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Thread: Las Vegas Oct 2017 mass shooting

  1. #61
    Military Professional JCT's Avatar
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    I used to be starkly anti-gun control, but the last few years have caused me to rethink this position. AR-15s and their ilk are really fun to shoot, but what else are they really good for beyond killing people? The round is too light for bigger game and if you need more than a round or two when hunting, you need to spend more time on the range before you hit the woods. Yes, there are uppers with larger calibers, but again, you shouldn't need a magazine of ammo to hunt. The deer do not shoot back. An 'old style' hunting rifle should work just fine and it looks much more elegant. The AR-15 is not a particularly good weapon for home defense, even the sort barreled versions are too long for use inside the house and the rounds travel too far, even after they've hit your perp. I do not see the need for civilians to own one. If you want to shoot one, go to your local range, renting it will probably cost nothing more than buying the ammo (not positive about this - it was true for the 9mm pistol I used on the range.)

    No need for bump stocks - they out to be outlawed as an illegal by-pass of the automatic weapons laws.

    I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country. I'm afraid for my kids at their school - a local middle school kid was arrested for having a 'hit list'. Nothing came out of it, but the kids have passed on persistent rumors that other hit lists have been drawn up, thankfully not at their school.

    We have to do something. We stopped funding local mental hospitals years ago and pushed the disturbed into the streets. Even if we went back, funded the hospitals, put the crazies into them, it wouldn't stop the crimes of passion that are enabled by too easy access to weapons that can easily kill dozens at a time. The assault rifles have to go. Automatic pistols should be heavily regulated and probably left to professional LE only. Let them be found at licensed ranges where people can get 'shoot' out. You can go to the range a lot for the cost of a $1500 AR-15. Let people keep their long rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. That will fulfill basic self-defense, sport, and recreation uses while reducing these tragedies.

  2. #62
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    To put a wrench in that line of thinking: Compare the French and German numbers in that chart.

    Germany at about 30%, France at about 15%. Both numbers include illegally owned weapons btw, at average estimates (20 million for Germany, 10 million for France; legal weapons are 6 million for Germany, 3 million for France). The difference though: In France 2.75 per 100,000 people, or 13.8 per 100,000 firearms die in firearms-related incidents (shot to death or committed suicide using one). In Germany the number is 1.0 per 100,000 people, or 3.15 per 100,000 firearms.

    P.S.: You really don't want to live in France and its one-seventh the per-capita guns.

    France 9.0 suicides + 4.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
    USA 8.2 suicides + 1.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
    Germany 2.9 suicides + 0.3 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
    What surprised me about that graphic wasn't the US but the next five. NZ has more than twice the ownership of Australia.

    Norway, Iceland (!) or Germany & Austria aren't countries i think of as being in the top 5 when it comes to gun ownership

    Look at Israel, right at the bottom
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Feb 18, at 17:42.

  3. #63
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Clearly the solution is to force 7+ million teachers to carry guns, whether they like it or not.
    With most teachers being female, especially at the elementary level, I'm sure they would all be thrilled by that. While at it the rigorous training should be in using the AR-15 in order to combat the firepower some perp brings into the school. They can lean it against their desk at the ready.

    By the way I didn't know that elementary school teachers were all leftists. Did you?

  4. #64
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    Attachment 45388

    you'll need to explain then why we aren't the safest society around then given this.
    Teacher, teacher call on me I know the answer. It is because we don't have enough guns. We need everybody to carry an AR-15 daily.

  5. #65
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCT View Post
    I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country.
    No, it does not even happen there. What took place here does not occur anywhere in the world. A high school kid shooting up his school.

    Think of Beslan or Peshawar those were militants attacking a school. That you don't get in the US and likely never will

  6. #66
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    To put a wrench in that line of thinking: Compare the French and German numbers in that chart.

    Germany at about 30%, France at about 15%. Both numbers include illegally owned weapons btw, at average estimates (20 million for Germany, 10 million for France; legal weapons are 6 million for Germany, 3 million for France). The difference though: In France 2.75 per 100,000 people, or 13.8 per 100,000 firearms die in firearms-related incidents (shot to death or committed suicide using one). In Germany the number is 1.0 per 100,000 people, or 3.15 per 100,000 firearms.

    P.S.: You really don't want to live in France and its one-seventh the per-capita guns.

    France 9.0 suicides + 4.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
    USA 8.2 suicides + 1.8 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
    Germany 2.9 suicides + 0.3 homicides using firearms per 100,000 firearms
    So France is just an outlier. I guess being leftist and drinking Bordeaux is a bad combination?

  7. #67
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCT View Post
    I used to be starkly anti-gun control, but the last few years have caused me to rethink this position. AR-15s and their ilk are really fun to shoot, but what else are they really good for beyond killing people? The round is too light for bigger game and if you need more than a round or two when hunting, you need to spend more time on the range before you hit the woods. Yes, there are uppers with larger calibers, but again, you shouldn't need a magazine of ammo to hunt. The deer do not shoot back. An 'old style' hunting rifle should work just fine and it looks much more elegant. The AR-15 is not a particularly good weapon for home defense, even the sort barreled versions are too long for use inside the house and the rounds travel too far, even after they've hit your perp. I do not see the need for civilians to own one. If you want to shoot one, go to your local range, renting it will probably cost nothing more than buying the ammo (not positive about this - it was true for the 9mm pistol I used on the range.)

    No need for bump stocks - they out to be outlawed as an illegal by-pass of the automatic weapons laws.

    I'm tired of listening to the news about these endless mass shootings. I'm embarrassed that our great country has this problem that is more akin to something that you would see in the Middle East or other 3rd world country. I'm afraid for my kids at their school - a local middle school kid was arrested for having a 'hit list'. Nothing came out of it, but the kids have passed on persistent rumors that other hit lists have been drawn up, thankfully not at their school.

    We have to do something. We stopped funding local mental hospitals years ago and pushed the disturbed into the streets. Even if we went back, funded the hospitals, put the crazies into them, it wouldn't stop the crimes of passion that are enabled by too easy access to weapons that can easily kill dozens at a time. The assault rifles have to go. Automatic pistols should be heavily regulated and probably left to professional LE only. Let them be found at licensed ranges where people can get 'shoot' out. You can go to the range a lot for the cost of a $1500 AR-15. Let people keep their long rifles, revolvers, and shotguns. That will fulfill basic self-defense, sport, and recreation uses while reducing these tragedies.
    Spot on. Only problem is that too many feel that their 2nd Amendment Right, owning an AR-15, trumps the life of a child or 100 children. It is someone else's agony.

  8. #68
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    And yes...as a Trump voter...Trump is an idiot for signing that if it's true. Those with mental illnesses shouldn't be allowed to purchase firearms.
    http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...y-funds-report

    President Trump’s proposed 2019 budget would cut millions of dollars from federal education programs designed to help school districts improve safety and provide mental health assistance in the event of a tragedy.

    The budget proposal, which was unveiled earlier this week by the White House, would reduce funding for national school safety activities by $25 million compared to 2017, Politico reported.

    That reduction would include the elimination of “project prevention grants,” which have helped schools across the country fund conflict resolution programs, prevent bullying and pay for mental health assistance for students.

    Politico reports the budget would also cut the $1 million in funding for the School Emergency Response to Violence (SERV) program, which has previously provided millions in funding to the school district in Newtown, Conn., following the 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  9. #69
    Senior Contributor SteveDaPirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteDreams View Post
    Teachers should have to go through rigorous gun training, and there should be an assessment. Is this Teacher competent enough to use a firearm in a life or death situation. Not every teacher will be, in fact I bet many won't but hopefully enough will be so we don't have 17 dead.
    Not a bad idea, but instead of singling out Teachers or any other non-LEO profession, why not just apply that standard to anyone who wishes to own a firearm instead?

    We make people demonstrate they can meet a minimum standard of competence before they are allowed to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, or fly an airplane, or operate heavy machinery. As someone that owns a number of firearms and shoots regularly, I have no issue at all with requiring a little demonstration of personal responsibility and at least a modicum of competence before someone is allowed operate dangerous equipment of any kind, guns included.
    Last edited by SteveDaPirate; 15 Feb 18, at 23:29.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    Not a bad idea, but instead of singling out Teachers or any other non-LEO profession, why not just apply that standard to anyone who wishes to own a firearm instead?

    We make people demonstrate they can meet a minimum standard of competence before they are allowed to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, or fly an airplane, or operate heavy machinery. As someone that owns a number of firearms and shoots regularly, I have no issue at all with requiring a little demonstration of personal responsibility and at least a modicum of competence before someone is allowed operate dangerous equipment of any kind, guns included.
    Agreed! And more than just proficiency..there should be a judgement/mental litmus test as what a person would and would not do in certain situations, or stressful situations.

    I get the worry from the lefties that more guns is rife for abuses, and things can go bad..real bad.

    There needs to be common sense, and good judgement applied to those who own and carry fire-arms publicly for the protection of the public in the event of a serious or life threatening emergency.

    I'm sure Airline pilots are tested/trained for what they would do, and not do in an emergency situation.
    Last edited by InfiniteDreams; 16 Feb 18, at 00:10.

  11. #71
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteDreams View Post
    No because that would be too much common sense.

    These incidents always occur in places where everyone is defenseless with a few exceptions like Fort Hood.

    These sociopaths rarely ever go anywhere there is a chance they can get their head blown off.

    More guns is the answer not less.

    You get more stories about schools shootings where "Teacher Shot him dead on site"...your going to see less and less of the massacres.

    And the media is also to blame for givings these maniacs their 15 minutes of fame and glory.

    Right now there is probably some other nutjob wants the notoriety that Nikolas Cruz is getting.

    And I'm not even a gun owner.

    Common sense is not so common.

    I can guarantee anyone who is in a classroom, or has a kid in a classroom, and suddenly hears gunshots in the hallway, and had to make the decision at that very second whether or not they want to give the teacher or gun or not.

    How many would say no...let the guy keep shooting...wait for the police...
    Are you saying having armed teachers would solve this problem? Help me understand this a little better - are the teachers allowed to have guns or required to have guns?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Are you saying having armed teachers would solve this problem? Help me understand this a little better - are the teachers allowed to have guns or required to have guns?
    I'm certainly not advocating someone who does not want to carry and use a firearm be forced to do so.

    Teachers should not be 'forced' into this role if they are uncomfortable with it.

    However, those that do want to take up the cause and volunteer, and can also prove themselves proficient (with training & testing), and of sound judgement by all means let them.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    i'm pretty sure a LOT of people would say no, and have the teacher do their job-- secure the classroom and prevent entry by the hostile shooter.
    Yup that should be the first job, but defending people is easier if you have the right tool for the job.

    having sketchily-trained teachers blazing away just when the police arrive on scene, geezus christ, have you thought through the implications of what you're asking for?
    Find volunteers, train them to not be sketchy, maybe make them reserve officers. In all the mass shootings, there is only one that I know of had the shooter taking fire and continuing on. The idea of arming teachers isn't to have a gun fight in a crowded hall (though it couldn't be worse than whats already happening), its to deter the killer by making the target hard instead of soft.

  14. #74
    Senior Contributor antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteDreams View Post
    I'm certainly not advocating someone who does not want to carry and use a firearm be forced to do so.

    Teachers should not be 'forced' into this role if they are uncomfortable with it.

    However, those that do want to take up the cause and volunteer, and can also prove themselves proficient (with training & testing), and of sound judgement by all means let them.
    Several issues

    1. What about schools where no one volunteers? It is not only about being comfortable in handling weapons and being proficient in them. It is also being the first responder and the armed guard in cases like this and that is a lot of responsibility, in addition to teaching. I can see that happen in my schools within our local communities.

    2. Are we saying that we will provide LEO level training for volunteers? That would mean that volunteers need to be physically proficient and be trained to handle myriad active shooter scenarios, including hostage handling. WHat hapens when volunteers cannot prove themselves proficient in these kind of training situations. Do they still get to be the armed guard?

    3. If I know that certain teachers are armed and I am an active shooter, I will go after them first. Hell, a bunch of rough kids can jump any such teacher to get the gun off him to sell it off. Concealed carry holders are taught to be extra vigilant at all times. This will be like walking on a knife's edge, afraid of all shadows.

    4. What happens when a shooting accident happens? who pays for the damages, the teacher or the school district?

    Now if you advocate for armed guards, whose job it is to patrol the school and remain vigilant at all times, I can see that making some sense.
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimony View Post
    Several issues

    1. What about schools where no one volunteers? It is not only about being comfortable in handling weapons and being proficient in them. It is also being the first responder and the armed guard in cases like this and that is a lot of responsibility, in addition to teaching. I can see that happen in my schools within our local communities.
    Just like air marshals you don't know who is armed... maybe its the math teacher, maybe its the janitor you just never know.

    2. Are we saying that we will provide LEO level training for volunteers? That would mean that volunteers need to be physically proficient and be trained to handle myriad active shooter scenarios, including hostage handling. WHat hapens when volunteers cannot prove themselves proficient in these kind of training situations. Do they still get to be the armed guard?
    No, the idea is not to make them a reaction force, but to harden and defend the space where they are. By carrying concealed you harden the target. Retrofit outwardly opening doors with locks and bullet resistant glass to class rooms locked entry ways.

    3. If I know that certain teachers are armed and I am an active shooter, I will go after them first. Hell, a bunch of rough kids can jump any such teacher to get the gun off him to sell it off. Concealed carry holders are taught to be extra vigilant at all times. This will be like walking on a knife's edge, afraid of all shadows.
    Nope, in the history of mass shootings there is only one example of a shooter engaging with security at the start of an attack. Teachers are already targeted off the bat.

    4. What happens when a shooting accident happens? who pays for the damages, the teacher or the school district?
    If no laws were broken, the school, district no different than any other case of accidental injury.

    Now if you advocate for armed guards, whose job it is to patrol the school and remain vigilant at all times, I can see that making some sense.
    Its a matter of cost. You can equip and train and teacher for $1000 a year. A decent security guard would cost north of $60K for one person.
    Last edited by zraver; 16 Feb 18, at 05:05.

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