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Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

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  • At least, the Pro-NRA crowd on WAB isn't squawking about how important it is for us citizens to bear arms to prevent domestic fascism, or to exert political pressure. That's encouraging frankly.

    Comment


    • P
      Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      As to why semi-autos should be/must be allowed



      We've introduced pigs to this continent. We're the ones who will need to control their numbers and spread.

      And of course, in brown/polar bear country, when being charged by said bear, you don't stop shooting until the bear stops moving. Pray the bear stops moving before you're empty.
      Semi-autos should be allowed for everybody, because of feral pigs in Arkansas? I'm more worried about feral street dogs than pigs, although I don't think I'd want my neighbor packing an AK in suburban Los Angeles to ward off angry golden retrievers.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
        Semi-autos should be allowed for everybody, because of feral pigs in Arkansas?
        Semi-autos should be allowed because there is no justifiable reason to reduce American rights to bear arms.

        Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
        I'm more worried about feral street dogs than pigs, although I don't think I'd want my neighbor packing an AK in suburban Los Angeles to ward off angry golden retrievers.
        In the Middle East, they shoot stray dogs at night as their animal control methodolgy. Poisons are used in others.
        Chimo

        Comment


        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          For the very reason that once legislated, it is near impossible to repeal the law. More often than not, unjust laws are just left on the books and not enforced.

          As for voting rights, there was a movement to deny convicts the right to vote but should you be denied your right to vote simply because you didn't pay child support on time? What crimes should deny you the right to vote? How do you decide?

          Contrary to popular belief, automatic weapons are legally allowed to the US private citizen but the hurdles you have to jump through makes it not worth while; often requiring to invest $100,000+. The people who do it are mostly gunsmiths, logical since you have to consider that both police and the military need people to fix their automatic firearms.

          Both sides want it to be easier, not harder for people to practice their rights. They just choosed which rights to champion for all and which rights to deny others.
          Sir,

          Don't you think that it is hypocrisy to support one side of the spectrum in one issue and the other side in another?

          I am consistent across the board. Deny voting rights for convicts and deny them gun rights.

          Regarding limitations on the 2A, there are restrictions on the 2A across various states, including one that requires registration of semi-auto rifles in CA, none of which have been challenged effectively in the SCOTUS. This shows you that regardless of anyones political opinion, the SCOTUS recognizes limitations on the right to keep and bear arms.
          "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

          Comment


          • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            As to why semi-autos should be/must be allowed



            We've introduced pigs to this continent. We're the ones who will need to control their numbers and spread.

            And of course, in brown/polar bear country, when being charged by said bear, you don't stop shooting until the bear stops moving. Pray the bear stops moving before you're empty.
            Sir,

            I would be happy with the same controls on semi-autos as there are on automatic weapons in the USA.
            "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

            Comment


            • Originally posted by antimony View Post
              Sir,

              Don't you think that it is hypocrisy to support one side of the spectrum in one issue and the other side in another?
              I can see both sides of the arguement.

              Originally posted by antimony View Post
              I am consistent across the board. Deny voting rights for convicts and deny them gun rights.
              Then you're with the Republicans on this issue. Felons are now already denied gun rights and they want to deny them voting rights as well. The Dems, however, and correctly, some crimes do not merit the denial of the vote. You can say, let's restrict this to violent crimes. Well, how about that bar room brawl that you got into and acted in self defence but the cops didn't care and arrested everybody in that brawl.

              Originally posted by antimony View Post
              Regarding limitations on the 2A, there are restrictions on the 2A across various states, including one that requires registration of semi-auto rifles in CA, none of which have been challenged effectively in the SCOTUS. This shows you that regardless of anyones political opinion, the SCOTUS recognizes limitations on the right to keep and bear arms.
              Registration and paperwork is the pervue of the state. There's nothing illegal about that. The worst that would happen is that you'll be fined and if your firearms were used in a crime, they will be confiscated.

              Your right to vote is not dependent upon you just saying you can vote. You've got to register with the voter's office so they know which district you're voting in.

              Bureaucracy is not illegal limitations on your rights.

              Originally posted by antimony View Post
              I would be happy with the same controls on semi-autos as there are on automatic weapons in the USA.
              Not going to happen for a variety of reasons, least of all cost. Before all these procedures came into effect, there were automatic weapons in private hands. All automatic weapons in the US, including Police and military, have to be registered. All these private owners had to get licences to keep their firearms and they did. As of today, one of those licenses is worth $10,000 and that is just for the firearm currently in the licenee's hands and each one of them is worth a fortune. I think a Maxium fetches $30-$40K and a Thompson SMG around $15K.

              The US Government, rightly so, did not even try to confiscate private property. They just made it harder to transfer private property.

              Considering the number of semi-autos out there, you could not even begin to collect the data needed for the registry, never mind those who refused to register. Canada's long gun registry was a waste of time, effort, and most of all, money. It was not uncommon for a rifle serial number to appear 3-4 times because it changed hands and the citizens did everything right. And no one is even talking about confiscating private property, meaning all this effort is for naught. Most pro-gun control advocates states that most citizens would surrender their firearms if it becomes law. Yeah, right. These idiots forgot the myth of the Boston Tea Party that spawned the War of Independence.
              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 21 Feb 18,, 23:59.
              Chimo

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                As to why semi-autos should be/must be allowed



                We've introduced pigs to this continent. We're the ones who will need to control their numbers and spread.

                And of course, in brown/polar bear country, when being charged by said bear, you don't stop shooting until the bear stops moving. Pray the bear stops moving before you're empty.
                Those people in the first few examples are not killing the hogs. They are castrating them. Then turning them loose. Most of the other ones are people hunting with pistols (with a rifle backup)

                There are a lot of wild boar hogs where I live. Hunting season is all year long with no limit. Everyone I know hunts them with a bolt action rifle. 250lb size hogs using everything from a .243 to a 7mm.
                Last edited by Gun Grape; 22 Feb 18,, 02:32.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  The same reason why crazies can vote. It's their right.

                  Americans have gone through wars (Independence and their Civil War) for the right to vote. It's a cultural backlash now to try to deny them the tools that won them that right.

                  Understood,
                  Just a real shame that with all things going wrong in the world, in North America innocent children that don't need to get hurt are robbed of their lives.

                  Comment


                  • Florida takes the lead(Not)

                    Today survivors went to the State House to discuss the shooting and what can be done to protect students.

                    The House introduced a Bill, debated, Voted and it passed. All with the students watching in the gallery

                    They have declared that Porn is a Public health risk. The Congressman that introduced the bill did have to change it from a Public Health Crisis

                    They voted along party lines, 71-36. Republicans, all with A ratings from the NRA, voted not to consider a bill banning large capacity magazines and semiauto assault style rifles.

                    And notice it wasn't a vote to ban, but one to consider.

                    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.74e537c84b5b

                    This is what happened Tuesday in the Florida House of Representatives as students from a high school where 17 people were fatally shot last week descended to urge legislators to take gun control seriously:

                    — Members of the body debated and then voted to declare pornography a “public health risk.”

                    — Members of the body refused to take up a bill to ban assault weapons and large-capacity magazines, with students from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School watching from the gallery. The Parkland, Fla., school is where a former student is accused of walking in and firing on Valentine’s Day. Sheryl Acquarola, a 16-year-old junior who had traveled to Tallahassee with fellow student survivors to speak with government officials, was overcome with emotion, as captured in the photo above.

                    — An aide to a member of the Florida House claimed that two of the Parkland students speaking out on gun violence were “actors” and was fired a short time later.

                    The action — and non-action — occurred six days after the mass shooting at Stoneman Douglas High. In that time, student survivors organized nationwide protests for March 24 and took buses on Tuesday to Tallahassee to urge state officials to take seriously issues they believe contribute to school shootings, including the easy availability of assault weapons and inadequate funding for mental health funding.
                    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/flo...221-story.html

                    Pornography is being declared a health risk by the Florida Legislature.

                    The state's House of Representatives approved the resolution by a voice vote Tuesday, despite some members asking why the topic is being taken up at this time. The resolution was sponsored by Rep. Ross Spano, who is running for attorney general.

                    Spano said there's research showing a connection between pornography use and mental and physical illnesses, forming and maintaining intimate relationships and deviant sexual behavior. The resolution states a need for education, research and policy changes to protect Floridians, especially teenagers, from pornography.

                    House Democrats in committees and on the floor have said the bill is a waste of the Legislature's time and that more important bills and topics need to be heard. During a debate, Rep. Carlos Guillermo Smith asked Spano if pornography has killed or physically injured anyone. He went one step further in asking Spano if pornography has caused any first responders to seek counseling.

                    Spano said he did not know. Smith has had his own bill that would ban assault weapons and large-capacity magazines get stuck in Spano's Criminal Justice Subcommittee.

                    "He was saying porn as a health risk was more important to address here in the Florida Legislature than the epidemic of gun violence," Smith said. "These are there priorities. I don't understand the politics, to be honest, if I'm being honest. I'm not aware there's a base of voters who are losing sleep every night over the epidemic of pornography as a public health crisis."

                    A similar resolution in the state Senate has yet to be heard in a committee.
                    Last edited by Gun Grape; 22 Feb 18,, 02:52.

                    Comment


                    • I can check myself out of a mental health facility at 18 and buy a rifle and all the ammo I want in the State of Florida.

                      But as a 55yr old with no history of mental/medical/law enforcement problems here is a list of things I cannot buy.

                      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida...ase-of-buying/

                      5 things that are more complicated than buying a gun in Florida
                      The 19-year-old accused of killing 17 people on Valentine's Day at his former high school in Parkland, Florida, allegedly bought seven rifles in the last year, a federal law enforcement source has told CBS News. The mass shooting has renewed a nationwide debate about gun ownership, and the lack of restrictions on buying firearms.

                      Police say Nikolas Cruz allegedly used an AR-15 when he opened fire on his teachers and classmates at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. Since 2012, AR-15s have been used in six of the deadliest mass shootings in the country.

                      In Florida, it's easy to purchase any type of gun. According to the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative Action, no license is required to purchase and own a shotgun, a rifle or a handgun. The state does not require owners to register firearms. If you're 18 or older, you can buy as many guns as you want at one time in Florida, according to the NRA.

                      To get an AR-15, gun store owner Moto Adika told CBS News correspondent To get an AR-15, gun store owner Moto Adika told CBS News correspondent Adriana Diaz: "If you are a law-abiding citizen, then we can sell you that gun. The whole process can take no more than 15 minutes."

                      For a lot of gun purchases in Florida, it's an over-the-counter process with few barriers, which contrasts sharply with some other basics, which are increasingly regulated.

                      Cold medicine
                      Don't expect to be able to stockpile Sudafed for your winter sniffles. Florida State law prohibits consumers from purchasing more than nine grams of common cold medication like Sudafed within a 30-day period. It's also illegal to purchase more than three packages at once. This is because the medication contains an ingredient called pseudoephedrine, used to create the illegal drug methamphetamine. In 2016, 327 people died from methamphetamine use in Florida. That same year, 2,559 gun deaths were recorded in the state. You can buy as many guns as you like at one time in Florida — most gun purchases are not registered.

                      In order to purchase common cold medication, like Sudafed, customers are required to show a form of photo identification that proves they are at least 18 years old. Each purchase is recorded within a store's database to monitor the amount sold over the counter.
                      (it actually goes into a State database now.)

                      Marriage license
                      Hoping for a shotgun wedding in Florida? Hold your fire. State residents must either attend a premarital course or wait the mandatory three days before the marriage license takes effect. There is no waiting period for shotgun purchases in Florida but there is a three-day cooling-off period for handgun purchases, and a five-day waiting period for guns like the AR-15 in certain counties. That's waived if you have a concealed carry license.

                      To obtain a marriage license in Florida, both parties must be at least 18 years old. Minors must provide consent from both of their parents or a legal guardian. Photo identification is required for all ages.
                      Out-of-state residents are exempt from the waiting period, so elope there while the going is good.

                      Fertilizer
                      Anyone buying more than 25 pounds of fertilizer is required to register and be screened against a known terrorist list. Yes, fertilizer.

                      So far, so in line with gun purchases. However, there are restrictions on the amount of fertilizer you can purchase in Florida because it contains ammonium nitrate, which, when mixed with other substances, can become explosive. Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh infamously used large quantities of fertilizer to make his bomb, prompting the federal government to clamp down on the sale of the gardening compounds (15 years later).

                      Anti-diarrhea medication
                      Buying large quantities of anti-diarrheal meds? Expect to be put under surveillance in a way that won't happen if you purchase large numbers of firearms. Anyone who bulk-buys anti-diarrhea medication is likely to come under scrutiny by the FDA because the drugs have been abused. In large doses, drugs like Imodium have a similar impact on the body as opiates like heroin. You'll get high, but your bowels will stop moving.

                      In an effort to combat this bizarre sideline in the opioid epidemic, the FDA is asking manufacturers of over-the-counter anti-diarrhea treatments to change the way they package their products, and limit the amount of loperamide going into the medication.

                      Medical marijuana
                      Medical marijuana is available for purchase in Florida, however, it is illegal under federal law. Licensed dispensaries are only allowed to sell medical marijuana to qualified customers.

                      To obtain a medical marijuana card, one must first seek treatment from a physician who will later enter client information into the Medical Marijuana Use Registry.

                      A patient would then need to apply for a Compassionate Use Registry Identification Card. Once approved, the patient would be able to contact a licensed medical marijuana center to fill their order. Then, and only then, can you hope to get your hands on some marijuana. When Florida did its annual tally of deaths caused by drugs in 2016, zero deaths were attributed to marijuana.

                      Last edited by Gun Grape; 22 Feb 18,, 03:05.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        I can see both sides of the argument.

                        Then you're with the Republicans on this issue. Felons are now already denied gun rights and they want to deny them voting rights as well. The Dems, however, and correctly, some crimes do not merit the denial of the vote. You can say, let's restrict this to violent crimes. Well, how about that bar room brawl that you got into and acted in self defence but the cops didn't care and arrested everybody in that brawl.
                        A bar room brawl would be a misdemeanour, hardly merits the convicted felon badge. Having said that, I am quite open in putting everyone from teenage and upwards on a list that watches violent behavior. If you display violent behavior, starting from middle school, you get on this list and you should not be able to buy firearms for the next ten years. So your bar room brawler? Yeah, don't get into a brawl.

                        Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        Registration and paperwork is the pervue of the state. There's nothing illegal about that. The worst that would happen is that you'll be fined and if your firearms were used in a crime, they will be confiscated.
                        I am talking about outright bans, like the '94 ban and the Maryland Assault weapons ban of 2017. The SCOTUS has not challenged those. That means, legally, a ban is possible.

                        Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        Your right to vote is not dependent on you just saying you can vote. You've got to register with the voter's office so they know which district you're voting in.

                        Bureaucracy is not illegal limitations on your rights.
                        If I can show that the bureaucratic procedures and local laws unfairly disadvantage some groups, then yes, I can argue that my voting rights are getting usurped. Look at the recent judgements on gerrymandering and voter identity.

                        Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        Not going to happen for a variety of reasons, least of all cost. Before all these procedures came into effect, there were automatic weapons in private hands. All automatic weapons in the US, including Police and military, have to be registered. All these private owners had to get licences to keep their firearms and they did. As of today, one of those licenses is worth $10,000 and that is just for the firearm currently in the licenee's hands and each one of them is worth a fortune. I think a Maxium fetches $30-$40K and a Thompson SMG around $15K.

                        The US Government, rightly so, did not even try to confiscate private property. They just made it harder to transfer private property.

                        Considering the number of semi-autos out there, you could not even begin to collect the data needed for the registry, never mind those who refused to register. Canada's long gun registry was a waste of time, effort, and most of all, money. It was not uncommon for a rifle serial number to appear 3-4 times because it changed hands and the citizens did everything right. And no one is even talking about confiscating private property, meaning all this effort is for naught. Most pro-gun control advocates states that most citizens would surrender their firearms if it becomes law. Yeah, right. These idiots forgot the myth of the Boston Tea Party that spawned the War of Independence.
                        CA has done it. Nowadays, technology would make this kind of transfer easy. Cars with large VINs change hands all the time, and there are far more cars than guns. Legally, a State government can make shooting on public lands illegal and then use the ranges to enforce registration discipline. If ICE can conduct raids for illegal immigrants, I don't see why th BATF cannot conduct similar raids. They do not need to confiscate anythng or incarcerate anyone, just spot-register the offeinding weapon and give a ticket for infraction.
                        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                          A bar room brawl would be a misdemeanour, hardly merits the convicted felon badge. Having said that, I am quite open in putting everyone from teenage and upwards on a list that watches violent behavior. If you display violent behavior, starting from middle school, you get on this list and you should not be able to buy firearms for the next ten years. So your bar room brawler? Yeah, don't get into a brawl.
                          Should you also be denied the right to vote? Especially if you pay taxes?

                          Originally posted by antimony View Post
                          I am talking about outright bans, like the '94 ban and the Maryland Assault weapons ban of 2017. The SCOTUS has not challenged those. That means, legally, a ban is possible.
                          As far as I'm concerned, these are cosmetic feel good bans. Large capacity magazines and "tacticool" features. The AR15 and AK actions are not banned. 30 round external mags are replaced with an interior mag with external 10 round clips. Thumb holes instead of pistol grip. The actual mechanisms of the firearms were still legal. And nothing about the weapons there were already there. There is no retroactive ban and the then current firearms were grandfathered.

                          Originally posted by antimony View Post
                          If I can show that the bureaucratic procedures and local laws unfairly disadvantage some groups, then yes, I can argue that my voting rights are getting usurped. Look at the recent judgements on gerrymandering and voter identity.
                          Yeah, go ahead and sit through 2000 pages of the most convoluted reading you will ever do.

                          Originally posted by antimony View Post
                          CA has done it. Nowadays, technology would make this kind of transfer easy. Cars with large VINs change hands all the time, and there are far more cars than guns. Legally, a State government can make shooting on public lands illegal and then use the ranges to enforce registration discipline. If ICE can conduct raids for illegal immigrants, I don't see why th BATF cannot conduct similar raids. They do not need to confiscate anythng or incarcerate anyone, just spot-register the offeinding weapon and give a ticket for infraction.
                          I don't know what you're reading but semi-autos are not banned in CA and those that are banned, the usual comestic stuff, the mechanisms are not banned. And all the stuff pre-ban were all grandfathered.

                          Anyone familiar with the AK47 and AR15 would overcome these cosmetic limitations with ease. You might have to reload more but inserting a 10 round clip is not that much of a hindrance. We fought 2 World Wars with 10 round clips.

                          Your car scenario doesn't work. Why? They're all registered from day 1. How many millions of firearms out there and how do you collect that information about who owns what? Decades after they were made.
                          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 22 Feb 18,, 17:10.
                          Chimo

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            250lb size hogs using everything from a .243 to a 7mm.
                            TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY POUNDS? I thought white tail size, 125-150, 175 tops. What do they eat?
                            Chimo

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                            • (one more time)

                              Everything. And thats the problem. Have a pack of these come in your yard and overnight it will look look you ran a plow through it

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                              • God I knew they were a problem but damned! They have no fear of humans? They get that close into a fenced in yard? That would be an acre of crops gone.

                                Your pig?

                                I don't think my dogs could have taken that.
                                Chimo

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