the order to fire depends on the nature of the approach. If its threatening i see no reason why she would not. There will be much to and fro with the US before that decision because she expects support
                    A Type 054A FFG doing circles near the port of Kaoshiung is going to be embarrassing as hell to her, but it's not a military threat.

                    If the US won't support an independence referendum, they're not going to support her starting WWIII because her polls are tanking.

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                    • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
                      Because there's no specific need to go inside the 12nm limit (though the increasing balance of power in the Mainland's favor certainly doesn't hurt).
                      Maybe you want to say the time isn't right. It will surely happen one day

                      The reason the port call thing came up was become someone paid off, I mean hired a lobbyist, to insert language into the 2018 NDAA.
                      Got her money's worth

                      Her approval ratings are in the 20-30s. There are some reports that the DPP is planning to dump her, though why anyone would want to inherit that situation is beyond me.
                      Then she will remain until the next election


                      A Type 054A FFG doing circles near the port of Kaoshiung is going to be embarrassing as hell to her, but it's not a military threat.
                      And can be dealt with peacefully no ? the ROCN can send their boats to meet & greet. Both sides can spin to their benefit

                      If the US won't support an independence referendum, they're not going to support her starting WWIII because her polls are tanking.
                      No referendum, China does not have to do anything nor the US. The status quo holds

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                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        Maybe you want to say the time isn't right. It will surely happen one day
                        A Cross Straits FONOPS most likely one of those MOOTW options the PLA is keeping for a rainy day.

                        Got her money's worth
                        It depends on whether you think getting 45's attention is a good thing in the long run. After that infamous November phone call last year, Trump then decided in spring that he'd defer to Xi on such future matters. That's not a good trend for Taipei.

                        Then she will remain until the next election
                        Presumably.

                        And can be dealt with peacefully no ? the ROCN can send their boats to meet & greet. Both sides can spin to their benefit
                        Yes, I don't expect anyone to fire on anyone in that situation. But the ensuring media circus in Taiwan alone will more than cancel any psychological boost from a USN port visit (when I was living there, every Taiwanese media outlet, regardless of bipartisan outlook, was at Breitbart levels of hysteria).

                        And of course the deep green politicians will scream at Tsai for not sinking said PLA warship (the TSU and NPP have rather, unconventional (to put it charitably) ideas on security issues) and the KMT will pillory her for putting everyone in 'danger'.

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                        • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
                          A Cross Straits FONOPS most likely one of those MOOTW options the PLA is keeping for a rainy day.
                          If they keep to the intl accepted limits there is no problem but then this FoNOPS would be unnecessary.

                          I meant China taking over the island and reintegrating Taiwan. When the time is right.

                          It depends on whether you think getting 45's attention is a good thing in the long run. After that infamous November phone call last year, Trump then decided in spring that he'd defer to Xi on such future matters. That's not a good trend for Taipei.
                          China didn't know what there were in for with Trump. As it turns out they played to his ego and things are more settled as a result

                          Given what the global times puts out, i cheer every time she pulls this off. This is exactly what needs to happen more often from everyone in the region. Watch China moderate its behaviour after.

                          We would like the China of the 80 - 90's and early 00's back.

                          Yes, I don't expect anyone to fire on anyone in that situation. But the ensuring media circus in Taiwan alone will more than cancel any psychological boost from a USN port visit (when I was living there, every Taiwanese media outlet, regardless of bipartisan outlook, was at Breitbart levels of hysteria).

                          And of course the deep green politicians will scream at Tsai for not sinking said PLA warship (the TSU and NPP have rather, unconventional (to put it charitably) ideas on security issues) and the KMT will pillory her for putting everyone in 'danger'.
                          : )

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                          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post

                            China didn't know what there were in for with Trump. As it turns out they played to his ego and things are more settled as a result

                            Given what the global times puts out, i cheer every time she pulls this off. This is exactly what needs to happen more often from everyone in the region. Watch China moderate its behaviour after.
                            I was talking about Tsai paying Bob Dole to put that plank into the 2016 GOP Presidental Campaign platform. Which led to that phone call, and then Trump realizing that China can 'pay', for the lack of a better term, a lot more than Taiwan can.

                            It would have been better for Tsai to say under the radar and let the established State/DoD bureaucracy handle the whole business, than getting into a geopolitical bidding war with Xi for Trump's favor (though to be fair, nobody thought Trump was going to win back then).

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                            • Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
                              I was talking about Tsai paying Bob Dole to put that plank into the 2016 GOP Presidental Campaign platform. Which led to that phone call, and then Trump realizing that China can 'pay', for the lack of a better term, a lot more than Taiwan can.

                              It would have been better for Tsai to say under the radar and let the established State/DoD bureaucracy handle the whole business, than getting into a geopolitical bidding war with Xi for Trump's favor (though to be fair, nobody thought Trump was going to win back then).
                              She's got balls, that's all i'm saying. She pulls off stunts here and there. Maybe the results aren't there when you see the final score but she's keeping the side up. Maybe some fine tuning required but full marks for effort.

                              Such a small country,

                              Look at the Phillipines, got all walked over, then elects a psychopath. What does Duterte do. Make peace. The Chinese bought Duterte

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                She's got balls, that's all i'm saying. She pulls off stunts here and there. Maybe the results aren't there when you see the final score but she's keeping the side up. Maybe some fine tuning required but full marks for effort.

                                Such a small country,

                                Look at the Phillipines, got all walked over, then elects a psychopath. What does Duterte do. Make peace. The Chinese bought Duterte
                                I suppose we'll see what happens in the long run (Zhou Enlai's possibly apocryphal dictum about the French Revolution comes to mind)

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