Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

[Gun Grape]

Soft targets for mass killers should have proper security. If teachers volunteer to provide that, they should be given the proper vetting, training and equipment, but the right procedures wrt storing and securing the weapons need to be worked out.

And even the cops haven't figured that out yet.

Feb. 5: Harmony Learning Center in Maplewood, Minnesota . A 3d graded discharged a police officers holstered firearm.


And what level of training would the armed teachers get. Basic marksmanship. (stay in your classroom protect your class and if the shooter enters engage) Or do you train them to HRT standards where they are to engage a shooter in say the cafeteria with lots of kids running in the line of fire?

[Gun Grape]

What are you talking about? How many hours of practice do you need with a .3030 or .223? Or even a .22short? And you know what is scary about lever and bolt actions, far more than automatics? It forces you to make the shot instead of taking the shot. Hell, we don't use handheld autos for the very fact that you can't control the climb. No such thing with lever or bolt actions.

How many rounds does that tube fed lever action hold? or the bolt action rifle? Compare the time difference in reloading one of those and changing a 30 round magazine.

What scares me is what the idiot can do with gasoline.

Not much once the fire system is activated. Killed many in the Daegu Subway. But that was a tightly restricted area with lots of people, restricted egress and no fire suppression/fire extinguishers. Commercial buildings especially schools would be a lot different

[zraver]

that still doesn't answer my question, though.

if "an armed society makes a polite society", and having guns deters murders and crimes, how is it that the country with the highest level of gun ownership and most number of guns isn't the safest society?

the whole point of this arm-a-teacher idea is that by the mere presence of guns, the evil-doer will be at least partially deterred. why is this not working for society as a whole?

It is working though, look where the mass shootings are occuring, where the law says society doesn't have to be polite.

[zraver]

Since you want to go all race and minority, the group that has the most guns (white males) is overly represented in mass shootings, especially school shootings. They are also more likely to run around trees wearing funny clothes. Coincidence?

Actually no. White males make up over 70% of the male population but are only about half of mass shooters. This despite being the group with the most guns.

[Officer of Engineers]

How many rounds does that tube fed lever action hold? or the bolt action rifle? Compare the time difference in reloading one of those and changing a 30 round magazine.

GS,

Antimony was discussing about getting rid of semi-auto altogether as a means to combat mass killings. I was commenting on that this would have very little effect on those who would use firearms to do their mass murders. It's been decades since I've used a .3030 but I seemed to recall SAVAGE had one with a detachable mag. And of course, you can get loads of WWI/WWII bolt action rifles with fast load clips.

Not much once the fire system is activated. Killed many in the Daegu Subway. But that was a tightly restricted area with lots of people, restricted egress and no fire suppression/fire extinguishers. Commercial buildings especially schools would be a lot different

I deliberately left out one ingredient. I don't want to give people ideas but water would be very, very bad.

[zraver]

Does not work. I may meet an Air marshall once in a flight. If I am a student I live, study and work with them 8 hours a day or more. With a few hundred snooping eyes around, not only will students know who these teachers are, they will instagram the exact moment there is an accidental exposure.

They might, they might not, strangers wouldn't. Even if the student turned rampage killer did know who one was there might be more, and they may not encounter them upon entry. If the student was planning on doing a hit on an armed teacher as the kick off event it precludes walking through the doors with a long gun.

The armed shooter, who is a student/teacher/school district official/school employee, conceal carries inside the school. He gets inside the class, shoots the teacher for good measure, closes the door and starts spraying. Please "harden and defend" this situation.

You can't, no one can. The goal is too keep the carnage from spreading.

Wishful thinking much? You are a miitary man, why is it difficult for you to envisage that shooters will take care of the armed folks first? What would you do if you were to attack an armed compound? Also, kids have killed over a pair of shoes, and you are telling me that they would stay off a much more expensive item.

Because in the history of mass shootings in America, only once has the rampage killer sought to engage armed security first. Past is prologue. Yeah there may be another example of where a would be rampage killer would seek out the armed opposition first, but that is not the bulk history.

Also, no teacher volunteered. your move.

Not every flight has an air marshal, the idea is hidden but maybe= deterrence.

Tell that to the teacher, who is now broke while paying legal fees.

Not the way liability for public service workers works. They can't even be sued unless there is a finding of gross negligence.n Ie you have to sue the state first and win a finding of gross negligence before immunity will be waived.

A decent, reliable concealed carry weapon, will be around 500. I would expect at least 4 training sessions a year. Each of those cost anything between 300-500. We are already talking at least 2500 per armed schol employee. I would expect at least 4 per school, given they are not dedicated to the task.

Have local PD or state troopers teach the class.

Let's put it on a refrendum and see who wins. I know how folks in my school district will vote.

Wonder how the parents of dead kids would vote?

[Double Edge]

I did not mean to insult and I spoke with an overly broad brush, so my apologies.

No insult taken. I just wanted to point out how unique the phenomenon is that it never happens even in war torn states

Schools are hard to come by that no student wants to blow them up

[tbm3fan]

And what level of training would the armed teachers get. Basic marksmanship. (stay in your classroom protect your class and if the shooter enters engage) Or do you train them to HRT standards where they are to engage a shooter in say the cafeteria with lots of kids running in the line of fire?

Exactly what I was thinking. Basic skills in holding the weapon correctly. Then basic markmanship with a paper target 20 feet away. Run them through that 4 times a year as was suggested. Sounds great doesn't it. Now I can't find it but there was a study on NYPD officer markmanship, in real life situations, with the suspect at various distances. The one that stood out was that at 20 feet their accuracy was absolutely horrible in the heat of the moment. Take away for the suspect is to turn and run since your odds were very favorable.

So let's conduct a stress test of the teacher. Have their weapon on desk which wouldn't really happen in class. Have the paper target 20 feet away. Then when told "now" to pick up the weapon and turn to fire at the target have an armed person appear out of the blue and fire shots over the head of the teacher while another person screams in their ears like students would do. If they have to do this in real life we might as well make it real shouldn't we? What are the odds the teacher ends up dead moments after their heart rate soars to 170 beats per minute as the adrenaline courses through their body. If on the other hand it was a hallway and the teacher walked out in that physical condition to go hunting how would that end up.

As most know you can't teach stress and how to control it if you have never been through the real thing. I love how teachers will do this and that without taking into account what happens the moment a shot is fired at them suddenly. I understand that first hand after having someone jump out of bushes in front of me and point a gun three feet away at my chest. These are teachers, they pick that field for certain reasons, just like certain people pick law enforcement, and the two are not interchangeable.

[Gun Grape]

They might, they might not, strangers wouldn't. Even if the student turned rampage killer did know who one was there might be more, and they may not encounter them upon entry. If the student was planning on doing a hit on an armed teacher as the kick off event it precludes walking through the doors with a long gun.

An armed security guard (School Resource Officer from the Sheriffs Dept) didn't keep this kid from walking onto school property with a long gun.

Not the way liability for public service workers works. They can't even be sued unless there is a finding of gross negligence.n Ie you have to sue the state first and win a finding of gross negligence before immunity will be waived.

Depending on the training the armed teacher received, it would be easy to show that they had gone "Above the scope of their training" which opens them up for a lawsuit. Its the same as if a First Responder goes beyond their training.

FDLE weapon standards are

Commission’s Approved Course of Fire for the Firearms Qualification Standard

Stage 1 hip position from holster

Stage 2 Two-hand high point from Ready Gun

Using single target from the 1 to 3-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 4 seconds
Repeat one time for a total of 4 rounds

Using single target from the 3-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 1 second
Repeat two times for a total of 6 rounds

Stage 3 Two-hand high point from holster

Stage 4 Two-hand high point from holster

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
2 rounds in 4 seconds from the holster
2 rounds in 4 seconds from ready gun position
2 rounds in 4 seconds from ready gun position

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
3 rounds in 5 seconds.
Repeat one time for a total of 6 rounds

Stage 5 Two-hand high point from holster

Stage 6 Two-hand high point from holster

Using single target from the 7-yard line shoot:
12 rounds in 45 seconds. (Mandatory Reload)

Using single target from the 15-yard line shoot:
6 rounds in 30 seconds.

Passing Score. A passing score is a minimum score of 80%, which is 32 of 40 rounds in the scoring area.
Scoring. The scoring shall be any hit that is inside or touches the exterior scoring line of the 4 and 5 zone of a commercially produced
B-21E target or equivalent Pride Enterprises (P.R.I.D.E.) target.

This is what your local PD or State Trooper is going to teach.

And if you look at police shootings there is a large gap between rounds fired and hits. Now add a bunch of kids to the mix and it would be easy for the defender to cause more damage than the shooter.

Wonder how the parents of dead kids would vote?

If you listen to the Sandy Hook parents and some of the parents in this latest shooting, They don't want more guns in the school. They want less guns, and lower capacity guns in the hands of people that do these shootings.

More guns as the way to fight shootings is like advocating more booze to tackle the problem of DUI

[Gun Grape]

Actually no. White males make up over 70% of the male population but are only about half of mass shooters. This despite being the group with the most guns.

Take out drug and gang related shootings and its almost exclusively white males

[tbm3fan]

Wonder how the parents of dead kids would vote?

Let me guess?
https://thomlangford.com/2015/05/27/...you-should-be/

You do realize that every kid and parent is going to be traumatized by this event and many will need help their entire lifetime. I can easily see kids refusing to set foot in the class room or even the school now. They will suffer from PTSD for a long time. Meanwhile you sit 1000 miles away like an arm chair quarterback.

[citanon]

And even the cops haven't figured that out yet.

Feb. 5: Harmony Learning Center in Maplewood, Minnesota . A 3d graded discharged a police officers holstered firearm.


And what level of training would the armed teachers get. Basic marksmanship. (stay in your classroom protect your class and if the shooter enters engage) Or do you train them to HRT standards where they are to engage a shooter in say the cafeteria with lots of kids running in the line of fire?

A: If you arm the teacher give them an AR or some sort of carbine with a red dot optic and a foregrip. Don't give them a pistol. That's too hard to shoot, too easy to lose track of, too hard to train with and too easy to have an accident with. If you are worried about over-penetration and too much lethality make it something like a 300 black out with subsonic rounds.

B: Look at real life shooting scenarios with these mass shooters and with criminals. These aren't Chuck Norrises. If no one is firing back *bang* *bang* *bang* *bang* cool calm and lethal. As soon as someone shoots back everyone starts crapping their pants, their aim goes to s*** and along with that so does their lethality. In the case of most school shooters as soon as opposition shows up the little f***s go crying in a corner and blow their own brains out.

The lesson here is: the teacher doesn't have to be good, doesn't have to aim well, doesn't even have to clear rooms. All they have to do is two thing:

1. Don't shoot the kids.
2. Put rounds in the vicinity of the active shooter so that the shooter knows other people are shooting back.

That flips the entire dynamic around. Instantly the guy is now thinking about his own survival. He goes from hunter to hunted. He's crapping his pants.

The teachers can also be crapping their own pants, they can not hit a damn thing, they can even accidentally hit a kid, but they would have done their job and bought time for SWAT to show up.

So crucial thing:

They need to engage the guy if he's firing. If he's not firing, he's not killing people; then they don't have to go looking for him, they can wait for help. If he's shooting, they have to be willing to show up and put him under stress of fire.

[Officer of Engineers]

The lesson here is: the teacher doesn't have to be good, doesn't have to aim well, doesn't even have to clear rooms. All they have to do is two thing:

1. Don't shoot the kids.
2. Put rounds in the vicinity of the active shooter so that the shooter knows other people are shooting back.

You're asking way too much for a part time security guard. Even soldiers reving up for deployment gets extensive range time before they're sent out for combat. Target selection would be probamatic and I would count on friendly fire, especially when cops arrive on scene and can't tell bad guys from good.

[Ironduke]

Actually no. White males make up over 70% of the male population but are only about half of mass shooters. This despite being the group with the most guns.

63% and 54%. If you're going to cite statistics, you can't lump in Hispanics with whites in your first statistic when the second statistic you're citing makes a distinction between white and Hispanic.

The mass shooter label itself is vastly overgeneralized. That is why 'active shooter' was defined to distinguish from the more general term 'mass shooter'.

The federal government's definition:

An Active Shooter is an individual actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area; in most cases, active shooters use firearms(s) and there is no pattern or method to their selection of victims.

Under the mass shooter label, active shooters gets lumped in with, for example, gang members who perform hit-and-run drive-bys, yet intends to live and get away with it. Even though multiple people are shot in both scenarios, the motivations behind the acts and the methods used are different and a distinction is warranted. The first is an active shooter, the latter is not.

It is working though, look where the mass shootings are occuring, where the law says society doesn't have to be polite.

Where would that be?

[Bigfella]

I spend a lot of time trying to explain to left wing Australians that America is not at all what they think. So much better in so very many ways. Then I read supposedly rational people advocating for the arming of teachers with anything up to & including AKs & I realize that I am probably wasting my time. You are fucked in ways so deep & so profound that I think some of you have actually lost the ability to see it. Not all, but WAY too many. I cannot tell you how pleased I am that we never have these conversations here.